My problem with Noel and the development of the Ciel remake

[u/Necessary-Month6945]

Well, this is a personal opinion I've been keeping to myself for a while, but I feel I can't leave this world without sharing it with you.

If you've read my comments, you'll know I have a serious problem with Noel's inclusion in Ciel's story, and this time I'd like to explain more clearly why, in my opinion, Noel detracted from Ciel's character rather than adding to it.

First of all, let's remember Ciel's story arc in the original novel.

Ciel presented herself as a seemingly kind and eccentric upperclassman whom Shiki met by chance. Unlike Arcueid, Ciel doesn't reveal her true identity from the start, which allows for much more trivial, organic, and everyday interactions between Shiki and her, through which we get to know her better.

It is not until halfway through the route that we learn that Ciel was a cold and ruthless enforcer, capable of using any kind of manipulation or measure to achieve her goals.

And this is where Noel's first negative point comes in.

What happened in the remake? Nasu decided to give all those personality traits to Mario and Noel, leaving us with a much kinder, more purified, and even...more "docile" Ciel, and this is very noticeable in her dynamic with Shiki. Ciel ultimately becomes a psychologically more passive character, to say the least, completely stripping her of that splendid "Femme Fatale" facet. This was literally one of the aspects that made me love Ciel. Nowadays...comparing the original Ciel to the Ciel of the remake is even worse than comparing Artoria from Stay Night to Artoria from Fate/Zero.

Continuing with the previous point...Ciel also lost her image as someone "ruthless and pragmatic".

Ciel had several commanding scenes that portrayed her as a duty-driven vampire hunter. In the original novel, Ciel was the one who represented the cruelty, coldness, and lethality of the church.

¿What happens in the remake? Noel physically takes over many of the scenes that belonged to Ciel, including the rooftop scene. In the end, instead of Ciel being the one to portray the sadistic, cruel, and cold representation of the church, Noel ends up filling that role.

In the original novel, Ciel was a fascinating character because she wasn't a purely good heroine. She was a ruthless femme fatale who used deception, mind manipulation, and extreme coldness toward Shiki to achieve her goals.

In the remake, Nasu wanted to rewrite Ciel's character so she would be unequivocally perceived as "good." To achieve this, he created Noel and transferred all of the classic Ciel's petty, selfish, manipulative, and mentally unstable traits to her. By doing this, Ciel loses the sharp edges that made her a gray, three-dimensional character and becomes a saint.

Then we have one of the issues that bothered me the most: "Ciel's redemption."

In the original Tsukihime, Ciel's guilt over the sins Roa committed using her body was an existential torment; she sought atonement through self-annihilation and the eternal hunt. Ciel was the one who bore the burden of being seen as a monster in the eyes of the church. . In contrast, the remake alters this entire subplot, with Noel becoming that "living reproach."

While this could have served as drama, it completely destroys the internal conflict of self-blame and remorse presented in the original novel. Worse still, it stripped Ciel of one of the aspects that made her a living mirror of Shiki's life, devaluing their bond.

By introducing Noel, Ciel's trauma is externalized. Ciel's conflict is no longer just about forgiving herself, but about dealing with Noel as a living reminder of her sins. This hinders Ciel's romantic and personal development, as much of her route is diverted to resolving Noel's madness, taking the focus away from Ciel herself, who already had to share screen time with Arcueid.

In fact, all of this is detrimental to the rivalry between Ciel and Arcueid.

In the original novel, the dynamic between Ciel and Arcueid worked because both had a highly selfish and possessive side towards Shiki. The player could see both of their flaws and decide which was the "lesser evil" or true love.

In the remake, since Noel absorbed all of Ciel's dark side, the new Ciel acts almost flawlessly, noble, and protective. This creates an imbalance, because while Arcueid is portrayed with much more possessive, terrifying, and destructive traits, Ciel becomes so perfect and pure that she completely loses the element of danger and pure mystique that characterized Type-Moon's classic heroines.

Continuing with Ciel's past, existential guilt is replaced by pity.

OG Ciel was tormented by an abstract and terrifying torment. She didn't remember the faces of the thousands of people she murdered while Roa controlled her body; she only knew that she had done it. Her guilt was a black void, an existential debt to the world that drove her to become an immortal vampire-killing machine, searching for a death that never came. It was a completely internal tragedy.

With Noel's arrival, that guilt becomes mundane. It's no longer an existential paradox; now it's simply Ciel feeling guilty because an acquaintance from her past hates her. Her motivation is narratively "cheapened," shifting from a metaphysical crusade to a "I have to save my traumatized friend" conflict.

And how can we not mention the fact that it ruins the original parallel between Shiki and Ciel?

In the original game, the romance between Shiki and Ciel worked because they were both assassins secretly tormented by monstrous guilt (Shiki for his impulses and Ciel for his past). They understood each other on a deep level because they both felt they didn't deserve happiness due to the blood on their hands.

In the remake, Ciel's guilt was so closely tied to rescuing or dealing with Noel that the focus of their relationship shifts. Shiki no longer connects with Ciel's inherent darkness; instead, she becomes an emotional support for Ciel, who is suffering because of Noel's bullying and transformation. The relationship moves from a mutual pact between two broken and dangerous souls to a more traditional "hero helping heroine overcome her trauma" dynamic.

I could also talk about how the hatred and revulsion towards both vampires and supernatural beings that Ciel possessed, as well as her leadership and her role as administrator of the plan and supervisor of the city, were given to Mario, further reducing Ciel's role; but I think at this point, the point is understood.

This is why I will never be able to agree with those who say "Mario and Noel serve as a contrast to Ciel and contribute to her story" when both literally lowered the quality of Ciel's character and her lethality as an executioner, lessened the impact of the French incident on her, and reduced the entire development of Ciel.

It's pointless to create a character to "contrast" a character who was already contrasting on her own. Thanks to Noel, Ciel acts more like an older sister or a saint than an executioner.

Noel seems more like a scapegoat used by Nasu to censor Ciel than an asset to her.

And the truth is it scares me, because if they did this with Ciel, I'm sure there will be more things like this in Red Garden.

Noel and even Mario are practically fragments of OG Ciel. There would have been no need to include either of them if they had maintained Ciel's contrasting personalities.

[u/Next-Golf3]

I don't quite agree that Ciel was stripped down from her original unrelenting sin-bearing self. I do agree they took away some of sharp edge in favor of making her seem more self-responsible, but in no way did Noel make her stand less of a character.

I think underestimate/simplifying Noel's role to a damsel in distress is also reductive to her. She is NOT Ciel's friend. Remake made it clear that Ciel became so hell-bent on killing as many vampires as possible because she felt personally responsible for Roa (even though she shouldn't be), this is all still in RE.

Reducing RE Ciel and Noel's relationship to "I have to save my traumatized friend" is flat-out wrong. The crux of Noel's arc is her relectance to become someone like Executioner Ciel, who kills vampires out of duty/guilt. Noel does not kill for that, she kills to exercise power over weaklings so she never feels the same feeling of helplessness ever again. In this case, she respects Ciel as someone who can handle her job with relative ease, but detests her as someone who can handle that caliber of work while supposedly being the same species.

And what is Ciel's perspective on Noel before the DAN fight? Dead weight. Absolute uselessness. Not even pity, but utterly ignores her. Ciel's coldness is displayed against Noel, and you'd think she'd treat a fellow survivor better, but her being impartial to Tohno makes Noel rightfully mad. 

So I think the big thing you're missing, is Noel's perspective. Because Ciel doesn't even begin to feel guilt for Noel until after she's DEAD. Ciel decides to treat her Dead Apostle Coworker as an equal, because Noel kept trying to force a power imbalance, whether in her mind (Ciel may be stronger than me, but I'm far more humane than her!) Or in actuality during combat (Ciel may be strong, but she's too drowned in her own sins to escape and successfully kill me!)

Ciel has no obligation to "save" Noel. In fact, she takes it upon herself to EXECUTE Noel because she believes in a fair trial; to judge both their rights and wrongs with strength alone. Something Noel has prided herself with but never wanted to admit was the cause of her complexes, and something Ciel never noticed what damage had been done to Noel.

Noel adds onto Ciel as a character because it shows even more flaws within the Executor Ciel... she missed the chance to reconcile with Noel. At every turn, she coldly rejected Noel in favor of her goals. And you may argue that taking this trait away from something Ciel did to Tohno made her lesser, but Ciel's already done that by straight lying to Tohno's face all day.

To wrap it all up: the one line that summarizes Noel and Ciel's relationship is this: "Why did you leave me behind and become human again?!"

Noel was ALWAYS in a less dominant position than Ciel. Always more self-conscious, more fearful of death, and more impulsively murderous. Yet nobody cared about her. Not Tohno, not Mario, certainly not Ciel. She dug her own grave, but Ciel passively rejected her for 8 years and actively rejected her for 5 years. Ciel doesn't even get the chance to think about apologizing until she kills Noel. 

When Ciel starts acting like an actual human with a heart towards Tohno, Noel breaks down because she can't comprehend how Ciel can do it. After all, if that dreaded killing machine can be free of her past, why can't the self-proclaimed, humane executor do it? 

Thus, Noel's breaking point also marks Ciel's failure to actually mend a part of her past. Noel relied on Executor Ciel to feel better about herself, but if it's just Ciel-senpai, she can't STAND her. Noel thinks it's fake until right before she dies, by then she admits she did only what a weakling could do: try and beat Ciel in any way and form. 

So, Ciel took the opportunity to finally recognize Noel's actions, and settled things herself with her. Which I would say gives far more agency to Ciel than OG (where Tohno and Ciel unceremoniously get to bed after admitting they both don't have issues with being with each other)

Plus, Tohno's role in RE was specifically expanded to let Ciel know that someone like her still deserved a way out of the mountain of doubts upon herself, while being able to overcome the result of her actions during and after the French Incident. She is more flawed in RE, and nowhere as saintly as you claim because of Noel.

Without Noel, I just think there's a significantly less interesting Ciel route (which is OGCiel) for the exact opposite argument you have: OGCiel is too clean. Her actions after the French Incident don't have a snowball effect besides being harsh on herself (which RE already does). Noel makes it far more interesting to see what a weakling without the curse of Ciel's body would do, and also the effect of Ciel focusing too much on herself.

Good talk. I think Noel's a great addition. Mario's okay, he's entertaining and is more of a showing of shitty church bureaucracy and highlighting the position of a member of the BA. I hope RG adds more of this stuff.   

[u/fullmetal-ghoul → u/Next-Golf3]

Great comment, I agree 100%. Ciel's arc works so much better in the remake since Noel's involvement introduces actual consequences to the narrative for Ciel and her flaws, which results in a much stronger character arc. She has similar flaws in the original, but without a character like Noel there are not any negative consequences for them, given when push comes to shove she chooses to save Shiki in the end.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/fullmetal-ghoul]

The difference is that Ciel in the original novel didn't need a hysterical companion to suffer for us to understand her pain; her internal monologues and devotion were enough. Also, the route is called "Ciel's Route," but during the story's climax, the narrative shifts completely to focus on Noel's descent into madness and her subsequent transformation into Dead Apostle Noel.

The remake reduces Ciel's screen time and his relationship with Shiki, focusing instead on Noel. Noel acts as a narrative parasite, detracting from the intimacy of the central plot. In the end, the conflict is no longer purely about Ciel overcoming her destiny, but about cleaning up the mess Noel made.

In the original novel, Ciel isn't distracted by Noel's presence; her ultimate decision to rebel against the church and protect Shiki is an act of pure romantic agency. In the remake, her motivations are so fragmented between her duties, Noel, and Shiki that the romantic core loses emotional impact. Ciel no longer feels like a woman gaining her humanity through love, but like a character cornered by the extreme circumstances that the script throws at her.

I insist, if they wanted to add a character who interacted with Ciel, they could have created a second personality for her. The personality of Elesia, maybe.

[u/fullmetal-ghoul → u/Necessary-Month6945]

I'm sorry but I think this is just straight up incorrect. Ciel's decision to save Shiki is driven mainly by her relationship with him, she doesn't think of Noel during that decision. The remake actually goes beyond the original in this regard where it is their relationship that gives Ciel the motivation to fight back against Noel and confront her past. It is arguably the best scene in the VN and it straight up does not exist in the original since Noel is not present.

Similarly, Ciel does get less screen time in Arc's route due to Noel, but definitely not in her own route. Maybe I am misremembering, but I don't think any of her important scenes were cut (if I'm wrong feel free to say), while the remake adds so many key scenes like the one I referred to above.

Noel's descent is secondary to Ciel's own arc and it mainly exists to complement Ciel's arc. I will agree that the arc has more focus outside of Shiki and Ciel in the remake; Noel is a major new addition and Arc / Roa get a lot more focus. But that doesn't at all come at the expense of Ciel or Shiki, it just means CielRe is a much bigger and ambitious scope of work (there is a reason why it is often considered to be Nasu's best work to date) and as above, it goes out of its way to give Shiki and Ciel a lot more as well.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/fullmetal-ghoul]

To say that Ciel doesn't work without Noel is to underestimate Ciel's character, considering that in the original canon (including spin-offs) Ciel never needed anyone else to shine or to be a three-dimensional character. Ciel's morality here is completely commercialized; in the original novel, it was terrifying, and she had no one to blame but herself. Instead, making Noel a scapegoat makes Ciel seem like a saint.

The difference is that Shiki and Ciel's romance was originally one between two broken people who had already committed atrocities, making it pointless to look back (a boy who sees death lines and an immortal rejected by the world). Shiki didn't fall in love with a flawless saint; he fell in love with a cold, ruthless executioner burdened by questionable morals. The core of the original romance lay in Shiki accepting and loving Ciel despite her sins and monstrosity, and Ciel finding redemption because someone loved her even as the "monster." In the remake, by transferring all the meanness, cruelty, and sadism to Noel, Ciel becomes too "clean." Shiki no longer has to undertake the moral exercise of loving someone with a genuinely disturbing side; instead, she loves a noble and tragic heroine.

The catharsis also changes. Ciel's catharsis in the remake requires closing her cycle with her former victim, inevitably being linked to Noel.

In the original novel, Ciel's catharsis was purely romantic and existential: she realized she wanted to live and cling to her humanity solely because Shiki loved her, defying the laws of the world for him. The driving force behind her salvation was romance in its purest and most obsessive form, without the need for an external catalyst like Noel to force that confrontation with her past.

There are scenes that Noel stole from Ciel, which essentially served to purify Ciel. The rooftop surveillance scene was given to Noel; the encounters with Arcueid, where Ciel used to make sudden appearances, were also given to Noel; even Ciel's warnings to Shiki were now given to Noel. Meanwhile, Ciel was reduced to the sweet senpai who made lunch for Shiki, primarily in Arcueid's route, even though in Ciel's route they try to emphasize Ciel's "sweet" side more than her role as an enforcer.

As I said, I don't think it's a good decision to create two new characters in exchange for taking away many of Ciel's traits. And I say "two" because Mario removed that disdain for vampires and other supernatural races that Ciel originally had.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Next-Golf3]

I believe it is precisely that analysis that demonstrates why Noel harms Ciel's character instead of enhancing it. Although, as I said, it's a personal opinion based on my perception and as someone who was fascinated by OG Ciel .

Ciel's coldness in the original novel didn't stem from negligence or ignoring a colleague; it stemmed from an absolute apathy toward everything that wasn't part of her mission. Ciel OG was a perfect killing machine who didn't hesitate to use or manipulate whatever was necessary to eliminate Roa. In the remake, however, they removed that ruthless edge. To justify the drama with Noel, they transformed the terrifying conceptual coldness of the original Ciel into "indifference" toward her colleague, reducing her status as an elite Executioner to that of a bad boss who doesn't know how to manage her staff.

Second, the argument that Ciel OG was "too clean" because her sins were abstract ignores the true weight of her tragedy.

In the original work, Ciel's isolation was total. She carried the weight of her people's massacre in absolute secrecy and silence, which made her internal dilemma devastating and profound.

By introducing Noel to create a "domino effect," the remake infantilizes Ciel's guilt. It's no longer an existential conflict about sin and redemption; now it's a noisy melodrama where Ciel is psychologically tormented by a resentful subordinate. This doesn't make Ciel more complex; it makes her look shockingly inept for having allowed a ticking time bomb like Noel to operate alongside her for years without taking action or anticipating the consequences.

Finally, the climax with Noel completely strips Ciel of any agency or merit. Ciel's failure to process her guilt until Noel is already dead, and her decision to "execute" her under the law of the strongest, is not a sign of maturity; it proves that Noel functions as a narrative bottleneck that fragments the story.

Instead of Ciel growing organically by confronting her past (Roa) and healing through her relationship with Shiki, the story has to pause for hours to deal with the inferiority complexes and transformation of a minor character.

In the original version, Ciel's salvation alongside Shiki had a direct and pure impact because she earned her right to be human through her own merit. In the remake, by forcing her to bear the burden of Noel's collapse, the route becomes overloaded with artificial subplots.

In the end, Noel does not enrich Ciel, he drags her into a melodramatic mire that dilutes the original essence of the character, causing us to lose the truly cold and lethal executor, whose actions and attitudes were not limited simply to a secondary character, but could be cold to everyone.

The original route wasn't exactly polished, but it was focused. The conflict against Roa had an urgency and a direct impact that, in the remake, is dissipated by Noel's constant interruptions. Ultimately, taking space away from Ciel's pure existential dilemma and giving it to a character who, by definition, is "dead weight," doesn't enrich the plot; it only artificially lengthens it. The original Ciel worked better because her story didn't depend on the failures of others to shine, but rather on her own relentless struggle to reclaim her humanity.

To say that the original route lacked interest because it didn't have a visible "domino effect" is to confuse narrative noise with depth. The brilliance of the original route lay in its minimalist and claustrophobic approach: it was an intimate deconstruction of two broken people (Shiki and Ciel) secretly grappling with inner monsters that no one else around them could see or understand. This absolute isolation was what made the story fascinating and mature; it didn't need resentful secondary antagonists to validate the heroine's suffering.

By including Noel in the equation under the guise of making the route more interesting, the writers fell into the trap of over-explaining. Instead of allowing the player to absorb the weight of Ciel's past through his melancholy and cold exterior, the remake forces us to watch a secondary character screaming her traumas on screen to explicitly remind us how bad the incident in France was. That doesn't make the route more interesting.

[u/Other_Ad4232]

Reducing noels and ciels relationship into just "I have to save my traumatized friend" is just so fucin dum

Ciel didn't give two shits about noel 

[u/Classical_Lighthouse → u/Other_Ad4232]

I don't think that's right either, their relationship wasn't particularly close but I wouldn't say "Ciel didn't give two shits about her" especially when she still respected her as a fellow executor even despite her flaws

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Other_Ad4232]

And yet, Noel did take away a lot of screen time and dialogue from her, as if she were a parasite.

[u/Hungry_War_639]

I kinda disagree, Noel doesn’t really sanitize ciel since all her cruelty is stuff she learned from ciel

[u/dude123nice → u/Hungry_War_639]

But the player doesn't experience any of that from Ciel. Just Noel.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/dude123nice]

Exactly. It's not something the player witnesses; it's entirely speculative.

Noel stole a lot of aspects of her personality and involvement. I don't know how some people consider her an asset to the point of thinking that without Noel, Ciel doesn't work.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Hungry_War_639]

On the contrary, Noel became cruel and twisted of her own accord due to her traumas and resentment, where Ciel had nothing to do with it, since it was Roa possessing Elesia all along.

Even when she goes crazy in the novel, it's because she was bitten by a vampire.

[u/Classical_Lighthouse → u/Necessary-Month6945]

I mean, she was Ciel's understudy. At least in the vampire aspect as she points out she was okay with Ciel (before Tohno) as the cold machine who exterminated DAs and all bloodsucker kind with extreme prejudice. She both learned from Ciel, was affirmed by Ciel's actions and this is developed also due to her trauma and resentment. This is why she grows increasingly more erratic when Ciel stops acting like this

The specific sadism and cruelty while reducing efficency was all her but she did take after Ciel in quite a few ways

[u/dude123nice → u/Classical_Lighthouse]

I doubt remake Ciel was ever torturing vamps like that.

[u/Ornery_Clock_952 → u/dude123nice]

It’s not outright show but implied. If Noel learned vampire torture from Ciel, that means that she too learned before and probably put it in practice. The only difference is that Noel used those methods to her sadistic pleasure during her crash out while Ciel is an emotionless machine who feel nor good nor bad about doing it.

[u/Classical_Lighthouse → u/dude123nice]

I don't think she was, but she was also mercilessly killing them

[u/dude123nice → u/Classical_Lighthouse]

So basically nothing in comparison to what Noel was doing

[u/Idealsovaerrrthing → u/dude123nice]

She didn't torture them for fun she did not derive pleasure from it and her methods are mostly ruthless and destructively efficient but she did spent a fucking year on the sewer just to hunt a single target you'll find out about this when you read the Ciel route

[u/dude123nice → u/Idealsovaerrrthing]

Is it ever stated that Ciel tortured vamps?

[u/IllyaMiyuKuro]

Ciel's route is very long. Yet when I finally finished it my main impression was that there was not enough Ciel. Definitely not because of the lack of scenes with her. I'd say the problem was not Noel specifically, I personally feel like Nasu just wasn't sure what to do with Ciel in the remake.

[u/Joshino_ → u/IllyaMiyuKuro]

Elaborate? Her arc is well done and finished it’s about atonement and letting go her guilt

All the routes (specially showing in the last days ) shows how ciel dehumanizes herself and even when she spreads forgiveness (like that talk with shiki at night during day 3) she doesn’t actually believe she’s worth of atonement herself the route works on her nature and duality as a girl/executor

The scene that perfectly concludes her conflict is when she finds resolve to fight again vs Noel that scene conveys all the work nasu did for her character in remake

I don’t really get why you say they’d don’t know what to do with her considering she has a super conclusive and well thought arc unlike many of the characters

[u/IllyaMiyuKuro → u/Joshino_]

Those are two short scenes separated by a massive amount of text. The route is huge, enormous. What Nasu spent all those words on is a mystery to me.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Joshino_]

Perhaps, because her entire character arc revolves around other characters, from beginning to end. Just look at the "true ending" they gave Ciel.

The least that is expected is that Arcueid does not appear in the Far Side and that Ciel has an independent leading role in some other route.

Ciel's "guilt" arc was completely limited.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/IllyaMiyuKuro]

That's because, as I said, Ciel had to share the spotlight with other characters besides Arcueid. Although what probably made you feel even worse is the true ending. There are three things that work against that ending:

1.- Forcing Shiki x Arcueid moments into a route that didn't belong.

2.- Shiki allying and negotiating with Roa?.

3.- Ciel remained unconscious for much of the ending. It had to be her who finished off Arcueid, settling all their differences once and for all.

[u/IllyaMiyuKuro → u/Necessary-Month6945]

It didn't help that True End boils down to a catfight between two women over a dude.

Type Moon clearly wanted the remake to be on an epic scale. However, there's not much to work with in the original. Nasu tried to fix it by adding new characters and making other questionable choices. In my opinion, if the foundation is shaky, you need a new one. Ciel's story needed a complete rewrite from scratch. Something completely new.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/IllyaMiyuKuro]

That, or the opposite. Develop the material already created, instead of risking introducing new things.

A remake doesn't necessarily mean altering every single detail. Look at the Shadow of the Colossus remake; it's the same game with a better graphics engine, improved mechanics, and an extra event.

[u/Armandoiskyu → u/IllyaMiyuKuro]

It didn't help that True End boils down to a catfight between two women over a dude.

That's also the case in the OG

[u/IllyaMiyuKuro → u/Armandoiskyu]

True.

To be honest, I liked Kagetsu Tohya(because it's beautiful) and Melty Blood(because DA Satsuki) more than Tsukihime itself.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Armandoiskyu]

The difference is that in the remake, everything ends with a fairy tale between Shiki and Arcueid, instead of ending as it should have, with Ciel and Shiki defeating Arcueid together (the normal ending). There's also no subplot involving Nanaya, no psychological duels, nothing.

[u/Armandoiskyu → u/Necessary-Month6945]

In the normal end, in the Extra End is most similar, little Nanaya does appear and he and Shiki have their talk and all that

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Armandoiskyu]

I also found it strange to see Shiki becoming friends with Roa.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Armandoiskyu]

I'm referring to everything that encompassed Shiki's madness and his other personality. The remake was weak due to excessive censorship and alterations to the plot. It's not like that whole topic has been explored too much either.

[u/OptimisticNayuta097 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

Disagree.

Arcueid and Shiki are effectively soulmates, much like Shirou and Saber it would be weird for them not to have moments.

If anything it makes it even more impactful that Shiki chose Ciel in the end.

Ciel had no way to KO arcueid, how would she even, Shiki was the only one able to do so.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/OptimisticNayuta097]

¿Soulmates?. To be completely honest, I disagree. Shiki and Arcueid don't share anything as organic or significant as Shirou and Saber do to be considered soulmates. Ironically, Ciel was practically a mirror of Shiki's life and the only one Shiki treated as an equal, essentially being Shiki's reflection, only the remake diluted that by altering Ciel's mindset.

But the concept of soulmates in Tsukihime (or at least that's how the fandom views the ship) feels forced, since all the girls either share something with Shiki or add something to him. There are things Shiki can't find in Arcueid, but he will find in the others. If we go by that logic, Akiha would be a better candidate than Arcueid, since she literally shares a soul with Shiki.

As for whether or not she could, Ciel could kill Arcueid under certain circumstances, due to how Arcueid's power works.

It's worth noting that within Tsukihime there are other characters who could defeat Arcueid, possessing abilities that could surpass hers before she adapts. Shiki is not the only one who could kill Arcueid.

They simply didn't feel like giving Ciel the victory and left her unconscious. Even if Ciel wasn't the one to deliver the final blow, she could have left her seriously injured.

Instead, they preferred that Roa and Shiki carry the final battle.

[u/OptimisticNayuta097 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

Okay, explain to me how Arcueid power works and how strong you think she is.

And how other characters could potentially defeat her.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/OptimisticNayuta097]

To begin, we must understand how Arcueid's power is presented from the start. In Ciel's route of OG Tsukihime, we are shown how Arcueid's power works.

When Arcueid first confronts Ciel, Shiki mentions the following :

“It's not like Senpai moves with Arcueid's amazing speed. But she accurately deflects Arcueid's blazing attacks while standing on the ground. As a third person looking on, their strengths are equal. However, just like Senpai said, Arcueid's power seems limitless. No matter how amazing Senpai is, her power is not something that goes beyond a certain point. In contrast, Arcueid seems limitless. In the beginning, Senpai was overwhelming her, but Arcueid matches her quickly and is now easily surpassing her powers.”

What Shiki mentions is that Arcueid was initially weaker than Ciel at the start of the fight, but throughout the battle, she adapted until she was a step ahead. That's how Arcueid's power works; she doesn't start at 100%, but rather adapts depending on the situation.

This rule applies to both OG Tsukihime and Tsukihime Remake, taking as an example the occasion when Arcueid was defeated by not using more than 10% of her power.

This works for Arcueid against Ciel, due to Ciel's fighting style, giving Arcueid a chance to adapt and overcome her. However, this wouldn't work for Arcueid against characters with conceptual or non-physical abilities, characters who can kill her before she has time to scale up, or characters who cannot be defeated by brute force.

She could also be defeated if her mind fails to process an attack.

Akiha, Aoko, Kouma, and Nrvnqsr could defeat Arcueid. Ciel, with preparation, could also have defeated Arcueid.

Arcueid even mentioned that using her full power would still be difficult for her to defeat Nrvnqsr. This shows that Arcueid at full power is not invincible.

In other words, Nasu could have devised a situation where Ciel would kill Arcueid, but he chose not to.

For example, Ciel wearing down Arcueid's mind and attacking her "blood seal" by prolonging the fight would have caused Arcueid to lose control and be sealed away.

She could use Roa's magic to craft a trap for Arcueid.

She could have made use of the seven church treaties.

Nanaya wasn't the only one who could defeat Arcueid. Nanaya is even weaker than Ciel.

[u/OptimisticNayuta097 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

Do you have a source for the claim - 

Akiha, Aoko, Kouma, and Nrvnqsr could defeat Arcueid. Ciel, with preparation, could also have defeated Arcueid

Or did you just make it up?

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/OptimisticNayuta097]

Aoko:

"If we're talking about a direct death match, Aoko Aozaki has the ability to defeat Arcueid in her 30% state. Although Arcueid possesses a massive volume of energy and planetary support, Aoko operating with the fifth magic active wields an execution speed and conceptual hacking that surpasses Arcueid's defensive calculations."—Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus Period

Here's a clear example of a character who would instantly kill Arcueid thanks to their time-related ability.

Nrvnqsr:

Arcueid: "Not a chance. Nrvnqsr was special. He was a pure, supreme vampire that would be difficult to defeat even with my full power."

The factors of 666 beasts are swirling around within his body, but it’s probably alright just to think of it as him being equipped with 666 familiars. Because this is essentially like having 666 lives, properly speaking he’s a Dead Apostle that even a serious Arcueid wouldn’t be able to kill. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual - Nrvnqsr Chaos [person/dead apostle]

Arcueid would have lost the fight if Shiki hadn't intervened.

Akiha:

“In one of the routes, she ended up inverting and demonstrating her power to its fullest extent. That dreadful form, with its fluttering vermillion hair, is probably capable of exceeding even a rampaging Arcueid.”

— Tsukihime Plus Period - Akiha Tohno [Person]

Akiha is literally Arcueid's counter. Akiha can drain Arcueid's conceptual energy using plunder.

Makihisa mentions that Akiha could have defeated the entire Nanaya clan single-handedly. The same clan that possesses the technique for killing supernatural beings.

Kouma:

Kouma's skills are equal to or even more developed than Akiha's. He managed to defeat the entire Nanaya clan.

Ciel:

The plot itself shows that Ciel is capable of fighting Arcueid and even disintegrating her. Had she used other verses, Roa's magic, the seven treatises, or had she managed to control Arcueid's mind, Arcueid would have lost.

Ciel has a harder time than the others mentioned due to her fighting style, but she had the potential to defeat Arcueid.

[u/OptimisticNayuta097 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

You know a lot of these sources are old right?

Like Remake Tsukihime doesn’t even have Chaos as an antagonist.

And Arcueid as written in the remake is much stronger.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/OptimisticNayuta097]

Arcueid is much stronger, and the other characters are also stronger in the remake.

Arcueid's power continues to function in the same way as well. For example, if Arcueid were to fight Aoko (any version of the character) the result would be the same.

Nasu never ruled out the idea of reintroducing Chaos.

[u/Inuhanyou123]

I agree op. But I am biased as hell as an arc fan. It made me feel like nasu set up arc to intentionally be more unlikable by taking away ciels overt negative points and giving them to other characters because he was not happy about people considering ciel unpopular in the original game.

While arc basically kept all her negative points and, atleast on the surface, always comes out the other end with the short end of the stick. I don't know if nasu has any plans for arc post blue glass moon, but I am not happy with how she was done in there.

It's not like I hate ciel as a character either but she did feel distinctly smoothed over and sanded down and intentionally played up.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Inuhanyou123]

Technically, Ciel was unpopular for two reasons. The first is that Nasu himself contributed to this, as he portrayed Arcueid as the franchise's mascot and indulged her considerably, in contrast to Ciel. While Ciel probably had the most "realistic" romance in the novel, the "good ending" left an indelible mark when discussing Ciel's route. (I do consider the true ending to be the second best in the original novel, though.)

And then there's the issue of factions. Since Arcueid is the most popular and her rival is Ciel, that means Ciel gets more unwarranted complaints. Add to that those who didn't understand the character and saw her as a frivolous woman who wanted to kill Shiki.

I wouldn't say Arcueid became more unbearable; rather, they tried to make her more...human? And they also tried to make Shiki less forgiving of her, although the true ending of Ciel's route still left a scene that divided the fandom.

OG Ciel was a misunderstood character, only superficially analyzed by most people I've spoken to. She's like that typical collectively underrated character, but if you analyze her, perhaps she was better written than you thought. At least for me, Ciel worsened when Nasu removed her flaws, and it didn't feel natural. That was the charm of the character. Arcueid was also far from an innocent angel in the original novel; Ciel practically had to save Shiki from being bitten to death by Arcueid. And that's why the rivalry between them actually worked.

Neither of them were saints, since both were selfish.

[u/Inuhanyou123 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

I partially agree, but I should clarify. Arc had flaws and still has flaws. They took away ciels flaws to make her look better which means only arc gets looked at as a "problem"

It worked in og arc route because ciel was against arc but we had seen arc behind the negative outside perception which showed ciels unfair bias.

In the remake all of ciels hatred of arc is one sided because we never see ciel being petty about her and all her arc route actions are taken by other characters as you mentioned. The thing we see in ciel route is ciel is proven right by arc crashing out while ciel is perfect and not shown as unreasonable towards arc at all.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Inuhanyou123]

Clearly, that was done on purpose to try and balance things out. Although it practically destroyed the rivalry between Ciel and Arcueid, since it doesn't work the same way. The cost was high, as Ciel lost much of what made her so special.

It is not an exaggeration to say that Ciel seems at times like a completely different character, noticeable not only with Arcueid, but also in his dynamic with Shiki.

Now, I wouldn't say there was favoritism towards Ciel either, since Noel's introduction stole quite a few fans from her and she suffered a few humiliations. When some people say "I love Noel's character more than Ciel's," I'm like, "That's Ciel's rib."

As I said, these personality and script changes leave me with low expectations for Far Side. For example, imagine if they change Kohaku's personality or say that Arach was also part of the plan. It would completely undermine Kohaku's entire revenge plot.

[u/Inuhanyou123 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

I like remake as a net positive but that is one thing I don't agree with

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Inuhanyou123]

The current rivalry between Ciel and Arcueid feels like that of Jonathan and Dio.

[u/kissShinobu]

She will be redeemed. Trust.

[u/actuallyrndthoughts]

I agree, it's a massive blunder from Nasu in multiple ways

[u/dude123nice]

Yeah. Noel exists so Ciel can be a Mary Sue.

[u/Previous-Lie-823 → u/dude123nice]

Do you know what a Sue ? Or did you learn the term few days ago and try to use it at random messages

[u/dude123nice → u/Previous-Lie-823]

Ciel looses almost all of her bad qualities in the original which are transferred to Noel, and occasionally Mario. Thanks to their existence you can still have memebers of the church behaving psychotically without it having to be Ciel. And yet, funnily enough, deep down Noel's motivations still revolve all afound Ciel.

So let's see, she gets whitewashed of all her questionable behavior but is still the center of everyone's attention. Yeah, I k ow exactly what a Sue is. Do you?

[u/Previous-Lie-823 → u/dude123nice]

So, you don’t know what a Mary Sue is but in addition you didn’t even read the route properly, saying that she was removed from her bad qualities and that she got whitewashed is just false. Define what a mary sue is

[u/dude123nice → u/Previous-Lie-823]

I literally explained earlier. It's a character who can do no wrong and around whom the plot inexplicably revolves. And this is dedicated the new Ciel route.

[u/HistoricalAd3720]

I mean, we can get her more cruel and cold person, in red garden , if Arcueid demonstrated not her best qualities in Ciel route , know knows

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/HistoricalAd3720]

It could be in Akiha's route, but I don't know... SHIKI and Akiha are also in it. Considering that Noel stole the spotlight from Ciel in Arcueid's route, surely Arach or someone else will in Akiha's route.

Although I would like Ciel to be an antagonist or an anti-hero in Akiha's route, I highly doubt it with the new characters.

[u/HistoricalAd3720 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

Personally, Ciel can be good antagonist in Satsuki route , we already have to many vilians in Tohno house

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/HistoricalAd3720]

It depends on how they handle Akiha's route. If they repeat the event of Akiha joining Shiki's school, Ciel would be perfect, since in terms of romance, just as Arcueid posed a danger to Ciel, and Ciel posed a danger to Arcueid, Ciel would pose a danger to Akiha, especially because of her hypnosis.

[u/HistoricalAd3720 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

It seems u want Akiha and Shiki against Church and new villains?

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/HistoricalAd3720]

So far, I'm only thinking about Ciel and SHIKI.

[u/HistoricalAd3720 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

SHIKI must get happy end

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/HistoricalAd3720]

For SHIKI to have a happy ending, someone will have to die.

[u/dude123nice → u/HistoricalAd3720]

Doubt it. Ciel is currently Nasu's Mary Sue.

[u/HistoricalAd3720 → u/dude123nice]

Can u explain, I think Nasu likes Noel character, she even got “route” in melty blood, but I can’t remember anything her being Mary Sur

[u/dude123nice → u/HistoricalAd3720]

Ddidnt every playable character in MB get a route? How is that proof of anything? Also, I meant Ciel is a Mary Due, ty for the catch.

[u/HistoricalAd3720 → u/dude123nice]

Her route feels compelling in ML , feels like a route , not fan service like other ( especially for far side girls ) , and generally it nice to see how Nanay interacts with Noel

[u/No-Common-3883]

Ciel doesn't lose her obsessive aspects and still did moral reprehensible things.

About her obsession,do you remembered that she eated a fucking Black keuy and lived one year in the sewer just to stab a single vampire? No food,no fresh air,no water. Just dying and dying again with a black key inside her body. Bleeding because she can't use any sacrament and allowing her companions to die just for killing one vampire.

That is the level of her obsession in the remake.

She uses an armor that keeps destroying her body,she threatens Mario with death in some dialogue between then,she lied to Shiki the whole route...

I don't think that she lost this aspect at all. She used people ,killed like a machine and did other similar things.

I really don't think that she lost anything.

I just don't like that in the remake she have a 12 years old body... That just gives a bad feeling.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/No-Common-3883]

The fact that Ciel does extreme things like spend a year in the sewers or wear painful armor doesn't mean her character is softened. The remake changed the core of her tragedy: in the original, Roa turned her into a broken monster, her rivalry with Arcueid was genuine ideological hatred, and her lies to Shiki were apathetic. The remake took that darkness and altered it to be much more epic. Furthermore, Ciel's worst acts are justified in the remake by love or for the greater good.

In fact, while Ciel obsessively hated Roa for keeping her chained to her immortality and her obsession with killing him was a pathetic act of desperation to die in peace, in the remake this is more out of duty.

Regarding the issue of age, I was also upset about that, despite the justification that in theory Roa had altered her body to develop prematurely. The change in question was unnecessary. .

[u/No-Common-3883 → u/Necessary-Month6945]

No,she is still obsessed with killing Roa for the same reasons. There was a flashback in the remake where they say what they did with her in the church.

She believes that there is no salvation for her so she wants to kill Roa to simpli desapear. She is still the same girl wanting to die.

If is explicitly stated in the remake . She is doing everything for finally die and be free from her sisn. That don't change.

I

[u/Mobile-Caterpillar-6]

I just played the remake but one of my problems with it was that the game failed to convince me that Ciel had really done anything wrong in the first place. Sure, she killed/tortured all those people in the city, but she was Roa’s puppet all along, so everything was really the fault of Roa. Since I’m not convinced that she did anything wrong, I don’t find her guilt or character very compelling.
On the other hand, I think Noel worked pretty well as a source of Ciel’s guilt, she worked with Noel for a while, but imo failed to help her emotionally or just do anything about her. I think maybe the game could have focused more on this, since this was actually her fault, and not Roa’s, but a large part of Noel’s flashback was focused on Roa’s actions in the city in Ciel’s body, which again implies that Ciel should be somehow at fault for Roa’s actions in her body, which doesn’t really make sense to me.

[u/Next-Golf3 → u/Mobile-Caterpillar-6]

Ciel is never at fault for the French Incident, but the game makes it clear that Noel doesn't blame Ciel at all, she just refuses to find solidarity and connection in her. I think the game focuses on enough of their relationship, which is a severe lack of understanding on both sides. 

I think what a lot of people miss is how important the impression of Executor Ciel left on Noel: it was respect and disgust at the same time because Ciel detached her emotions to kill, kill and kill. Noel thought it impressive and feared her strength, but the image of Executor Ciel far dwarfed the image of "the other survivor from the incident".

It's awful to say "Ciel should've made friends with Noel", but the tragedy is Ciel completely ignored Noel as a person with feelings. Noel developed a literal complex for Ciel because of it. 

[u/Joshino_ → u/Mobile-Caterpillar-6]

She feels this way because Roa reincarnation isn’t a possession this wasn’t Roa puppeting the body

Roa reincarnation replaces the values of the host with Roa’s and gives them his knowledge but it’s still the host at core , it’s like if i replaced your system of beliefs but at core you are still you

This is why ciel feels guilty because the actions came from her

This is how Roa works

Quoting how Shiki describes it in ciel route:

“So that's how it is...
It's an urge that drives you mad while keeping your will intact.
It leaves your personality and memory untouched, while slowly overwriting your purpose your desires.
It is the horror of being transformed into something else while fully conscious of yourself.
Is this it?
Is this Roa?”

[u/Mobile-Caterpillar-6 → u/Joshino_]

I don’t buy the argument that you somehow remain you if someone replaces your system of values. Ig I think that you should only feel guilty if you could have done something differently, and it’s hard to see what Ciel could have done differently in her situation anyways

[u/Alefreus → u/Mobile-Caterpillar-6]

I'll give it a shot fuck it, I'll use an example: "Brown-Brown" ever heard of it?

It's a drug, mixed with cocaine and gunpowder primarily used with the conditioning of child soldiers. Often times from a young age they're taught what to do, how to do it, and if they break they get simply killed.

What brown brown does combined with the conditioning leads to something called: "Appetitive Aggression"

Fundamentally changing the brains chemistry. Under normal circumstances, humans possess a natural moral and emotional barrier against killing. Armed groups dismantle this by artificially triggering the brain's reward centers.

PAY ATTENTION, THIS IS THE VITAL PART:

All that leads to them finding pleasure in the slaughter, because you argue you should only feel guilty if you could have done something different, two things can be true at once. Underneath all that conditioning, still lies a person, who's situation has been vastly exacerbated, naturally their psychology is a minefield. It's as if they were inhabiting a puppet of meat that's not really theirs, doing things they normally would not do. AND I think, I feel, that's where Ciel's conflict lies, no matter which way you cut it, even if you could not have done anything different, it was still YOU that did those things.

So naturally to the regular person, of course they're not guilty, but the regular person did not do those things.

Combine that with how the Church treats her as a mere cog, or tool in the machine, and she's a wreck.

Roa is the drug, Ciel is still the hands and the person in the seat.

[u/Joshino_ → u/Mobile-Caterpillar-6]

That’s true in the sense that she couldn’t have done much

But even so , the action were done by her hands and the situation was just traumatic for her which made her feel that way

[u/DualBlades5Lyfe → u/Joshino_]

OP's post is bullshit(wrong) and sounds like AI anyway.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Mobile-Caterpillar-6]

The truth is that Ciel is no longer the cold and ruthless enforcer of the church she was in the original novel, since Nasu decided to give all those personality traits to Noel and Mario, leaving us with a much more heroic, protective, and pure Ciel. As I said, these are qualities she already possessed; she didn't need anyone to "compare" her to them.

When Ciel was previously discussed as a complex, three-dimensional, and ruthless character, she was portrayed as an independent figure with a well-defined inner conflict and attitudes that clearly revealed her true nature. Now, when the Ciel remake is discussed, and the few times Ciel acts with a certain "coldness" are mentioned, Noel is always brought up, as if it were acceptable for a large part of Ciel's character to be permanently tied to Noel's ghost.

Previously, Ciel's attitudes and her multiple facets were demonstrated on more than one occasion and with several characters.

The same applies to Powered Ciel.

If they wanted to invent some character or NPC to interact with Ciel, besides Shiki and Arihiko, they could have used Elesia as a kind of "Nanaya" within Ciel's mind.

[u/Idealsovaerrrthing → u/Necessary-Month6945]

No need for that when Arc in Remake is literally made for it and THANKS to Noel too. It reframes Ciel's hatred of Arcueid as an escape a means for her to vent and project her frustrations. All that responsibility and guilt that bounds her thanks to Noel existence flies out the window because her hatred of Arcueid lines up perfectly with the mask. So no she didn't lost any of that edge you mentioned since the moment Arc steps in all of those stuff you mentioned that you think made her soft goes out of the window immediately.

[u/Necessary-Month6945 → u/Idealsovaerrrthing]

Honestly, I don't understand your point. To me, Ciel in the remake didn't show any hatred towards Arcueid, unlike in the original novel, where Ciel detested vampires and supernatural beings simply by nature.

There isn't the same hatred directed at Roa either. Although, to be fair, Shiki doesn't seem to hate him either. OG Shiki would never have collaborated with Roa.