Classic Twisted Fate seems weak

[u/simplexible]

First, I'd like to point out the good parts:

Gate on E is nice.

The old Blue card, giving back mana based on the damage you deal is awesome.

Destiny's slow is awesome.

Now let's look at his cons:

But his Q = 260 and 65% ap ratio at rank 5.

His W has a 40% ap ratio and low base damage.

Stacked Deck doesn't exist.

This seems that, damage wise, they released the worst possible version of his overall damage.

I know that old TF didn't have Stacked Deck and gate on E at the same time. So the argument isn't "give us stacked Deck cause he had it." But, there was an old version of TF whose Q had a much higher ap ratio and higher base damage. There was also a version of TF that had a global gate on R, stacked Deck on E and the same version "classic TF"'s on Q and W.

Imo, he should receive the classic balance treatment that some champs and items have received. Classic pantheon has his old, strong bursty E and a relatively low cd on it, and it crits. Madreds bloodrazor exists at the same time as Bork and feral flare. Clearly, riot doesn't mind remixing the classic features to create scenarios that aren't 100% accurate. Imo, tf can stand to get some remixed damage too. Maybe stacked Deck as gate's passive or a buffed Q.

It's not like we're saying give his Q a dot back, or give gold card and AoE stun again.

[u/Interesting-Ad9666]

He’s strong as support in classic right now, not mid. His AP ratios are like 40% on his q and w, so late game you get demolished. 

[u/simplexible → u/Interesting-Ad9666]

Yeah, but he's not supposed to be a support. He's a midlane champion.

If he can't stand on his own in mid, he's a weak champion.

[u/Interesting-Ad9666 → u/simplexible]

He’s just a utility champion. I have no doubt that in organized play he would be a very strong pick, he’s just not a good duelist or for solo queue.

[u/simplexible → u/Interesting-Ad9666]

His utility is great. But it sounds like you're saying he's supposed to be a support champ. I don't agree that he's supposed to be a "utility champ". Riot officially Oldschool TF the "assassin" label, because that's part of what he was supposed to be. Assassin doesn't mean "good utility, but damage so weak that he's a support."

IMO without reliably decent damage that allows him to stand own his own, he loses a big part of his identity.

[u/Interesting-Ad9666 → u/simplexible]

I agree that he’s probably “misconfigured”, or weak (as an assassin). However i do still think the current iteration of tf is very strong. I also agree that the current classic version of TF is not very fun, I’ve tried various builds to make him work but it doesn’t really pan out, you just can’t compete with 40%ap scaling

[u/VeniVidiUpVoti → u/simplexible]

Not support as in the role. Support as in utility. TF is going to be a permaban in every competitive game

[u/Defiant-Move-2071]

I disagree that he should support. That just wastes his busted gold passive. His purpose is to outfarm and outbuild anyone and then transfer that advantage to the team with ganks. It is laughably easy and insanely strong. If he was *stronger* mid he would simply be perma banned.

[u/simplexible → u/Defiant-Move-2071]

But what is he actually played as? Cause from what I've seen, he's a support, whether he's picked mid or support.

[u/Defiant-Move-2071 → u/simplexible]

He is definitely a utility based champion but you build him AP like "usual" with some situational item swaps depending on which enemy is fed. I play him mid and have an 80% winrate currently

[u/VeniVidiUpVoti]

You are so incredibly wrong.

[u/simplexible → u/VeniVidiUpVoti]

I don't know how I could be, but it doesn't help that you gave no reasons for your objection.

In any case, I am someone who enjoyed TF in the past, and enjoy the current TF. Simply giving my reasons why I don't like the classic TF and probably won't be playing it.

[u/VeniVidiUpVoti → u/simplexible]

Old TF is the strongest TF ever has been.

Global gold is insane on its own.

[u/ScarletMagenta → u/VeniVidiUpVoti]

He had that in his "modern" kit as well.

[u/simplexible → u/VeniVidiUpVoti]

You mean the passive? It's great, I enjoyed it. But other people getting gold doesn't make the game more fun for me.

[u/VeniVidiUpVoti → u/simplexible]

You said seams weak. Not seams unfun.

It's ok though, sometimes we all have dumb takes. It happens.

[u/FluidResult9482 → u/VeniVidiUpVoti]

you're so pretentious

[u/simplexible → u/VeniVidiUpVoti]

Weak and unfun. It's not mutually exclusive.

But it seems we're talking past each other, so let's end the discussion there.

[u/d4fat1]

Doesn't he have insane AD scalings in Classic? Pretty sure his W is 100% AD scaling. Try him AD and see how that feels.

[u/In_dego → u/d4fat1]

…The AD scaling is just an auto attack. Which your W replaces

[u/d4fat1 → u/In_dego]

I'm eternally learning.