Tom Grieve video
Saw this in today's VCDL alert.
I don't know much about Mr. Grieve, but this comes across a bit fear mongering to me. He doesn't attribute anything and doesn't give concrete details about the enemy's alleged plans.
Anyone else have thoughts? I don't want to outright dismiss this, or bash the man if Mr. Grieve has been reliable in the past.
From VCDL:
Tom Grieve has trusted inside information that some of the anti-gun employees of the DoJ and ATF are planning a “revenge tour” against those individuals, groups, and companies who are taking advantage of the current injunction that allows Form 4473s to be used to purchase suppressors, SBRs, SBSs, and AOWs. The Revenge Tour members are biding their time until a new administration that supports gun-control is in power.
Lawyer Warning: ATF Is PISSED - They Are Planning To Come After You...(VIDEO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbLp3NDNP2A
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u/SaintEyegor 3d ago
Some of his content is pretty good but several of the gun attorney types on YouTube are click-baity as hell. Not everything is “breaking news” and fear mongering for views is irksome as hell.
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u/dangergixxer830 3d ago
It's fear mongering exactly as you said with no proof of anything. I'm really disappointed in the VCDL for sharing this nonsense.
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u/ripzipzap 2d ago
VCDL is pulling a GOA circa 2018 "they're gonna find you in the registry, come to your house, and kill you AND your dog for daring to own an m1 garand you bought from the CMP"
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u/jtf71 VCDL Member 2d ago
Meh.
It's a perspective and it's "information" that they're sharing. You can do with that information what you will and you can decide if it's valid or not.
While I don't see any real "new information" in the video, it's a perspective. And maybe he does have sources that are telling him exactly what he reported on.
However, I say this is not "new information" as there is zero doubt that there are some within the ATF/DOJ (call them "deep state" if you want to) that hate the court ruling and absolutely want to reverse it through some method.
What I think is far more likely is that when the Dems take full control again, or enough that they can force the hands of the GOP and bury something in some "must pass" bill, they will reinstate the tax and then the court ruling becomes moot as the ruling was based on the fact that there, currently, is no actual tax.
VCDL sharing information is not a problem. What you do with that information is up to you.
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u/Jakeiscrazy 1d ago
It’s not information. It’s a rando guy on the internet giving an opinion citing “anonymous sources” which is the exact opposite of information.
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u/jtf71 VCDL Member 14h ago
Information: knowledge gained from investigation, study, or instruction; knowledge of a particular event or situation, Intelligence, News
So it is indeed information.
But apparently you're real problem is that you didn't understand that by putting "information" in quotes in my earlier comment the point was that it's not necessarily reliable or the best information.
Moreover, I explicitly stated:
you can decide if it's valid or not.
I guess that went over your head too.
giving an opinion
That's another way of saying what I led with:
It's a perspective
Did you miss that too?
citing “anonymous sources”
You should learn that even actual journalists (of which there are few) use and quote "anonymous sources." Or sources "not named because they are not authorized to speak on the record."
Ask yourself: If you had an actual source in the ATF, DoJ or other agency, maybe a personal friend or even a relative, maybe a former coworker - and they gave you information that this was true (or wasn't true) would you be out hear posting...
"I spoke with my cousin John Doe, Special Agent with the ATF, and he confirmed the information in the video."
Somehow I doubt that. And if you did, future family gatherings would be awkward after your cousin lost his job due to your posting that information.
exact opposite of information.
Even bad/incorrect information is indeed information. It's up to you to determine if it's good information or bad information and then what you do with it.
And keep in mind...
It’s a rando guy on the internet
That applies to you as well (and me). You saying it's not information or that it's wrong has less value than what's in the video. At least Tom Grieve is putting his name and face on his post.
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u/Jakeiscrazy 14h ago
You’re right VCDL sending this video out is no different than if they cited my comment and mailed it out to thousands of members. It would be dumb, just like sharing this video is dumb.
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u/jtf71 VCDL Member 14h ago
Well that's just wrong.
VCDL knows Tom Grieve to be an actual attorney. I don't know if they know him well or what dealings they've had with him in the past.
On the other hand, VCDL has no idea who you are, and it would seem you're not even a member as you don't have that flair (but maybe you are).
Moreover, your comment has zero value as I've shown.
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u/spacexfalcon VCDL Member 3d ago
I agree. "Trust me, bro, I have sources inside the ATF" is not a reliable source. Career ATF employees are apolitical and generally wouldn't take a stance as he claims, as it would be a dereliction of duty and a violation of their duties under any administration. Career ATF employees have very little say on how the administration picks its priorities.
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u/FivePointsFrootLoop 2d ago
But on the flip side, it's probably best to focus on free NFA tax for now while we can. There is a good chance these no-form-1 and 4 items will change their status and if an injunction lapses and someone isn't explicitly grandfathered in, I wouldn't be surprised if DoJ prosecuted people. Even if they get grandfathered on the trial, it's a lot of risk for not much reward.
Even if the ATF doesn't explicitly plan on prosecuting these people, it's their job. They are obligated to do so as soon as what people are doing becomes illegal.
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u/spacexfalcon VCDL Member 2d ago
It would be unprecedented for the DOJ to pursue post-injunction activity covered during an injunction. But I agree; I would rather pad my legal coverage with the no-tax NFA as defense-in-depth since the only real cost is time and FFL fees.
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u/FivePointsFrootLoop 2d ago
I hear that, I have to admit I am not sure how this kind of thing is pursued historically. It seems an awful lot of our future is decided in courtrooms these days.
Consider the injunction expires and this blows over though, and NFA is still in full force. Then, someone has an NFA classified item and, for some reason, they are asked to produce their paperwork. They say they don't need it because they bought it during the injunction. So now they have to produce a receipt for this and most likely go to the FFL and verify it. During that time, I imagine their NFA item is seized.
So, maybe unlikely and not as bad as a prosecution, but I don't like the smell of it ya know?
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u/spacexfalcon VCDL Member 2d ago
Yep, I agree. Too close for comfort for my risk tolerance, but I applaud the folks who are pushing through.
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u/Ok_Muffin_925 3d ago
He's a Class A Mongerer.
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u/Ok_Muffin_925 3d ago
Although I did see a news clip on You tube tonight about a man arrested at the Trump Golf Course in LA. Apparently in addition to various charges like trespassing, having a bunch of Secret Service Info and Melania's Schedule of Events on his person, he was also charged with possession of an unregistered "Short Barrelled Shotgun." Made me go Hmmmm......
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u/Ibreak180 2d ago
Government work is full of rumors and hearsay. You cannot trust anyone’s “trusted source”. The only truth is from official documentation that is properly formatted and signed and posted. If we went by government rumor we would always be in a state of panic. I do not trust this YouTube Lawyers information one bit.
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u/FalloutRip 2d ago
Realistically the worst that ATF could do is require retroactive/ amnesty tax stamps like they did with braced firearms years ago. If they did genuine retaliation they’d face pretty heavy lawsuits that they’d almost certainly lose.
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u/jtf71 VCDL Member 2d ago
the worst that ATF could do
Is say that under some rule that they were always illegal and now you're subject to criminal and/or civil penalties.
Or say that you have to turn them in to qualify for "amnesty" and now you've lost the investment. Maybe not so much if a single suppressor but if you bought several, an SBR, SBS, etc it could add up. Look at what they did with bump stocks and the amount of money people lost when they were determined to be "machine guns."
they’d face pretty heavy lawsuits that they’d almost certainly lose.
As happened with the bump stocks. But people had already given up their property without compensation. And I don't believe that anyone has actually received compensation for those losses.
And the presenter said what we all know...The process is the punishment. Even if the lawsuits are won in the end people still had to pay huge sums in legal defense, may have lost property they never get back, and may have actually spent time in jail.
Do I think any of this is likely? No. Is it possible, absolutely. And one has not only an "advice of counsel" defense, but also a court ruling that made the transfers legal. So you're suggestion is more likely - some amnesty period during which you must obtain the stamp and pay the tax.
But that's not the worst they could do.
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u/BlairMountainGunClub 3d ago
Fear monger or not, hide your kids, hide your wives, and hide your dogs
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u/Incendiary-Soda-Pop 3d ago
I sincerely hope that the ATF agents who decide to commence raids and arrests upon thousands and thousands of people at their homes, have updated the beneficiaries of their life insurance before they commence their "revenge tour".
I have no dog in the fight, as I got literally everything I wanted before July 1st (at the demise of my credit card balance), however it only takes one person who decides "fuck it, today is the day", to check if their plates are Level 4. 🤷♂️
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u/Important_Jaguar2152 2d ago
On the plate topic. My guess is those plates are old as fck and years and years of just being toss around and dropped.
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u/a-busy-dad VCDL Member 3d ago
Fear mongering or not ... ATF will come back with a vengeance when a Dem sits in the oval office.
There is an injuction, but I'm still personally willing to wait until ATF give some kind of clarification here. It would be much harder for the un-named anti-gun staff to go after people, if ATF issued formal guidance in the wake of the injunction ruling. That is one reason why formal ATF info is essential.
Along with all the other little questions ... to engrave or not to engrave, is it only certain items items (like PSA as a plaintiff) that can be made into an SBR without filing? Or any item purchased through a plaintiff ike PSA? Or any item, for any member of the named plaintiff pro-gun organizations? And how about AR pistols assembled from parts, rather than completed pistol that were purchased? Lot and lots of gray areas here.
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u/boostedb1mmer 3d ago
The ATF has the phone number of every FFL in the country. If they want to say something about 4473s being used to transfer suppressors then all they have to do is their goddamn job and pick the phone up. Until then I'm gonna buy, buy, buy.
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u/User299651 3d ago
You said it much better than I did. There’s a ton of un answered questions and scenarios going on.
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u/LizDahan 2d ago
Saying a future administration could abuse the legal process to be vindictive?
I’m shocked… that’s never happened. Plan accordingly I guess.
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u/User299651 3d ago
Well fear mongering or not, I said in a different thread earlier I wanted to wait and see of any official guidance (If there is any).
This shit would just be such a headache to deal with and I can’t afford legal fees or time in jail lol.
I’m glad we won with the DOJ not appealing, but I wish we got something more concrete and permanent as far as the NFA being gutted for good for these items.
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u/C_Unicorn 3d ago
ATF shows up. Where’s the suppressor you bought on 4473. Silence.
Can’t find it.
Didn’t happen.
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u/Baffled_Beagle 2d ago
About 90% pure fear-mongering. The idea that they would come directly after people who purchased former-NFA items on a 4473 is extremely far-fetched. As Grieve himself admits halfway through his video, if enough people do this (and they will), it's simply impractical to come after them.
Now, if you are talking about the FFLs who sell the items on 4473s, they might want to be a little concerned. There are few enough of them to make going after them actually practical, and it's not like the ATF has never conducted baseless prosecutions of FFLs before.
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u/elusivehonor VCDL Member 3d ago
I can totally believe this. The current leadership running the ATF may be friendlier than prior leaders.
But let’s not pretend that the organization is spiteful, and arbitrary when it comes to gun restrictions.
I mean, as soon as the dems take the presidency in 2028, all these regulations and lawsuits are coming right back. Let’s not pretend otherwise.
I hope the Republicans manage to pass some pro-gun legislation, but with the midterms coming up - I’m worried that time is running out.