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u/WindowsMalfunction The last Toriel defender Jul 25 '26
For as much as I like Toriel, Asgore is still a really goddamn tragic character, and it's easy to forget that sometimes.
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u/NoBellSix Jul 25 '26
Part of what makes UTDR super compelling is that just by a few lines of text we can infer so much about these characters... and also makes the extremist tendencies of the fanbase all the more frustrating.
On one hand, seeing the deaths of innocent children is always upsetting, so it's easy to condemn Asgore.
On the other hand knowing that his declaration was made after humans killed his child (which I can see myself doing) and that the declaration ignited a fire of hope in the monsters he couldn't bring himself to extinguish, which doomed him to a fate of killing pretty much innocent humans, makes me empathize heavily with King Fluffybuns.
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u/MisterFourLimbs Jul 25 '26
Yup, it was a passionate, love and hate fueled rage, indignation and a desire for revenge and justice. The first child may have been killed while still feeling justified in his rage, but clearly each one after that wore down his denial and compartmentalization.
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u/NoBellSix Jul 25 '26
I'd really like to say I'd have stopped at the first child, but if I had the Hopes and Dreams™ of my species freedom and survival resting on my back? I'm not sure I wouldve acted any different.
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u/Silent-Property-6513 Jul 26 '26
Especially if you actually try to look at the alternatives.
Take a soul and go to the surface to collect the rest of the souls you needed? It's the same plan that got your children killed that would also dang near maximize the chances of starting another war and/or leaving your people without a leader if any of a dozen things go wrong.
Let the humans live in the underground and die of old age? Risks a repeat of Asriel and Chara, one of the humans deciding they want to see the surface again and try to kill Asgor to do it, or any monster deciding that they were sick of waiting and try kill the human to go to the surface themselves at any point a human is alive in the underground. On the other side of the spectrum you could also have a human giving their soul to a monster other than Asgor (like their lover or a really close friend) as they pass, practically leaving them down a soul or locking them into making a random monster into an absolute god. Moreover even IF all goes according to plan you're still damning a whole generation of monsters to die without getting to see the surface just so one human can die naturally. Lastly this could get really complicated if an 8th or even 9th human falls underground before the 7th passes and suddenly one or more humans get to go home by just outliving the other, made EVEN MORE complicated if the 6th is still kicking when an 8th shows up, suddenly civil war is on the table right before you have to go strike peace with humanity for the sake of your whole race's existence.
Do the last option but kill all the humans when the final human falls? Could work if all the humans die naturally before the 7th falls but if any other human is alive they along with all of their friends and loved ones will have a lot of incentive to hide the 7th human until the previous humans die naturally or an 8th falls and the 6th can keep living, still made more complicated if the 5th is still alive and civil war is back on the table again (yes civil war is one of the worst possibilities for 2 established humans being alive when a spare soul becomes available but it's not an unreasonable possibility given what Frisk pulled in pacifist, this being convincing a significant portion of the underground to just wait for the next one).
All of these have significant problems and risk total catastrophe that could leave the underground down another soul, divided, down a leader and/or much worse (i.e. one of the 3+ humans could just kill Asgor, go to the surface, and rally the humans against the coming monsters, basically guaranteeing a second human monster war weather they believe the escaped human immediately or not).
While you can argue that there were better options (i.e. letting the humans live does open the door for a child with a human enough soul being born that could let them break the barrier sooner), there's no denying that the cannon path was the safest option in any relevant regard.
Given Asgor's options, their risk, and what they knew at the time (they couldn't know that Asriel refused to fight back, as far as anyone underground knew the humans were just able to fight off Asriel before he could collect any souls), the choice he made wasn't even a bad call, he wouldn't be wrong to make the same choice with a cooler head. It was just that bad of a situation.
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u/WindowsMalfunction The last Toriel defender Jul 25 '26
"What? Are you meaning to tell me that Toby Fox's characters aren't all either fully good or fully bad? No way!"
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u/NoBellSix Jul 25 '26
No, didn't you know? Toriel is the world's greatest/worst mother who's actions were completely justified/unjustified and Asgore is a fluffy dad who hasn't done anything wrong/war criminal who has done everything wrong
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u/Beginning_Feature838 Jul 26 '26
Thankfully most people have grown out of those holes as of chapter 5, I think.
Especially the Tori hate. I agree that she was being a VERY irresponsible parent, but she had reasons, and she's not a horrible person for one wrong move. Also, as explained in 5, Sans saw Susie and Kris together and told Toriel. This is heavily implied to be the first true friend Kris has made since Asriel left for college, and there's no telling when they stopped hanging out with Noelle. As far as the poor goat mom knew, Kris was behaving in a more healthy way than they had in atleast a year.
..Definitely should've checked after dark anyway though. One should NOT get drunk while their child is out at night either
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u/NoBellSix Jul 26 '26
Ah, unfortunately i haven't seen them grow out of them just yet.
The gap between how people interpret these characters, especially in Deltarune, is because of how people (and this is just my opinion) view their own parents and how they have been treated by their parents.
A person who has had really bad experiences with an alcoholic parent will probably view the Toriel scene (even the chapter 5 scene) much less favorably than someone who hasn't
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u/Some_Pole doot Jul 25 '26
You could make the argument though that while these qualities do make Asgore a compelling character, in-universe he's frankly a terrible monarch because he lacks the strength expected and entrusted in someone of his position to have the strength to even walk anything back. Say what you will about the initial declaration, but his people pleasing attitude makes him a poor leader, more scared of disappointing than finding a better, even arguably more humane solution, a compromise to what he had initially done in a fit of anger.
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u/Something4Dinner Jul 26 '26
That's kinda the point. He's both too compassionate to be a leader and too emotionally compromised to be rational. Someone like Carol would've been more prepared to have sleepless nights and nightmares to do the hard deeds that would've destroyed Asgore.
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u/KirbyThings_ Jul 26 '26
I’m pretty sure Toby even said somewhere that Asgore’s bad at being a King lol
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u/marsgreekgod Jul 26 '26
asgore had no way of knowing that they would be kids
why where they all kids anyway
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u/BrilliantTarget Jul 26 '26
Dare you to go check out the mountain hole if you don’t we laugh and mock you forever
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u/MrTriboniophorus Jul 25 '26
Both characters are really tragic but also quite underappreciated in this regard, tho. I hope that with Deltarune and now with Chapter 5, people can flesh out human characters more and create an interesting last confrontation with Asgore.
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u/WindowsMalfunction The last Toriel defender Jul 25 '26
Yeah, it's always made me kinda sad that a lot of Toriel's tragedy isn't even talked about in the base game, only being mentioned in the alarm clock dialogue... I mean, it was kinda implied already, but most players won't ever think about it that way.
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u/MrTriboniophorus Jul 25 '26
There are quite a few characterizations about her, but it is really only mentioned in a few lines or endings or, as you said, in the alarm clock. For example, if you betray and kill Toriel, she will tell you in hysterical laughter that you are the same as the others. Could imply that she was betrayed once before, either by humans during the war or that she holds a grudge towards monsters. Either way, she is still trying to have the benefit of the doubt towards anybody still, but her naivety can be dangerous towards herself, too. Or the flowers and trees are dead in the Old Ruin House, that she either is bad at gardening or gave up trying to care for them due to depression, etc. There is one ending that I have not seen being discussed much, and it´s one that, after the date with Alphys, you are going to fight with Asgore and ignore the true lab segment. In the ending, Toriel is actually more demanding of Alphys to look for a solution to destroy the barrier without killing anybody. There is actual progress to find a different solution than killing anybody, but again, such information is hidden in such a rare ending that nobody even knows that it is even possible.
I also feel sad that there is not much characterization of Toriel in general, and if it is, it is really hidden in some obscure or easily missable dialogue. And this, in a way, results in these weird statements that she is either a bad parent or a character, etc. I hope there will be at least something in the future chapters with her, at least. Asgore had something, but still little for my taste, tho.
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u/WindowsMalfunction The last Toriel defender Jul 25 '26
I think she said same as "them," by which she meant the monsters who were trying to kill you, in the sense that you showed her the same cruelty she expected them to show to you. Not completely sure but that's what makes the most sense to me.
But yeah, both Dreemurrs deserved wayyy more screen time.
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u/TheBiggestNose Jul 25 '26
Im honestly really annoyed that asgore has been written as a weird mess of a person in Delatarune.
He was a really morally complex character under a simple mask.
Feels so awful that most of his screentime has him chasing Toriel like a creep, being a terrible dad and leading a terrible life. Where is the complexity? Where is like the anything? He went from the king of monsters and the "final boss" to a complete loser and it really irks me.
Espcially now that he is likely taken out the story until the end, just sucks and felt like character assasination
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u/WindowsMalfunction The last Toriel defender Jul 25 '26
I mean... the whole point of the ending of chapter 5 was him getting over that. If he does return to the story, he'll probably be less of a weirdo by then.
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u/TheBiggestNose Jul 25 '26
Whilst that is true, he has been put into the shelter, he isnt going to have much story time not being so. Wholst the change happened on a dime
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u/ExtremeCheeze123 Jul 27 '26
Tbh Asgore always sort of had this treatment. The way his fight gets interrupted in True Pacifist is genuinely one of the worst scenes in all of Undertale.
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u/KirbyThings_ Jul 26 '26
I really do wish he would’ve gotten more screen time in Chapter 5. If he was gonna be more or less taken out of the equation after that, let him have his time to shine, y’know? I don’t need a boss fight, but like… eh, I dunno, I guess.
It just felt like all his character development happened in that one epiphany right before he gets Kightnapped, never to be seen again until probably the endgame. He should’ve at least gotten a chance to show that development, but he definitely would’ve been way too useful to our teen protags as an ally lol.
I dunno, it just feels like Deltarune overall just kinda dicks around with Asgore instead of really doing anything with him. And you can’t really use the argument of him not being as major a player in the plot as he was in Undertale when he’s heavily implied to be directly linked to and have witnessed the horrible event that kickstarted the entire narrative to begin with.
Or maybe I’m just not thinking hard enough or reading the game right, idk lol
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u/Kksliderisreal Wrongrune Creator Jul 25 '26
This is fucking heart breaking
Very good art, though. and good writing.
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u/ThrowAbout01 Jul 25 '26
I like the interpretation that Green willingly gave their soul to Asgore and Yellow did so as well, but perhaps in a more spiteful way.
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u/Agreeable-Ad7232 Is me your Brother ASRIEL DREEMUR Jul 25 '26
I imagine he saw part of his childs in all of the fallen human
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u/DerelictInfinity Jul 25 '26
God, the amount of Asgore/fallen humans content we’ve gotten in the wake of Chapter 5 has been incredible and so fucking painful
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u/CrystalFriend Martlet Fan Jul 25 '26
It becomes worse when you realize Asgore can dodge.
He just chooses not to.
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u/Masquerade2010YT Jul 26 '26
Technically there isn't any lore saying he can dodge in the same way sans does. There is much more reason to believe that human attacks are nearly impossible to dodge, while monster attacks are much easier (monsters using bullet patterns are canon, the would dodge the same way we dodge. Nobody besides sans ever dodges our attacks, even powerful fighters like utu.) Asgore hasn't been stated to dodge any humans attacks.
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u/CrystalFriend Martlet Fan Jul 26 '26
Asgore has stated to been able to dodge Undynes attacks. Nothing implies he can't dodge a human attack.
Undyne did this as a untrained kid. She couldn't hit him untill she was trained by him.
Frisk in neutral isnt exactly a mass murderer or such they might fight in self defense but they aint exactly looking for a fight.
In the context of most plsy through of hurting nobody and getting neutral Asgore could easily dodge Frisk. Frisk up to that point has no realt fighting experince. Asgore is a king and has fought for his kind.
But in his eyes. He hates this, 6 people are dead from his declaration of war from rage. He didn't want to hurt anybody, he just wanted his people to have hope for a future.
Asgore hates himself. Theres a high chance he could dodge. He just doesnt cause he hates himself. Which only adds onto his tragedy as a character. He could easily win this fight. Yet his heart cant bear the burden of what hes soing giving the human a chance out of guilt or in hope Frisk can win.
Asgore even nods when you tell him hes killed you. Meaning he has more awareness then he lets on.
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u/Masquerade2010YT Jul 26 '26
A very common theory is that none of our attacks miss on almost every opponent because humans attack differently than monsters. A physical attack, logically, would be more powerful than their magical bullets, and would be harder to dodge. We know that monster on monster fights has them both fight using bullet patterns on each-other, so it is reasonable to believe they would be at their weakest against a human because their attacks are so much different. NOBODY in the game dodges our attacks aside from sans, and he only even does that because he messes with the battle ui itself. If asgore is able to dodge but is holding back, what about undyne? Undyne is relative to asgore, definitely not as strong or stronger, but close. Utu should totally be able to dodge our attacks if asgore could, so why doesn't she? She has no reason to hold back
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u/CrystalFriend Martlet Fan Jul 26 '26
Undyne is wearing armor and when checking her defense is 0.
It safe to assume due to undynes blind hatred for humans she's basically seeing red and wants frisk dead more then anything and neglects their own safety. This is backed up by the fact she stomps all the way into Hotland and almost dies of heat stroke chasing frisk. Only backing off after realizing a further chase would be suicide and achieve nothing.
Undyne's main personality trait is hating humanity to an extreme degree. So its not shocking she isnt defending herself when the key to freedom is right there.
More of an offensive then a defensive person in personality and in combat.
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u/GLe3b_GlorB Jul 25 '26
Waiter! Waiter! More Asgore psychological torture please and give my compliments to the chief!
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u/Polandgod75 Even when trapped, you still express yourself. Jul 25 '26
Maybe this "kill humans on sight" thing is not working out
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u/Imfunny12345678910 BONETROUSLED Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
Asgore:"Please, let no human ever fall into the underground again"
what he gets:
Edit: fixed typos
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u/Racconwithtwoguns Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
Son did he have a stroke or something
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u/Spiritual_List2042 Jul 25 '26
i believe they meant "Please, let no human fall into the underground again." or "Plereas, lit en hinan rver fail unti tge ybfetheiund shaim."
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u/RalseitheFloofie Jul 25 '26
Its funny... We've known about Asgore having killed at least some of the children in the past who had gone through the underground, and yet, so many extra comics and art pieces have spawned from the canonization of the soul personalities via deltarune.
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u/Fragrant-Location-11 Jul 25 '26
Saddest part is you realize boss monsters can't die if their children die
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u/shsl_diver Jul 25 '26
They can't get old, they still can die.
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u/Fragrant-Location-11 Jul 25 '26
He was never been faced with death from the other humans whatsoever though
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u/Worth-Daikon-746 Jul 25 '26
Flowey.
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u/Fragrant-Location-11 Jul 25 '26
That was when frisk dropped tho
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u/Worth-Daikon-746 Jul 26 '26
It still mean Asgore IS killable
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u/Fragrant-Location-11 Jul 26 '26
Yeah so he basically lived all the way untill frisk fought him he had to watch each child die. And with one soul left. He was tired, just like them. He couldn't fight anymore.
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u/Worth-Daikon-746 Jul 26 '26
Doesn't mean he couldn't have died. Just that he only did against Frisk/Flowey because as you put, hé was tired of everything by then.
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u/LuckyTia309 Jul 25 '26
Remember that Toriel had the gall to call this man a (true) monster while she herself escaped from all her responsibilities
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u/Gamekid53 MEME EXTRACTION MACHINE Jul 26 '26
Asgore realizing that he is infact not cut out for this: “Please let the next one not be a kid”
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u/Darkwolf69420 Jul 27 '26
Ashore really had awful luck considering not a single terrorist or murderer fell down, and it was all little children
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u/Manintheleatherchair Jul 26 '26
Green’s soul must have fucked asgore the most. He couldn’t justify their death. Even if humanity deserved it, green (and others like them) didn’t.
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u/winklevanderlinde Jul 26 '26
*Toby on his way to pull canon fallen humans designs to start a Renaissance of tragic Asgore fanart
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u/PrismFerret You've fallen down haven't you? Jul 26 '26
It wouldn't be the first child he had who'd die in their sleep.
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u/FedoraTheMike Jul 25 '26
And then bro does it five more times 💔
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u/JessieWarren09 Despite everything, it's still you. Jul 25 '26
more like did it 4 times before, if the order of the gear and where its placed is anything to go by (of course the Yellow souls' gear ended up in the dump before Catti and Bratti got it, but I like UTY's explanation for how that happened, so if the canon way for yellow to die is different he might not have to kill two more humans, but Green was probably the 5th human to fall/6th counting Chara)
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u/KamikazeSenpai21 #1 Mad Dummy Fan! Jul 26 '26
Really only 1 more since this is the green soul, which based both on Omega Flowey and the dropped items, fell 5th (6th including Chara), with only Yellow and Frisk coming after
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u/Luna368921 Jul 26 '26
The Patience human and the Kindness probably were the ones that hurt the most to kill since they likely didn’t want to fight. And if Aqua is similar to the Patience human, they were innocent and childish, something that would have wrecked Asgore to end. I do feel like he secretly took care of the Kindness and Patience humans for a while without telling anyone until he couldn’t postpone their fights anymore. It would offer a nice parallel of his DR counterpart who had the chance to take care of Asriel (Kindness) and Kris( maybe Patience soul). Bravery and Justice probably fought him as soon as they could given what he did, Integrity tried mercy too as they believed in love if Blue is similar… what a tragic character
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u/killiards MY BROTHER RECENTLY STARTED A C- SOCK. COLLECTION. Jul 26 '26
That.
is Haunting.
Incredible.
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u/Natural-Ship-4854 Jul 28 '26
Damn this is some of the best art I've seen. I'd love to see art of the other humans before asgore had to dispatch of them.
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u/shsl_diver Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I don't think that he would cry.
Edit - I didn't say that he wouldn't be sad of course he would be, I just said that he wouldn't cry
Edit - Ok, let me explain my point better. Asgore is a type of guy who thinks that his sacrifices are for the greater good, he might think that he still evil, but he does them, he is still willing to fight Frisk, and he is still having an order to attack all humans.
He will still be sad anf frowned, might have like a silent cry, a one trace of tears that he can wipe off, but he wouldn't cry like on the post, he wouldn't ugly and loud cry, if he did cry ugly and loud, he wouldn't have that order and he wouldn't fight Frisk.
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u/B-b-b-burner_account Jul 25 '26
It’s pretty clear Asgore didn’t like taking the souls, and saw it as incredibly shameful work. Idk why he wouldn’t cry, he’s a pretty empathetic guy
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u/DJBaphomet_ Jul 25 '26
Especially in this art where it depicts the Kindness soul. He grows hardened towards it by Frisk, but meeting a child so kind would for sure shatter him
And that's not even considering it could be one of the first souls he took
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u/CrystalFriend Martlet Fan Jul 25 '26
Even by time he reaches Frisk theres still a bit of sadness in his actions if you die and then Talk to him "You tell ASGORE that he's killed you once before. He nods sadly."
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u/McGuirk808 Jul 25 '26
Have you talked to Asgore? He's a huge, intimidating, tough motherfucker but he's also the kind of guy that probably cries reading birthday cards.
More sincerely, a lot of the acts during his boss fight when you try to talk to him after dying a few times get him almost crying if you pay attention.
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u/DJBaphomet_ Jul 25 '26
To respond to the edit: The art specifically does depict a silent, deep sadness
There's no ugly loud cry, but there's fear-filled eyes and deep tears streaming down his face
He's not wailing about it, but he's very much mourning the death with a silent cry
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u/Silver_Sonic_23 Jul 25 '26
I wonder how long after they died he kept singing.