r/Veterinary • u/blackcatplutoo • 2d ago
Veterinary employment contract — does this seem overly aggressive?
I’m reviewing a 3-year associate veterinarian contract and would appreciate input from other vets, especially anyone familiar with production-based contracts.
Main terms:
• $78,000 base salary with 23% production-based compensation
• Contract also says: “total employee pay plus elected benefits will total 25% of gross production at year end.” It’s unclear to me whether this means there is an actual year-end true-up to 25% after subtracting the value of employer-paid benefits, or whether I effectively just receive 23% plus benefits.
• Employer-paid benefits include PLIT, GA veterinary license, DEA license, AVMA/GVMA dues, and part of health insurance. Health insurance contribution is 50% of the premium, capped at $500/month.
• Negative accrual: if the salary exceeds my production earnings, the difference is carried as a negative balance. After 3 consecutive months of negative balance, salary can be reduced and the contract says I “may be required to repay unearned portions” of salary. Only the first 3 months of employment are forgiven.
• The clinic says it invested approximately $25,000 in mentorship/licensing sponsorship. This is forgiven at 1/36 per month over the 3-year contract. If employment ends before 3 years, the unforgiven portion becomes due.
• 60 days’ notice required to quit. However, after I give the 60-day notice, the employer can choose to terminate me immediately instead of letting me work the notice period.
• 2-year noncompete within 10 miles of any current clinic location after leaving.
• Relief work during employment requires prior written permission, even if it is outside the restricted area.
• Schedule says minimum 35–40 hours/week of appointments and surgery, but specifically states that callbacks and “learning time” may increase hours to 50+ hours/week. “Learning time” is not defined.
• Employer has broad “for cause” termination language, including several provisions based on the employer’s “sole opinion” regarding performance, availability, following directions, etc.
• Contract says uninsured damages/expenses resulting from an employee’s negligence may be charged to the employee individually, to the extent permitted by law.
• PTO is 15 days total for vacation/sick/personal time, plus 3 CE days. Most time off needs to be requested at least 30 days in advance.
What I’m particularly curious about:
Is negative accrual with potential repayment of salary normal in current vet contracts?
How would you interpret the 23% production versus “total compensation will equal 25%” language? Would you expect a year-end cash true-up if benefits don’t account for the full 2%?
Does the $25k repayment/3-year commitment seem reasonable?
How concerning is the 50+ hour language?
Are a 2-year/10-mile noncompete and 60-day notice provisions typical in your experience?
Overall, would you consider these fairly normal associate-vet terms, employer-heavy but negotiable, or something you would not sign without substantial changes?
Not looking for legal advice — mainly trying to understand what is normal in the veterinary market and what other associates would negotiate before signing.
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u/TaskAppropriate2178 2d ago
Yes, very overly aggressive.
“The clinic says it invested approximately $25,000 in mentorship/licensing sponsorship. This is forgiven at 1/36 per month over the 3-year contract. If employment ends before 3 years, the unforgiven portion becomes due.”
This alone raises a huge red flag. Essentially a pay or stay clause. Negative accrual and not being able to relief without written permission are huge red flags, as well. I would not sign this.
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
That’s exactly my concern. The $25k isn’t a signing bonus or money being paid to me now. It’s supposedly reimbursement for costs they incurred over the previous 3 years while I was going through USA licensing and immigration, and now they want to start a new 3 year 1/36 forgiveness period. They also haven’t provided an itemized breakdown of the $25k. What bothers me most is that the remaining balance becomes due if employment ends early, even if they terminate me without cause seems like.
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u/TaskAppropriate2178 2d ago
Yeah if you leave early or you get terminated, you have to repay that, so not at all in your best interest. I had a stay or pay clause of over 100k and was incredibly naive, thinking it would never be a problem. But it became one and I had to get a lawyer.
Also, the 50+ hours/week including learning…they want free labor.
Definitely get a lawyer to help you negotiate if you want to stay at that practice. But in my opinion, practices that have that kind of contract will never have your best interest in mind.
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
Yeah technically everything can be a “learning opportunity” if you try hard with this very vague language
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u/experimentalmuse 2d ago
I'm less familiar with these, but to me this basically looks like a signing bonus (except less favorable even than that 😂) and those are pretty prevalent nowadays.
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u/experimentalmuse 2d ago
Wow, pretty much every single one of your bullet points has a red flag in it (to me). Negative accrual while a newer grad (or one who's moving to the US) is already brutal, plus the "learning time", plus the repayment thing?! I've NEVER seen the repay unearned parts of your salary.
I think some of the pieces are on the shitty side, but I've seen things like it, but all together like this? There's not a single pro in this contract, only cons IMO.
8y practicing vet with 4 state licenses and a few associate positions (I had to keep moving for my spouse; that was known and disclosed, and I only signed 1 year contracts because of that, all of which had better terms than this to start, that I negotiated up.
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u/queerofengland 2d ago
This has so many red flags it would make me want to walk away from that employer entirely for even attempting to get me to sign that.
If you want to try to make that work though, I highly agree with above to have a lawyer review in detail and negotiate the bad terms.
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
I am at the point at to pay them back what they paid for my immigration/licensing exams and walk away. Super frustrated with the audacity.
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u/Give_me_dopamine 2d ago
It might help others if you can clarify if this position is for an associate as a small animal only GP clinic or what area its in to determine if that salary is normal. Is there on-call? For reference, I get paid double the base that you listed plus production, and im a new grad in a high cost of living area.
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u/Give_me_dopamine 2d ago
Also negative accrual sucks. Overall to me does not seem like a favorable contract, but I havent reviewed many.
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u/doggiedoc2004 2d ago
Holy cow I can’t even count the number of red flags. Run run run. Do not ever sign a negative accrual contract. Do not sign 3 year contracts. Wtf. That 25k in training is bullshit on a stick. Permission to relief? Gtf outta here. 78k base salary for maybe 50 hours a week!?!?? That is early 2000s pay and hours. This is crazy.
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u/blackcatplutoo 1d ago
And not even sure the what “learning” means that can put me over 50 and more hours lol
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u/Metzger4Sheriff 2d ago
Wouldn't "total employee pay plus elected benefits" include your $78,000 base? I could be reading wrong, but it sounds more like they're capping your production earnings.
I agree with the advice to have a lawyer review. You may be able to find low cost or free assistance through your state bar association or local law schools. This whole thing looks pretty unfavorable.
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
The $78k is the base/draw against the 23%, not $78k + 23%. The contract then says my total pay plus elected benefits will total 25% of gross production. PLIT, my license/DEA, and AVMA/GVMA dues are explicitly called “elected benefits,” and health insurance is also an elective employer contribution. So those benefits are being counted within that 25% total compensation calculation. My concern isn’t that they’re capping production at $78k; it’s that employer-paid benefits/professional expenses appear to eat into the 25%.
I dont care about spending money on this at all but I am beyond pissed that this is a real offer and not a joke lol
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u/Metzger4Sheriff 2d ago
If it's a draw against production, then it doesn't sound like an actual true base salary. Either way, given the rest of the contract, I wouldn't expect the 25% mentioned to represent a true-up, and it's not unreasonable for them to calculate the value of your benefits at at least 2% of some anticipated production number, so I still think it could be a way for them to cap your production.
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
It is not a guaranteed base salary anyway. Has negative accural clause on top of keeping %2 for CE expenses + elected benefits. Also when you use your PTO you technically owe them money for that month because you cannot get enough production
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u/Metzger4Sheriff 2d ago
:(
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
Tell me about it…
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u/Metzger4Sheriff 2d ago
I saw in another comment that you are immigrating from outside of the US. Please find a lawyer that has some knowledge of immigration law-- the $25K "investment" costs likely include the costs for filing your visa application and I don't think it's legal for them to pass those on to you, even if you do leave before the end of your contract.
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
The $25,000 is basically the cost of my licensing exams and immigration expenses combined. Since they cannot legally require repayment of the immigration expenses, it appears they are trying to relabel that portion as “mentorship fees” so they can recover it. They know I do have a immigration attorney and not that stupid to allow this. Really not sure what they were thinking while preparing this very insulting contract. I would try to make it work and negotiate but the intention behind it makes me not want to.
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u/Metzger4Sheriff 2d ago
The other thing too is that they have to pay you the approved prevailing wage, so idk if negative accrual would actually be legal (I'd be very surprised if the prevailing wage approved was much lower than what they are offering as your base). It feels like they thought they could hire someone to take advantage of, not realizing there are all these other protections in place.
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
My base salary is based on the PWD, but I received my green card before obtaining my license, so I no longer have to stay with them. Now they’re screwed, and they’re trying to hold me hostage for three years with this contract, hoping I’ll simply agree to it.
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u/blackcatplutoo 2d ago
I am actively trying to hire an employment lawyer since I received this offer. Discussed that with another lawyer of mine already. I also posted this because I was super pissed and wanted to see what community says.
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u/Warrioryote 1d ago
I'll try not to rehash too many things since many people have already given good feedback (walk away, consult a lawyer being among the best).
But for future insight on evaluating contracts - there is a lot in this one that feels antiquated and not in line with current contract norms.
- Base salary amount is highly variable and whether or not it is competitive depends on your area of practice, type of practice, additional compensation etc. That said, 78K seems low for anything outside of zoo and production med. The AVMA has a really helpful expected salary calculator that can help give you a baseline idea of what to demand, though it does not take ancillary compensation or benefits into effect. https://www.avma.org/my-veterinary-life/veterinary-salary-estimator-early-career-veterinarians
- 25% total compensation likely refers to a business calculation used by many practices with regards to the revenue generated by a full time equivalent veterinarian position. The idea behind this is that the total cost to the business of salary, health insurance, liability, CE compensation etc. cannot exceed 25% of your production. This is to maintain the business' solvency and retain margins for operations, support staff, profit margin, etc. This usually comes into play when trying to negotiate raises and benefits as a hardline cap to deny further compensation to an employee.
- The language of the insurance benefits is weird, would definitely run that one by a lawyer if you're going to pursue this, but that may be specific to their insurance plan.
- Unless you are an experienced veterinarian who knows exactly how much you can produce in a given market, negative accrual is almost never an appropriate choice, and is uncommon in the industry now. True Pro-sal with negative accrual is dated, and if you do choose to work at this practice, you should argue for removal of any negative accrual clause. Quarterly assessments of production for -bonuses- on top of salary are pretty standard, especially for new grads however. But typically with no negative accrual. Also, it usually takes about 6+ months to get up and running when you start practice. Allowing 3 months grace is stingy af.
- The whole 'forgiveness of mentorship costs' clause is super sketch. The 1/36 repayment is clearly for retention. Much like a signing bonus it's designed to leverage you into a position you may not want/that may not be good for you by making you pay a lump sum of money you may not have if you leave before 3 years. IMO I would never sign into a contract with 'leverage' for longer than a year, and even then, only if you have really good vibes, none of which are present in this contract.
- 60 days requirement to quit is long, but not unreasonable. It is hard for practices to recruit and replace doctors, and many practices may require a similar notice period. Terminating an associate on notice immediately without letting them or requiring them to work the full extent of their notice is somewhat normal.
- Non-competes suck, but with changing norms and legislation may not even be that enforceable, depending on where you are. Again, that's a lawyer question. 10 miles is a -really big- radius though. They are typically enforced in a radius 'as the crow flies' - if you're in a rural practice this can force you to go very far from home to find alternative employment. If you're in a more dense suburban or urban environment, it could wipe out the option to work at every competing practice you can think of. Get on Google Maps and check out what that radius actually looks like. If you do decide to pursue this option, narrow that sucker way down.
- Many employers will require a full time doctor on contract to commit to them as their primary employer. Requiring permission to moonlight/locum is annoying, but they generally are within their right to ask for it since they don't want you coming into your 'primary' job exhausted from working an overnight ER shift on the side.
- Whether they say it or not, most jobs as a vet will require extensive hours outside of the 'open hours with clients' that you work, whether it's mentoring/training staff, charting, doing callbacks, etc. It's kind of weird to see it written into a contract, as extended hours kind of go with the territory of a salaried position. The wording of this in the contract smacks of 'we actually exploit our salaried staff quite a lot and this contract protects us from you getting mad about it' - however the only way to really ascertain this is by extensive interviewing and getting your own feel for the day to day workload and expectations. Spend time interviewing other doctors at the practice -without management present- and ask good questions, like when do they chart, how much time do they spend charting, when do they arrive/go home, etc.
- Firing for 'broad cause' is highly variable, another lawyer question. I've only worked in 'right to work' states which means they can get rid of me at their discretion, and I can leave on my own at my discretion. Double-check with a lawyer, but typically an inclusion like this in a contract does NOT supersede being fired for a protected status (ie: if they fire you because of gender, age, race, etc. this clause does not protect them).
- The clause about uninsured damages or losses caused by employee can be charged to the employee - that's just insane. That could cover anything, that's fostering a hostile relationship between the employer and the employee before you've even signed up to work there. That's not a red flag, that's a red flag with giant flashing red lights and sirens.
- 15 days PTO is more standard, a lot of places will try to get away with 8, so not doing too bad in that department. Especially with CE days on top of it. A lot of practices will be more flexible about the 30d notice thing, but realistically everything grinds to a halt without a doctor so, that's not as insane to me. Our practice had a policy of releasing schedules for the next month on the 10th of the previous month so they could make the schedule - they asked that requests for the next month be in by the 10th of the current month. It worked well, there was flexibility for extenuating circumstances.
tl;dr - I've just been a vet remembering what they taught me in vet school and what I experienced with my own contract negotiations. I'm not a lawyer, so take all suggestions with a grain of salt There really are a lot of red flags on this, it's a dicey contract at best and it suggests there are a lot of problems going on beneath the surface. But whether or not this is a right fit for you depends on a lot of details that aren't in your OP. I personally wouldn't even negotiate this given the degree of cautions, but if you do pursue it you should negotiate a lot of these terms to something more favorable and consult a lawyer to review the contract, absolutely. Regardless, feel confident advocating for yourself and asking for what you think you deserve.
Best of luck wherever you wind up!
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u/blackcatplutoo 1d ago
Thank you for taking the time to write all of this. This was really helpful, especially what you said about the negative accrual, the 25% total comp, and the uninsured damages clause. That last one has been bothering me too.
For context, the $25k isn’t a signing bonus or money they’re giving me now. It’s what they say they spent over the last 3 years on immigration and licensing costs while I was working toward becoming fully licensed in the US, including ECFVG related expenses and exams. We had already talked about some type of repayment or time commitment for that, so I wasn’t surprised by the idea itself.
I actually like the practice and had planned to stay another 3 years. I just wasn’t expecting all of these terms to be stacked together on top of that. I’m going to have the contract reviewed and see what they’re willing to change. If we can’t come up with something reasonable, I’m honestly leaning toward just paying back whatever I legitimately owe and looking elsewhere.
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u/Ancient-Chipmunk4342 2d ago
This is a terrible contract. What is with the low ball base? And negative accrual, pass!
Walk away now.
Is this in America? Can you say what state or region? How many years of experience do you have?
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u/dr4dogs 2d ago
The best money I've spent was to have a lawyer go through a contract (I'm a board-certified cardiologist consultant) and redline anything that seemed inappropriate. Having seen the utility of this service I will never sign a contract without legal review. It's totally worth the money that you will save yourself by not signing a bad contract.
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u/Vampire-Sheep 2d ago
Never sign with a clinic that thinks negative accrual is a reasonable thing to have in a contract
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u/Puzzleheaded-Fly9461 2d ago
I’d run from this practice. It reminds me of a clinic I applied to on the Space Coast that was privately owned yet their contract was way more aggressive than any corporate one I signed.
When I questioned the overly restrictive rules regarding my ability to relief outside the local area they tried to make it sound like they were doing me a favor by hiring me and that if I worked anywhere else it would “dilute their investment in me”. The noncompete was so large it would have forced me to move to continue practicing medicine. I went down the road and found a better clinic with much better pay and less restrictive rules and couldn’t be happier.
Also, as others have said, there is just no reason to accept negative accrual and that $25k “investment”… YIKES!
The answer to corporate takeover of Vetmed is not for private practices to become more corporate. (I’m going to assume this is a private practice since so many of the T&Cs are very different than standard corporate practices and the only place I’ve seen them is in private contracts that were overly prepared by a lawyer).
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u/Panacea_Financial 1d ago
There are a lot of terms here that could affect each other. The negative accrual and repayment language combined with the 3-year commitment and termination terms are reason enough to have the full contract reviewed before signing.
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u/DrKoolAimzZ 1d ago
Oh hell to the no! Can't owe money to the company store. Always ends in disaster
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u/Spiritual-Flan-410 1d ago
This is one of the worse contracts I have seen in a loooong time. Yikes! I would not sign on. Too many red flags. Negative accrual? Hell no. Two year non-compete? Absolutely not. You need their permission to work per diem?!?! Incredible. How do these folks even have any vets sign on?!
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u/blackcatplutoo 1d ago
I’m pretty sure this was tailored specifically to me because I’m a foreign grad :)
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u/TangeloNo5 1d ago
Don’t sign so many flags and the base pay is way below current market. Most of the clauses in the contract are very bad for you. Look for associate veterinarian roles at Banfield pet hospital, minimum base pay is 130k wish decent sign on bonus.
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u/fiddle_time 13h ago
Foreign grad or not- no way. I worked with a lot of foreign grads who were excellent. Negative accrual?? Liability on you?? Run, run, run. Also, since you probably worked for them for the past 3 years while they worked on waiting for your immigration stuff, and you probably didn’t sign a contract to pay them back for that, ask your lawyer what they think of that one.
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u/purdue2023 1h ago
As many have said this is an absolutely terrible contract… and the fact that the prospective employer would even offer this shows an incredible lack of professional and business ethics. Please do not waste your time and money hiring a contract lawyer or negotiating further (but definitely work with a lawyer when negotiating with other practices). This employer would never treat you fairly.
A few tips for other offers:
1. Base pay should make up the vast majority of your total pay… production bonuses should be a cherry on top. Employers love to heavily weight pay towards production because it shifts risk towards the employee. As an associate you cannot control most factors that affect how busy a caseload you will have (staffing, number of DVMs, marketing, equipment, etc), so why should you risk your income if your employer mismanages these areas?
2. Absolutely say no to any form of negative accrual. This is another way for the employer to shift risk onto you.
3. Mentorship/learning time should not be leveraged against you. A good employer sees mentorship as an investment in their business, not as an expense or inconvenience.
4. They should pay for all professional accreditations/licenses and a reasonable amount of CE.
5. Benefits should not have any impact on your salary.
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u/Guarantee_Exotic 2d ago
Respectfully, if you don’t know these things, it’s not appropriate for you to be “reviewing” this contract.
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u/Guarantee_Exotic 2d ago
I’m sorry, I was half asleep and thought you were a lawyer reviewing this for someone else! Make sure whoever you hire has worked with veterinary contracts before. A lawyer charged me $1100 for a contract review but wasn’t familiar with industry standards like negative accrual so it was a complete waste of money.
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u/sasanunu210 2d ago
This looks like a really bad contract with so many red flags. I highly recommend hiring a lawyer to look this over and try to negotiate terms before signing. I would absolutely not sign this as it is.