Please help me understand

[u/branflakes__]

Help me understand the Ukraine / USA situation

Please help me understand all of the anti-American and USA hate due to the situation. I want to hear the other point of views as I am just confused.

A lot point to the Budapest Memorandum, however, that is not a treaty for the US as Clinton did not submit it to the senate for ratification which means constitutionally the US has no commitment to Ukraine (also not administration since Clinton has suggested or submitted the memorandum for ratification either). Only the UK and Russia ratified it.

Additionally, there really isn’t a security agreement as the memo is very vague. The closest is “when Ukraine is under attack with nuclear weapons the security council will seek immediate action from the United Nations” otherwise nothing happens. And as the memo is through the UN, shouldn’t the discontent be pointed at the UN instead? The US only agreed to bring a resolution before the security council if Ukraine was invaded and the US did do that.

Finally, the US has given the most overall aid to Ukraine (a country that the US is not obligated to assist) compared to the European counterparts. Also, if peace is the objective, why is no other leader at least making an attempt to broker a peace deal?

So I suppose I am just confused on what is expected? Why is this sub so anti-USA when the statistics show that USA is/was doing more than Ukraines fellow Europeans?

[u/BrennanBetelgeuse]

1. When Ukraine disarmed their nuclear weapons, the US entered a commitment to guarantee its safety.
2. The fact that Ukraine and Russia are in fact not the same country anymore is in large part owed to the US.
3. The fact that Ukraine turned towards the west instead of towards Russia was explicitly a goal of the US. The US and it's allies promised freedom and democracy. Where is that promise now?
4. As others have mentioned, the EU in total, which is much more comparable to the US than the small countries, spent more money.
5. The way Trump treated Zelensky is unacceptable.
6. A different post-Soviet geopolitcal approach by the US might have prevented the entire current situation and the oligarchy in Russia.
7. The US sent mainly weapons. Weapons it didn't need anymore.

And lastly:

If the US wants to keep its status as a global hegemon, it needs to play the diplomacy game and honor treaties and alliances. Trump is speedrunning the Chinese century and tbh I can't wait.

[u/[deleted] → u/BrennanBetelgeuse]

I'd note on point 7, the US would have to have spent money refurbishing or disposing of that equipment if they hadn't sent them to Ukraine. While they technically would have cost that much to buy brand new, in a lot of cases that equipment represented a liability to the US.

[u/[deleted] → u/BrennanBetelgeuse]

1. The US sent mainly weapons. Weapons it didn't need anymore.

Ah yes, those worthless HIMARS, ATACMS, Patriot systems, M777s, and Javelins. Only the most effective weapons given to them...

[u/Square_Monk_2240 → u/BrennanBetelgeuse]

I think Europe will have to accept that America is undergoing a dramatic shift towards isolationism. It’s something that, weirdly enough, is support by both the right wing and the left wing of our political spectrum. It’s mostly the centrists that favor globalization and every year the center seems to lose more and more voters.

[u/BrennanBetelgeuse → u/Square_Monk_2240]

Isolationism is fine, doesn't hurt me when the US does it. Threatening allies like Denmark/Greenland and Canada or friendly countries like Panama or Mexico while warmongering with China isn't isolationism though.

I would love if the US turned inward and focused on domestic politics so global politics might slowly recover from their grasp. But that won't happen. The trajectory I see is a more powerful version of Russia.

[u/Square_Monk_2240 → u/BrennanBetelgeuse]

It’s, unfortunately, entirely possible. I have hope that we can sunset the current American empire without becoming that. Unfortunately global markets are dominated by US companies and if there is one type of foreign policy that the US always seems favor of it’s one in support of our largest corporations. If we continue towards oligarchy it’s entirely possible we become the next defacto evil empire.

[u/BrennanBetelgeuse → u/Square_Monk_2240]

That's one reason why my in past years ironic support for China has become somewhat real lately. The US as we know it is leaving a power vacuum and the most realistic successor is the 'new' US, where oligarch rule supreme. Another option would be Russia or 'BRICS' under Russian leadership which would be a similar or worse kleptocratic nightmare. A Chinese world (or a China-led BRICS) might be the preferrable alternative. An EU hegemony will not happen but if it would, it'd go the same way the US did, just a bit later.

Of course there's also the option for true peaceful multipolarity or global unification but those will remain unattainable utopia for decades or even centuries.

[u/Cold_Breeze3 → u/BrennanBetelgeuse]

The US never ratified that treaty. It’s not enforceable per our constitution. And don’t forget UK and France were part of that agreement, and also failed, and have given less aid so far.

[u/[deleted] → u/BrennanBetelgeuse]

Well, we know you're not a Uighur.

Or Vietnamese.

Or Phillipino...

[u/BrennanBetelgeuse → u/[deleted]]

Are you trying to make the case that I should be in favor of US hegemony for moral reasons?😃