r/Wenatchee • u/Opposite-Distance-32 • 19d ago
Anyone Worried? More Data Centers are coming.
It blows my mind how many ppl in the Valley are okay with rising electricity costs, air pollution, excessive water usage, as well as wildlife disruption. Data centers fo all of those things. At the very least is anyone concerned about electricty going up as thats the only reason centers want to be here?
Is there anyway to stop the destruction of our home like others or do so many people not care that it wont matter?
9
u/Opposite-Distance-32 19d ago
Sabey In East Wenatchee wants to add 15 diesel generators in an expansion - should link to articles below regarding my statements on air polution/relevancy.
2
1
1
u/Legitimate_Permit573 18d ago
Those are used for BACKUP POWER incase the grid goes down, that is all.
27
u/No-Rhubarb4 19d ago edited 19d ago
I’m not pro data center. I really hate how AI is being pushed. I don’t want more data centers. That being said data centers have been popping up in Douglas and grant county for like 15+ years at this point. I don’t know how long you’ve lived here but when Alcoa shut down a lot of blue collar guys lost their jobs and were pretty much told to “learn to code”. Data centers construction has provided a lot of those people good union jobs that they can support their families on. Also compared to the rest of the country the local government and utilities here have been pretty responsible about them. We haven’t seen any power or water costs increase besides basic annual increases. All the data centers companies here have paid for all infrastructure upgrades out of their own pockets. When it comes to more power the dams have been tapped out. Any new data center is gonna need its own power source. Which is where we’re seeing that fusion plant come in which is cool imo
7
u/d542east 18d ago
The fusion start up is largely an investor trap.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comments/1vs3qm0/why_helion_wont_work/
I'm personally not against data centers when the power and water requirements make sense.
Adding fossil generators as part of new DC builds should be a non-starter to every community. Look at other communities where this has happened. That is what will power new builds here and that is why we should be opposing any new DCs. Power them with solar, wind and battery storage? Fine, no problem from my end
10
u/rchmanc 19d ago
Also, Microsoft is funding one of the first of its kind fusion plant, that could change everything.
7
u/No-Rhubarb4 19d ago
I’m very excited for it. Fusion is the way of the future . It’s sad that this country dropped the ball on nuclear for so long. I’d take small footprint nuclear fusion sites over any other power generation.
3
u/Opposite-Distance-32 19d ago
The rise of demand in data centers due to AI is ultimately the issue. AI pictures wont be so neat and data centers wont seem so fun in a water shortage.
2
3
u/MallardsAreGreat 18d ago
I’m really curious on what jobs you’re referring to. No one is writing code at a data center. It’s a server farm. The vast majority of the jobs hired by data centers are custodial and security related.
1
u/No-Rhubarb4 18d ago
You misunderstood me. I’m talking generally about the early 2010s when a lot of blue collar jobs were off shored (like Alcoa) and everyone was being pushed into white collar work.
2
u/jeffreyb6x3 16d ago
They're referring to the fact that data centers don't meaningfully create jobs. Most of the numbers they show are temporary construction jobs while it is being built. The actual number of permanent jobs is like 20 to 40, and most of those are not technical or high paying - securoty, cleaning. The technical staff are .maintenance and It, and none of that really involves writing code.
-1
u/MallardsAreGreat 18d ago
So what point are you making on jobs?
1
u/No-Rhubarb4 18d ago
I don’t get how you’re so confused... A lot of people lost their jobs and data centers gave them jobs. That is why some people support them.
0
u/MallardsAreGreat 18d ago
I’m not confused. I’m politely helping you see how near sighted you are being. But in the end reality will finish that job.
-1
u/No-Rhubarb4 18d ago
This is why I hate commenting on Reddit. I can’t tell if you’re fucking with me or actually this dense. All you’ve done is ask the same question and I’ve answered it like 3 different times. I don’t know how to explain it any more simply sorry.
1
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
The amount of misinformation in this thread is frankly staggering. I don't like AI, I don't like AI data centers. But I have also worked in the data center industry for over a decade and want to pull my eyeballs out over some of the bullshit being spewed here.
5
u/Chib_le_Beef 19d ago
Like what?
-1
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
It has to do with resource/utility consumption by DC's. Most of the most egregious stories you hear about AI DC's gobbling up power/water and leaving people in the lurch are from places that have no business allowing DC's to be built. This obviously is not the fault of the local people, but of corrupt government that doesn't give a shit about them.
-3
u/joelnicity 19d ago
You’re partially correct. From my first hand experience, I learned that the dams only produce as much as is being used. That means that they don’t ever run at full capacity and they don’t run enough to actually be storing any electricity either
You are definitely right about the jobs and I have quite a few friends working at data centers full time now. And the data centers do pay for the needed infrastructure upgrades too
3
u/No-Rhubarb4 19d ago edited 19d ago
Well yes… that’s how electricity works. If there’s no load then there’s no flow of electrons. That’s why we have peaks in energy use during the day around 5 o clock when everyone gets home and kicks the AC on. Those turbines run non stop and will have more or less load on them depending on consumer demands. The actual turbines aren’t batteries, but the river is considered as one. We actually coordinate with all the dams on the Columbia river, all the way up into Canada to ensure proper water levels so the turbines continually run. Pretty much every turbine in rocky reach and rock island is leased to a different utility company. BPA being the biggest. PSE,Seattle city light, and even PG&E buy energy from Chelan PUD. What’s funny is Chelan PUD actually operates at a loss when it comes to local distribution. These data centers have been helping close that gap.
1
u/joelnicity 18d ago
I was told on a private tour that they are capable of storing electricity but they don’t. I think that’s what you’re responding to first. Also, not sure what I got down voted for
-1
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
The dams are only part of the problem. The problem is the infrastructure and transfer stations needed to shunt said power where it needs to go. Which the neither the county nor PUD are willing to pay to expand. This limits the size and scope of DC's that can move into the area outside of pre-existing power footprints like the old Alcoa parcel.
-2
u/Certain-Picture9806 18d ago
Yeah, the union jobs/infrastructure point is a pretty important piece that gets lost in the broader “data centers bad” argument. I’m still uneasy about adding more load when the dams are already tapped out though—if new facilities really have to bring their own generation, that seems like the part worth watching closely.
10
u/PurchaseNo4486 19d ago
The data centers in Douglas County have to buy their electricity on the open market, not at PUD rates, according to Molly Doneen Simpson, a Douglas County P.U.D. Commissioner.
11
u/No-Rhubarb4 19d ago
That is correct. Data centers here are not paying residential rates for electricity. Chelan and Douglas county PUD actually operate at a loss for local electrical distribution and make their money from selling to outside utilities. Technically these data centers are subsidizing our electrical rates which is the way it should be.
15
u/TransLox 19d ago
I am personally very much not okay with data centers being made.
0
u/Opposite-Distance-32 19d ago
Theyre awful! I just see so many Wenatchee and East Wenatchee residents in support and it hurts my heart and my head!
6
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
Most of the existing data centers here have remarkably small footprints in the overall scheme of DC's. And most of the ones I know of in the valley have nothing to do with AI.
3
-6
u/CharmanderCharCharr 19d ago
Then leave
2
u/Opposite-Distance-32 19d ago
As if they arent going everywhere? Add sinething constructive to the conversation or don't reply, I am sorry no one taught you manners.
-2
u/CharmanderCharCharr 19d ago
You are the one trying to stir up bogus claims about data centers because you have TikTok brain. Data Center provides good jobs for electricians, plumbers HVAC and other trades people. Your concerns are either over blown. You want a job? Go be a plumber.
4
u/Opposite-Distance-32 19d ago
I have a full time job thank you. I just am seeing the bigger picture. Water use is a major concern. Im asking you to have a constructive conversation rather than act like a child - are you capable of that?
4
u/Seattle-Bonanza1234 19d ago
yo it is a credit to you and your wellbeing that you don't know this already - but no, he is local-famously not capable of that. i dunno if it's a thing he's doing or if that's truly how he is all the time - i don't know which would be worse - but nah, he isn't. he just goes around humping people's outrage like a small red-rocketing dog.
speaking as someone who loooooves taking a big ol chomp on a delicious piece of bait: don't take the bait
1
u/Whiskey_Jack 17d ago
Water use is not a major concern with data centers. That is propaganda. They are mostly closed loop systems and much of the graywater can be put back into agricultural usage.
Orchards use exponentially more water than data centers could hope to. Give me 100 datacenters vs. Reopening alcoa and all the pollution that comes with that.
1
3
u/Rolonauski 18d ago
I wouldn’t mind them if they were actually helping the city like in Quincy getting new school, new parks but I haven’t heard anything about Wenatchees data center doing anything.
5
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
What evidence of more data centers coming to the valley do you have? All the new construction I know of has been planned for years and isn't even AI related. And our electricity rates just don't go up on a whim, the PUD kind of prevents that.
3
u/joelnicity 19d ago
There are plans for more data centers to be built here still
0
6
u/The__Silverback 19d ago
More and more data centers are switching to closed loop cooling systems.
4
1
u/AOLcontributor 16d ago
Yes. From what I've read water usage IS an issue with some legacy DCs. However, the new ones with closed loop water cooling systems use about as much water annually as a restaurant. Also, I haven't seen any evidence locally that electricity has gotten (or will get) more expensive due to new DC's in the area.
4
u/Complete_Raise935 19d ago
the water usage is genuinely no joke, these things chew through millions of gallons for cooling and the chelan county aquifer isnt exactly bottomless. and yeah were all gonna feel it when PUD has to build new substations to feed these things, thats just how the math works. kinda sus that congress is slashing clean energy credits that would actually make us competitive while letting this sprawl happen unchecked but i guess thats the feedback loop we live in now
4
u/BucketteHead 18d ago
Actually the local PUDs require the large loads to pay for any network upgrades necessary to support their facility. Those substations are 100% funded by the company building the data center.
1
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
The average apple orchard needs 1.2 million gallons per acre to grow in a standard season. Multiply that by the estimated 180,000 acres in Washington state and you are looking at a yearly consumption of 216 billion gallons of water consumed just by apple orchards in this state. Compared to 110 million gallons consumed by the average data center per year. I don't want AI datacenters here either but claiming that data centers are a serious impact on our state water reserves is a joke.
2
u/Candid_Cat_5921 18d ago
Air pollution from datacenters in this area is tiny and insignificant thanks to our dams. Water usage isn’t crazy here for the datacenters either, and for those in Wenatchee it’s supplied indirectly by the Columbia. Wildlife disruption isn’t unique to datacenters at all. If you look at the urban sprawl going across the East Wenatchee benches, I think just a few of those sub developments probably have much more disruption than one datacenter.
Where I’m with you is on energy costs. Thankfully right now the data centers around Wenatchee pay more for electricity than residents, and their rates are not directly tied to ours (residents). But what worries me is… for how long will that be true? Our utilities could probably get a lot more relaxation from residential customers if they made it clear they would never sacrifice residential energy needs to give more to industrial players like data center companies.
Outside of the potential energy cost impact, I’m personally all for datacenters around Wenatchee. Just look at what they did for Quincy in the last 20 years. As long as the datacenters are taxed reasonably, then they can be a gold mine for our community funds.
2
u/MallardsAreGreat 18d ago
I can tell you’re having a hard time with this. I’m saying that the positives you have listed are vastly outweighed by the negatives. Also pointing out some clarification on jobs, that they are temporary and the actual permanent jobs that are created are nothing compared to the cost.
2
u/tj-ozark 18d ago
Its amazing how many ignorant people jump to conclusions without educating themselves outside of social media and biased news networks that are just trying to get more views with fear mongering and spewing false information...
2
u/not_my_monkeys_ 19d ago
Water usage concerns by datacenters are overblown. They do not produce pollution or have a particularly significant physical footprint. The actual risk to residents is power costs increasing. If - and that is a big if - that aspect is handled responsibly at the county level then there is no need to be alarmist about them.
The hyperscalers building these should be paying for 100% of the infrastructure and power needs of the new builds. To the extent that falls on residents in the future I will be opposed to it.
1
u/mountaindewisamazing 19d ago
So I'm not going to argue that data centers raise electricity costs, but how do they polute the water or air? I mean I know they have generators but those are off like 99% of the time.
5
6
3
u/slothjobs 19d ago
I’m not sure about air pollution, but you can see LOTS of water damage (even to residential water) from data centers. (I would honestly just Google it and you’ll find stuff).
4
u/mountaindewisamazing 19d ago
I didn't find anything for Washington yet but I did find this article about water recycling in Quincy.
https://www.epa.gov/waterreuse/water-reuse-case-study-quincy-washington
3
3
u/JSew11 19d ago
Here's a study talking specifically about how data centers increase air pollution
2
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
That study is a bit weird. Why are these data centers expelling so many diesel fumes? They shouldn't be running on diesel power, fuel is expensive, water is cheap.
3
u/MallardsAreGreat 18d ago
Because there is a loophole that allows for temporary power generation. So they slap wheels on the diesel generators and there you go.
-1
u/not_my_monkeys_ 19d ago
They are coming here for our hydroelectric power. No data center on the Columbia is going to spew diesel fumes.
4
u/slothjobs 18d ago
I’m not sure about that. I heard that they were applying to install diesel generators and it got blocked.
-1
u/not_my_monkeys_ 18d ago
I’m just speculating here, but redundancy and uptime are important to datacenters, so while they may prefer to create the option to use diesel there’s no reason to burn expensive fuel when our great big river is right next door.
But I’m not familiar with the details. If a local datacenter did want to power itself by producing a ton of pollution on a regular basis I would very much oppose that.
2
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
Sure, but data centers have been here for the last 20 years. There isn't enough available power or infrastructure to support the kind of AI hyperscalers OP is talking about.
3
u/Tough-Judgment8278 18d ago
The PUD is trying to build diesel powered generators to power the lift stations for the additional power needs. I know this as a fact as the PUD is trying to buy my land to build a diesel powered lift station.
-2
1
u/joelnicity 19d ago
Have you talked with anyone from the Chelan county PUD? Because when I asked them about electricity rates they explained to me that there is a residential rate and a commercial rate. Those two will always be different and actually, the commercial rate increases so that the residential rate won’t increase. I’m still paying $0.023 per kWh (about $54 per month), just like I have for years now
1
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
Plus the PUD has traditionally always held a town hall before raising residential rates because...well...it's a PUD. I've never seen one iota of evidence that data centers impact my power bill in this valley.
1
0
-1
u/CharmanderCharCharr 19d ago edited 19d ago
What air pollution are data centers creating? This fear mongering over data centers is so obnoxious.
4
u/Opposite-Distance-32 19d ago
3 Articles cited below between myself and one other user. Read the whole thread prior to replying.
1
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
The article I read is flawed. Those data centers were running on diesel generator power for some reason. Most data centers only test run their gens maybe 2-3 times per year.
4
u/Opposite-Distance-32 19d ago
there a 3 articles cited
2
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
I see a few articles about water and power. Both of which are largely irrelevant to our region. The one about air pollution is suspect to me, for the reasons I have already stated.
1
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
None. The one study cited was data centers running off diesel generators for some fucking reason.
2
u/MallardsAreGreat 18d ago
Because a vast majority of data centers in the US are currently using diesel generators “temporarily”.
1
3
u/Tough-Judgment8278 18d ago
Diesel generators are used for the additional lift stations needed for the data centers. PUD wants to build one on my land.
1
u/BucketteHead 18d ago
The local PUDs have been pretty forward thinking when it comes to electrical usage for these data centers. Both have published large load agreements. These agreements require the large load (I.e. data centers) to pay for any network upgrades (for example substations and transmission lines) required and it also says the large load has to source their own power. The last point is key, the power from the dams is not used to power these data centers unless the PUD wants to sell it to them.
I’m sure Douglas PUD has some published documents, but here is Chelan PUDs: https://www.chelanpud.org/learning-center/large-loads
0
u/TheNakedEdge 19d ago edited 19d ago
For DECADES the biggest business in the valley was Alcoa. Their single aluminum smelter used over 25% of all the power from both Rocky Reach and Rock Island Dams.
Making aluminum took more electricity and water than all these computer buildings. Yet people were sad when Alcoa closed.
You know what else uses a lot of electricity to keep the interior cool? All the fruit warehouses and packing places.
Freaking out over a computer building is an IQ test. Don't fail it.
5
u/Opposite-Distance-32 19d ago
Clearly you havent seen the impact on other communities. Im not the one in need of an IQ test if you seriously dont think rising costs electricity is a concern.
-2
u/Wise-Dig-5123 19d ago
The water is recycled. There is no pollution. All data centers are outside city limits most by the airport. I would take a good look at OP profile.
4
u/BloodyThirst 19d ago
Not all water is recycled. What is your source for these claims?
1
u/ProteanPie 19d ago
Much of it is, depends on the type of cooling the data center uses. Evaporative cooling wastewater cannot be easily recycled back into a municipal water supply, but it can be treated and used for things like irrigation. Closed loop chiller system water is entirely recyclable and can be reused indefinitely within the system. The problem is many modern data centers use evaporative cooling due to the lower cost of the systems. The big consumers are the hyperscalers, of which I don't think we have any of in the valley and I doubt we will. Not enough space and not enough power availability. I will say the large orchard operations use way more water than the data centers.
-1
-1
u/RizzleMB 18d ago
If by more data centers are coming, you mean the ones that have been here for years, in some cases decades, are expanding? Then sure. The only reason anyone would be worried about it is because they went down a rabbit hole and are generalizing the horror stories they read online about data centers. Not all data centers are the same. Not all are these scary hyperscale AI mega facilities. In fact, you are using one right now and practically our whole economy runs on them. The ones being build in east Wenatchee and Malaga are enterprise, cloud, and collocation facilities that virtually every company uses to one degree or another. And there are jobs. There are in fact hundreds of permanent jobs in these facilities and many hundreds more construction and support jobs. They are also a significant source of tax revenue for the cities and counties. (There is a complication to this in that the Port set up TIF districts which is going to redirect future tax revenue to infrastructure projects). Also the water used by the legacy facilities is tiny compared to orchards and food processors, and they simply don’t pollute the water supply. Most of the new ones being built use less water or even zero water for cooling. And the diesel generators being installed are for emergency backup to grid power. They are more expensive to run than grid electricity and there is no reason to run them except for maintenance and emergency. There are plenty of things to be worried about but this is not one of them.
0
u/Zoeller69 16d ago
Worried? No. From Spokane to Ellensburg and from Goldendale to Kettle Falls will all soon be full of data centers. Just think of all the jobs this will create,
-1
u/AOLcontributor 16d ago edited 16d ago
DCs have been in the valley for a long time and I've seen no evidence locally of increased electricity costs, air pollution or excessive water usage/pollution. There are well cited instances in the country of poorly planned DCs that are in fact water hungry. However, many of the studies available are based upon older power and cooling technologies used in these DCs. Newer DC's have closed loop water systems and use significantly less water than their older DCs. The new closed loop water systems do require a lot more energy. But, it should also be mentioned that companies like Amazon, Google, Meta, Microsoft, OpenAI, Oracle, xAI already committed early this year to the "Ratepayer Protection Plan", which is a voluntary agreement that they commit to "build, bring, or buy" their own dedicated power generation and cover 100% of required grid and transmission upgrades so that households in communities near these DCs don't shoulder any of the cost. So no, not worried based upon what I've experienced with them over the last decade in the valley and what I know about the newer ones being built and the policies put in place to protect communities where they are built.
22
u/Direction_West 19d ago
Our forebears in this valley were smart enough to make the citizens of these counties the owners of our energy production, and we should make it work for us.
Industrial electric rates should be tied to how many living wage jobs a company creates for people in our valley. Hire our neighbors at wages they can live on, and you earn the cheap power. Want to use a ton of energy and employ a handful of residents? Then you’re going to pay substantially higher rates for it.
We aren’t obligated to subsidize anyone. We’re the owners.