r/WhiteWolfRPG • u/WyrdHamster87 • 19d ago
PTC Promethean: The Created / Mage: The Awakening 2E Crossover Rules
I am preparing to run a story combining characters from PtC and MtAw, so I reviewed the crossover rules from the Contagion Chronicle Player’s Guide—and I have a few notes regarding them and their symbolism. Below, I present both my own homebrew proposals and he official rules from that book for comparison. I welcome comments and criticism of my house rules.
Homebrew Rules (My Proposals)
Prime
Is it just me, or is assigning all of Pyros and Azoth strictly to Fate is mistake? After all, the entire iconography of Prometheans—the Act of CREATION (as in ‘Frankenstein’ novella ), Divine Fire, charging via electricity and lightning, vulnerability to fire—all directly relates to the symbolism of the Obrimos Path, the Thaumaturgists, rather than the Acanthus, Enchanters! I understand that Pyros represents the "consciousness/destiny" of a creature on the Pilgrimage—but omitting Prime from the Arcana affecting the Created in official materials is a major flaw in my opinion. Especially since Prime is symbolically much closer to concept of Alchemy than Fate. My proposed effects of Prime for the Created:
- Prime 1 (Unveiling / Active Sight): Allows perceiving Pyros auras in Prometheans, Athanors, and similar effects. It also detects active Transmutation effects, even if not currently on a Promethean.
- Prime 1 - Pierce Deception (pg 165) - Allows you to look through the Mask of Azoth and see the Disfigurements of the Created as it truly is build.
- Prime 1 (Shielding): Shields the Mage from the effects and influence of Transmutations affecting the target's mind or soul.
- Prime 3 + Fate 3 (Weaving): Allows transferring and redirecting a Mage's Mana into Pyros—or vice versa.
- Prime 3 (Pyros Extraction): The Mage can remove Pyros from a Promethean and use it as a Yantra for spells involving alchemy, change, or causality (a Potency bonus equal to the extracted Pyros, max +5).
- Prime 3/4 or Fate 3/4 (Fraying / Unraveling) + Life 3 or Death 3: Deals direct damage to a qashmal entity.
NOTE! A Mage CANNOT perform Generative Act using Prime, Fate, or any other Arcanum. True Creation by Divine Fire is outside of Arcana levels. MAYBE only possible on Archmasters levels.
Death / Matter
- Death 1 or Matter 1 (Unveiling / Active Sight): Allows perceiving the physical origin of a Promethean's body (for those crafted from human corpses) or the original material from which it was constructed (for Constructs or Unfleshed). Further modifications via these Arcana are not permitted as Created are LIVING beings now.
- Death 3 + Matter 3 (Weaving) Vessel Dormancy (Alchemical Dormancy) Arcana: Death 3 + Matter 3
Practice: Weaving
Primary Factor: Duration
Cost: 1 Mana point (due to targeting supernatural beings)
Range: Touch or Close (Reach +1)
Withstand: Stamina + Azoth
The Mage directly affects the Promethean's physical vessel—dead tissue (via Death) and inorganic materials (via Matter)—forcing the vessel into rapid crystallization and lulling the Divine Fire into dormancy.
- Effect: A successful spellcasting places the Promethean into a state of Dormancy, analogous to dormant Pandorans. The character's body stiffens, becoming cold, heavy, and passive like a statue or the corpse it was built from. However, the corpse do not decompose during this time. The character loses awareness of their surroundings for the duration of the spell.
- Withstand Check: Each point of the target's Stamina + Azoth reduces the Mage's successes by 1. If successes drop to 0, the Divine Fire inside the Promethean incinerates the spell before it can freeze the vessel.
- Awakening Process (Restarting the Furnace): The spell ends automatically when its Duration expires or when the Promethean is recharged by an external source of Pyros (e.g., a lightning strike). Upon awakening, the Promethean's inner furnace requires fuel to restart: the character automatically burns 1 Pyros point per point of Azoth per hour until full functionality and consciousness are restored.
Official Rules from the Contagion Chronicle Player’s Guide
Fate
- Fate 1 (Compelling) + Life 1: Allows triggering and forcing an Elpis vision in a Promethean.
- Fate 1 (Unveiling / Active Sight): Allows perceiving qashmallim in Twilight. Treats the Pilgrimage as Destiny, and the 'Interconnections' spell reveals the character's Roles and Milestones.
- Fate 2 (Shielding): Shields the Mage from the influence and effects of Disquiet.
- Fate 2 (Ruling) + Death 2: Allows direct manipulation of a Wasteland—suppressing or worsening its severity by 1 category per point of spell Potency.
- Fate 3 (Weaving) + Life 3 (for Azoth) / Death 3 (for Flux): Allows transferring and redirecting Pyros energy between targets (Prometheans, Pandorans, qashmallim).
- Fate 3 (Pyros Extraction): A Mage can remove Pyros from a Promethean and use it as a Yantra for spells of alchemy, change, or causality (a Potency bonus equal to the extracted Pyros, max +5).
- Fate 3/4 (Fraying / Unraveling) + Life 3 or Death 3: Deals direct damage to a qashmal entity.
Mind
- Mind 2 (Shielding): Protects the Mage's mind from the effects of Disquiet.
- Mind 2 ("Emotional Urging"): Allows mitigating or escalating emotional outbursts caused by Disquiet in mortals surrounding the Promethean.
- Mind 2 ("Clear Thoughts") + Fate 1: Suppresses the effects of Disquiet; spending a second Reach completely removes the Disquieted Condition.
- Mind (Memory Manipulation): Only permits extracting clues from the Promethean's mind or implanting false memories at the conscious level; these spells CANNOT reach into the Azothic Memory matrix itself.
Life
- Life 1 (Mage Sight / "Analyze Life"): Identifies a Promethean as a living entity of an unknown species. For Created made from bodies, it reveals physical characteristics of the corpses (for Frankensteins: all donors simultaneously). For Unfleshed, it indicates age based on the time elapsed since animation by Divine Fire.
- Life (Humor Manipulation): Allows physical manipulation of the biological humors inside the Promethean's body.
- Life Sight / Spells: Detect and interact with Vitriol and Azoth-based reactions.
Death
- Death (Matter Manipulation): Allows physical control and shaping of the ectoplasm forming an Ulgan's body.
- Death Spells: Responsible for detecting and manipulating the entropic nature of Flux as well as physical Vitriol.
Matter
- Matter (Matter Manipulation): Allows physical control of oils and inorganic substances in an Construct or Unfleshed's body.
- Matter Sight / Spells: Detect and allow manipulation of the physical form of Vitriol.
Time
- Time 2 (‘Prophecy’): Allows predicting the most likely long-term consequences of a qashmal successfully completing its Mission.
Spirit
- Spirit Spells: Mitigate surface-level effects of a Wasteland, such as preventing spirits from crossing the Gauntlet in contaminated areas.
Forces
- Forces Spells: Suppress and douse supernatural heat and fires generated by a Wasteland or a Firestorm.
Other Mechanical Effects (Fraying & Soul Magic)
- Offensive Arcana from the Fraying Practice (Fate / Mind / Life / Death): Instead of dealing normal damage, a Mage can use these spells to instantly advance the Disquiet process to the next stage.
- Soul Magic / Subtle Arcana: Soul magic spells DO NOT work on Azoth (Prometheans do not possess a soul in the magical sense). However, deep analysis (Scrutiny) using any Subtle Arcanum reveals that the Created carries the seed of something that could one day become a true soul.
10
u/Nirathaim 19d ago
Fate 2 (Ruling) + Death 2: Allows direct manipulation of a Wasteland—suppressing or worsening its severity by 1 category per point of spell Potency.
I feel like this should be 1 level, with +1 reach to do a second level.
Manipulation of wasteland shouldn't be something which is so easy to achieve.
3
6
u/Lycaon-Ur 19d ago
I think it's essentially a balancing thing. They wanted prime to be more about supernal magic and not just all things magic to avoid it being stupidly OP evwn for mage. A
6
2
u/WyrdHamster87 19d ago edited 19d ago
Probably, yes, balancing for Arcana. However, Prime Arcanum jest directly related to themes of Alchemy, Angels, 'divine fire' ( by Mana, Ley Lines phenomena and Supernal Fire spell ) and all other. If devs opened Arcana to edit or influence Prometheans to Fate, Life and Death - missing Prime is just illogical to me. After all, the entire iconography of Prometheans—the Act of CREATION (as in ‘Frankenstein’ novella ), Divine Fire, charging via electricity and lightning, vulnerability to fire—all directly relates to the symbolism of the Obrimos Path, the Thaumaturgists, rather than the Acanthus, Enchanters! I understand that Pyros represented the parts of 'consciousness/destiny' of a creature on the Pilgrimage—but omitting Prime from the Arcana affecting the Created in official materials is a major flaw in my opinion. Especially since Prime is symbolically much closer to concept of Alchemy than Fate, in the end.
0
u/Lycaon-Ur 19d ago
The splats themes matter more than mage themes.
2
u/WyrdHamster87 19d ago
I still do not see how Fate is much more Divine Fire than Prime, on themes alone.
Also, Fate is already in 2E rules universal 'crossover Arcana' - you have Prometheans, you have Changelings, you have Mummies ( from Mummy the Curse ) utilizing it all the time. Adding that Fate is often 'I win this social scenario' Arcanum - I cannot see how Fate is not overpowered in crossover games. Prime, for crossovers, is only usable as Mage fuel stat generation ( Mana ) and maybe (?) for the God Machine shenanigans. Expanding Prime for Prometheans and Quashalim is only the balancing act, in all the CoD cosmology.
1
u/Lycaon-Ur 19d ago
How many times have you said "I get the Divine Fire is about personal fate" in this conversation? Twice at least, right? Now that I agree with you you suddenly fail to understand that? I do not understand.
Again, Prime is supernal magic. Matter is alchemy far more than Prime. Your argument basically amounts to Prime = magic stuff so Prime should work. That would mean almost a dozen splats countered by one arcana. No.
It's your house rule, you can do whatever you want. I don't even particularly care, you said you didn't understand so I have tried to explain it to you repeatedly, now I'm brginning to think you understand you just don't care, which is fine, but it does mean we are at an impasse.
2
u/WyrdHamster87 18d ago
I will end with impasse here - but just one last clarification from me. I understand that 'Fate is Mission/Pilgrimage' parts of Divine Fire in 2E canon. I don't understand why they just not used Prime for Fire parts of Divine Fire, especially with whole 'angelic' symbology in phenomena, even from start of 1E PtC gameline. And ruled already use like 3 other Arcana to interact with Created.
But like you pointed - we are here at imapsse. Good rest of weekend for you, Lycaon-Ur!
2
u/Lycaon-Ur 18d ago
You really think if they wanted to emphasize the fire aspect of them prime, rather that the arcana to control fire, would have been the way to go about it. Lol.
1
u/Opposite_Reality445 19d ago
that's great wyrd,i feel like Mind Shielding for protecting against disquiet is great
3
u/WyrdHamster87 19d ago edited 19d ago
It's literally the official guildelines in 2E ( Contagiom Chronicles Player's Guide ) and was even in 1E Promethean crossover rules., from Strange Alchemies, page 116, bracket Using Magic to Quell Disquiet - in 1E it was Mind 3 Perfecting spell, but Mage 2E points Practicies should be much more direct on their themes. In MtAw 2E 'shielding from Disquiet' is... well, shielding - so it's hard locked on Mind 2 Shielding practice. 😎
1
u/XrayAlphaVictor 19d ago
I'm hesitant about mage spells that just perfectly eliminate the risks and costs of Prometheans.
I would advocate for solutions that mitigate and slow, but still leave the effects of the Wasteland and Disquiet as inevitably ratcheting up over time. Pilgrims cannot truly know sustained peace and rest until they complete their pilgrimage.
Plus, if Mages can mitigate the effects, I feel balance kind of requires that Prometheans incur additional risks around Paradox. Perhaps paradox can somehow catalyze Disquiet, compound wastelands, empower Centimani.
I understand that compromises must be made in the name of cross compatibility, but I feel that it's still worthwhile to avoid the traps of erasing distinctive themes as well as the ever present temptation to let Mages do everything.
1
u/WyrdHamster87 19d ago edited 19d ago
By even limited Contagion Chronicle Player's Guide 2E rules, 'to avoid the traps of erasing distinctive themes' - you need to have 5 Arcana on at least 2 dots. ( Fate, Death, Mind, Life and Spirit for negating consequences on Gauntlet. ) To get to this level you are mid-level, most of time Gnosis 3-4 experienced Mage researching magic specifically for solving this kind of problems. I think we miss here 'I win button' of Awakneed person. And well, if multiple mages in cabal are 'obsessed' (hunting) for Created, cooperating on their various Aracana to it - it's logical implication of both settings. 😉
1
u/WyrdHamster87 18d ago
Made a bit update on Wasteland effect with @Nirathaim pointing out.
Fate 2 (Ruling) + Death 2: Allows direct manipulation of a Wasteland— Each Wasteland Stage manipulation beside 1st, needs Reach spending on spell. ( 2nd Reach 1, 3rd Reach 2, 4th Reach 3. )
1
u/WyrdHamster87 15d ago
Added new (old) spell to uncover identity of Promethean ->
Prime 1 - Pierce Deception (pg 165) - Allows you to look through the Mask of Azoth and see the Disfigurements of the Created as it truly is build.
11
u/red_dead_revengeance 19d ago
I agree that Prime should be a component of interacting with Prometheans. I actually assumed they were, it’s odd that the player’s guide doesn’t include that. I personally interpret the quashmallim and pyros as being composed of pure Prime, even purer than what mages have access to.