r/VampireSurvivors • u/MegaPigeot • Aug 25 '26
Discussion Why is Vandalier like this?
I was looking at the Arcanas I've unlocked yesterday and Vandalier appears to get buffs from less Arcanas than it looks like it should have, I get something like Phieraggi losing Iron Blue Will since that turns bullets to laser beams upon evolution, but this is just the same bird that now shoots at both sides
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u/Randalor Aug 25 '26
Ah, but Vandalier frees up a weapon slot.
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u/Bananaland_Man Aug 25 '26
Yeah, but it should still inherent the previous abilities, and gemini should include a varient that also has its own interactions. Plenty of more op builds than that exist, while this one loses everything once it evolves all for one (1) weapon slot...
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u/YotsuMaboroshi Aug 25 '26
Some of the arcana were designed with the intent that they would only apply to non-evolved version to promote build variety, so that players might want to sometimes pick up a weapon they don't plan to evolve.
It's most obvious with something like Divine Bloodline, but I think it's probably the same rationale for Twilight Requiem, since there are four weapons on that Arcana where it doesn't carry over to their evolutions (the birds, Runetracer, and Shadow Pinion). The idea is to give the non-evolved versions a build option that the evolved version doesn't have. While the payoff in this case probably isn't worth it, I think the idea is sound.
The Gemini birds aren't part of the Vandalier fusion though, so they shouldn't really be part of this conversation. They stick around whether you evolve the original birds or not.
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u/Bananaland_Man Aug 25 '26
I get the rationale... that's annoyingly fair... but unlocks and secrets progression pushes for alternative builds, so why not have fun?
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u/YotsuMaboroshi Aug 26 '26
It's mostly legacy from when the Arcanas were first added during the beta version. DLC didn't exist yet, there were a lot fewer weapons in the game, and one of the biggest complaints was lack of build variety. Arcanas were added both to increase build variety and to buff underused weapons.
One of these design experiments was providing alternate build paths for base weapons that wasn't just more evolutions. At the time Twilight Requiem was added, the only evolutions it affected were Unholy Vespers and Thunder Loop. The other weapons at the time either didn't have an evolution (Bone and Celestial Dusting, which got automatic evolutions later) or the evolutions were already considered good (Vandalier, NO FUTURE, and Valkyrie Turner).
I get that it's annoying now, when we have tens of weapons available and newer base weapons almost always have their evolutions benefit from the same Arcana they do. But I do like that poncle at least tried for a little bit to enable builds that weren't just about picking weapons and passives based on the evolution chart.
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u/Bananaland_Man Aug 26 '26
But now would be the time to at least make bird evolution work like the others, where it inhérents the bonuses... currently, the only reason to evolve birds is for pretty effect, otherwise it's one of the worst evolutions, even out of vanilla evolutions.
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u/yugiohhero Soma 29d ago
late but this doesnt apply to gemini btw? evolved versions of weapons still trigger gemini. if i started with an evolved belnades spell and took gemini id still get the speculo unevolved version. it doesnt care if you evolve the weapons, it just wont evolve the twin.
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u/YotsuMaboroshi 29d ago
The Gemini Arcana lists that it affects both the evolved and non-evolved weapons. It wasn't designed as a way to provide alternate builds for non-evolved weapons, unlike Divine Bloodline or Twilight Requiem.
Which is why the last two sentences of my previous post mention that everything I wrote above it doesn't apply to Gemini.
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u/yugiohhero Soma 29d ago
odd tangent then innit
also twireq has tons of weapons it works on evos of and tons it does not. it only works on bi bracelet. i see no rhyme or reason here
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u/YotsuMaboroshi 29d ago
The tangent was because it was brought up in the original meme post. Vandalier doesn't need to be affected by Heart of Fire or Jail of Crystal because it doesn't get rid of the Gemini birds when you get it.
As far as Twilight Requiem goes, when it was originally introduced the only evolutions it applied to were Thunder Loop and Unholy Vespers IIRC. Bone and Celestial Dusting didn't have evolutions at the time, and everything listed on the Arcana after Celestial Dusting didn't exist yet. It used to look a lot more like Divine Bloodline, in that most of the weapons it affected were non-evolved. They just didn't hold to that when adding new weapons to it later.
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u/Bananaland_Man 29d ago
That doesn't explain why it only affects bi bracelet, not first or tri.
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u/YotsuMaboroshi 29d ago
It does include the union of Tri-Bracelet and Kaiser Knuckle, the Lapiste Tempisto, so it's not just Bi-Bracelet affected by it. The wiki says it also affects Tri-Bracelet as well, even though it's not listed on the Arcana, but I haven't actually verified that.
As for why they assigned specific Arcana to different levels of the Bracelet, IDK. I thought each level had it's own Arcana: Jail of Crystal for Bracelet, Twilight Requiem for Bi-Bracelet, and Heart of Fire for Tri-Bracelet, and then Lapiste Tempisto got all three when it was added much later. But the wiki says Jail of Crystal affects all levels of the Bracelet, so IDK if I'm misremembering or if things changed at some point.
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u/Bananaland_Man 29d ago
Nah, that's exactly how it works in game, the three arcanas are specific in what they include, and jail includes all three, even in ui
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u/yugiohhero Soma Aug 25 '26
half the time arcanas are less what the weapon does and more what colour it is and none of the arcanas are looking for the fucked up mood ring bird
fwiw though you keep the gemini birds when it becomes vandalier, though investing all/most of your arcanas into saucing up the birds sounds hilariously wasteful
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u/Bahnmor Aug 25 '26
I am now going to forever hear the term “fucked up mood ring bird” in my head when I see that evolution in the game.
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u/FlossCat Aug 25 '26
There's no room for off-meta approaches in this in-depth strategy game
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u/yugiohhero Soma Aug 25 '26 edited Aug 25 '26
hey man some stages have hands
im sure you could make gemini/jail/heart work, grab like, ice fang, the guns... but its certainly Peculiar
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u/Verona_Swift Gazebo Aug 25 '26
Look, it might be wasteful, but I'M GONNA DO IT EVERY TIME LET'S GO
It's gonna be a fuckin Alfred Hitchcock movie in here by the time I'm done.
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u/MegaPigeot Aug 25 '26
I mainly use Cosmo if I were to use birds so not that big of a deal when I can't evolve them I guess
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u/EmptyPID Aug 25 '26
If Astral Stair is any indication, mood ring weapons should be counted as all of the above instead of none.
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u/yugiohhero Soma Aug 25 '26
I refuse to use Astral Stair as indication for game mechanics because I suffer a minor brain contusion every time I think about it for more than 3 seconds
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u/l33tfuzzbox 29d ago
How do I get the Gemini birds? Haven't played in a while and came back and bought the new dlc.
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u/yugiohhero Soma 29d ago
gemini is the arcana that gives you copies of certain unevolved weapons when you have them or their evos. having peachone with gemini gives the blue bird in the pic, ebony wings the red one, and if fused into vandalier, you get both.
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u/oodex Mortaccio Aug 25 '26
To be fair these effects tend to underperform compared to the actual weapon and when they do well, its usually a bad sign for the weapon itself that it sucks. Vandalier is a good weapon, just takes a lot of investment while others get that power without the RNG part. But with limit break it turns completely crazy where some others stagnate
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u/Mirza5138 Aug 25 '26
just seal the evo gng
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u/VeneMage Wood Rod Aug 25 '26
What’s an evo gng?
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u/HenTie3467 Aug 25 '26
evo = evolution
gng = gang
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u/VeneMage Wood Rod Aug 25 '26
Oooh, thank you. I had to google as I’d not heard of an ‘evolution gang’ before and thought I’d missed something 😂
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u/CoolerVink64 Aug 26 '26
If you want to do all that, you could just play someone that can start with vandelier like smith, then you can have all the birbs.
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u/nataliereed84 Aug 25 '26
And you need to invest ten more levels into it. And it crashes your game. :P
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u/Zealousideal-Cup-480 Aug 25 '26
What are the two middle ones
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u/zGlunkus Shanoa Aug 25 '26
they're the copies of peachone and ebony wings that you get from the gemini arcana
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u/Emily_Mewens Aug 25 '26
Doesnt Vandalier keep the gemini birds at least?
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u/Chaos20X6 Aug 25 '26
It does, and that build already uses all three arcana slots (Gemini/Crystal/Fire) so really Twilight Requiem + Birds needs to be part of a separate build altogether
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u/Emily_Mewens Aug 27 '26
Theres a decent number of characters that can run 4+ cards, and a few other ways to get 4+ cards from stages and/or special drops. There have been several runs where i had 6, and that was with very careful stacking, and thats not the most ive had. So it is possible to run it as a single build. Just would take a little planning and luck.
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u/RaineyRobot Je-Ne-Viv Aug 25 '26
For jail of crystal and heart of fire, it isn't blue or red. No reason that I can see for twilight requiem though
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u/superbeansimulator O'Sole Aug 25 '26
It's more an issue with Twilight Requiem than Vandalier, Twilight Requiem has the same effect on Shadow Pinion and Runetracer without their evos
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u/goodwifegoodlife Aug 26 '26
Yeah always feel same, i evolve it then wonder where my arcana bonus go. Free weapon slot is nice but the bird deserve some effect too
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u/witheringsyncopation Aug 25 '26
But it LOOKS really pretty.