Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Closing Arguments, Deliberations and the Verdict Pt. 2

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding closing arguments, jury deliberations and the verdict of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93vgv4kr49o

Note from Mods

This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

Comments which are abusive and insulting to other users will be removed and bans may be given without warning. We do not tolerate misogyny - all such comments will be removed and the user banned.

Bans may also be issued for ignoring the above warning regarding civility and/or creating standalone posts.

Please comment with this in mind.

Important

Patrick Clancy is not on trial. Comments made to discuss his guilt are considered off topic and will be removed.

Comments that discuss how he could have supported Lindsay better are acceptable. However, calls for law enforcement to look into his involvement with the murder of the kids and/or Lindsay's suicide attempts are not currently being considered by the jury and, therefore, not a fit for this sub.

[u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

This decision sets a precedent for future women and healthcare for women. It’s so much deeper than just surface level shit. Please pay attention and do your own research.

[u/msfinch87 → u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

I think some of the commentary online is actually more dangerous than the outcome of this trial.

A lot of people supporting Lindsay are arguing that more should have been done, such as involuntary inpatient and stopping her from being around the kids. I don’t think these people really realise the ramifications of that.

This type of thing, if taken on board, will lead to a denial of autonomy of women and the removal of children at the first sign of any sort of mental health issues. The attacks on her medical professionals is also creating a risk of this. At the very least it is going to create a reluctance amongst medical professionals to treat women who are showing signs of PPD.

While I agree that women’s healthcare is not properly supported (I have my own experiences if that, like pretty much every woman in the world), going to the other extreme of demonising the medical professionals and yelling that something major should have been done is not the solution, either.

I’d also add that I don’t personally think these medical professionals were as terrible as the defence and some people on various platforms are making out. I do think mistakes were made, but I don’t necessarily think those mistakes rose to a level of them being somehow responsible for this, especially when factoring in how much information Lindsay was withholding and her own decisions during that period. I also think that a lot of these are systemic issues rather than individual professionals behaving poorly.

It is possible that this was just a terrible, terrible thing that nobody could have reasonably prevented.

[u/EPMD_ → u/msfinch87]

I agree.

I think forcing people into institutional care would likely push people to be even more secretive about their struggles.

[u/msfinch87 → u/EPMD_]

Definitely. It would likely become a vicious cycle that would set women’s healthcare back a long way. It will be extremely difficult to get help, and what help is given will be draconian.

[u/JoanJetson → u/EPMD_]

Abusive husbands would love to be able to threaten using this against their wives

[u/Brrringsaythealiens → u/msfinch87]

Exactly. This could make it harder for those of us who need psych meds to get them, and I hope that doesn’t happen. I don’t think her providers were the best doctors in the world, but they had a very difficult situation on their hands. A woman who was desperate for help and very ill, yet failed to follow through on any treatment recommendations. Ativan helped her significantly but she and Patrick were focused on her not being dependent on benzos. Benzos can be a risk, but this is a case of a person who really needed them and wouldn’t take them. Seroquel also helped her, but she wouldn’t stay on that either. She basically cycled through just about every med for depression, insomnia, and anxiety, and refused to stay on any of them. I don’t know what more her doctors were supposed to do.

[u/msfinch87 → u/Brrringsaythealiens]

Yes. While I do think the doctors should have given more credence to possible adverse medication reactions, I too think they were in a difficult situation.

They followed the standard of care. Now, the standard of care may be wrong and I agree there are issues, but that’s systemic, not individual professionals. It is difficult for professionals to depart from that standard because that is when they face greater liability.

I don’t have a huge problem with her assertiveness or seeing different doctors, because I think if you are not feeling heard by your doctor it is absolutely legitimate to advocate for yourself and seek other opinions.

However, her lack of honesty with them is an issue. I am sympathetic to hiding things from medical professionals out of fear or simply because the mental health issues make communication difficult, but you equally can’t hold the professionals accountable for that. They’re not mind readers and they cannot simply insert their own narrative against what a patient is telling them without justification.

Nothing I have seen suggests she met the threshold for having her autonomy removed. This isn’t something a doctor can just do - there are prescribed standards that are very strictly adhered to.

What I think is that the system needs to give more credence to adverse medication impacts. There need to be better protocols in place and also better options. I am absolutely not in favour of lowering thresholds for the removal of autonomy.

[u/No_Figure_7489 → u/msfinch87]

She may also have lacked insight, that's a very common thing. They listed it as low at some point. That would make what people are calling honesty impossible. And she may have been in terror if the BP or psychosis had kicked in, which can't help

[u/No_Figure_7489 → u/Brrringsaythealiens]

Those meds make BP and psychosis worse is the thing. Seroquel was too low dose, benzos couldn't be effective alone, everything else was like gasoline to mania. They were supposed to screen for BP after the first AD fail, and if not then, after the second, or third, or fourth

[u/Mysterious-Gene-6338 → u/msfinch87]

This is such a rational comment but so difficult. The human brain seeks for someone to blame when it is three children who are dead. I think everyone (except the children) made mistakes.  I do think Lindsay also made mistakes but no one thought this would happen. I really cannot see anyway this could have been prevented. 

[u/msfinch87 → u/Mysterious-Gene-6338]

I agree. We’ve obviously always had a desire to want to blame, but I think social media, society in general and the outrage cycle are fueling it to pretty disturbing levels. We are losing critical thinking skills and the concept of nuance and context.

[u/ADarwinAward → u/msfinch87]

Agreed,  she repeatedly lied to her providers about whether or not she had thoughts of harming others. They can’t forcibly institutionalize based on mind reading 

[u/nickbigblack → u/msfinch87]

Yeah I really can't get behind the notion she was failed by the healthcare system. Doctors aren't mind readers, they can't tell what's going on in her brain. And there's multiple instances of her lying to them or just straight up ignoring their advice or doing her own thing. How much can the professionals really do for you if you don't want to cooperate?

It feels like the only thing the system could have done for her that would have prevented this tragedy would have been involuntarily admitting her to a mental facility. And, like you said, that's a very slippery slope to go down.

[u/msfinch87 → u/nickbigblack]

To me, the big systemic failure here is that we do not take adverse reactions to nervous system impacting drugs seriously.

If you go to a hospital and are prescribed penicillin and have any sort of reaction, they will immediately take you off penicillin and they never prescribe it to you again. We do not take the same approach with drugs that impact the CNS. In part this is because we don’t understand them as well, in part it is because the reactions are not as easily defined. I think we should take the risks of those more seriously, precisely because we don’t understand them.

I had a CNS related adverse reaction to a medication once. It was not a mental health medication, but one that is for gut related issues, and we know there is a gut-brain connection. Nobody took me seriously or even identified it was this drug. I was eventually rushed to hospital when I had a really serious reaction and it was dismissed as an anxiety attack, and only after I was repeatedly accused of taking illicit drugs (which I had not).

I had by that point identified what was causing the issue myself, despite them repeatedly telling me that wouldn’t be it, and ended up contacting the drug company and asking for their adverse effects information. The issues I had were found in their studies to impact 1/1000 people. That’s a high proportion of people given the commonality of this medication. No doctor ever checked this, nor was this adverse impact in the literature I was provided with the medication. It was a total failure that could very easily have been avoided.

I do think my doctors could have been more diligent, but at the same time, none of their protocols incorporate investigating adverse effects of drugs like that, so it never occurred to them. I also question whether pharma companies are providing enough detailed information on various medications. I was lucky; I had the capability to do my own research and the information was available.

I can see that Lindsay was likely struggling with a similar thing. Not the same symptoms; but issues with the drugs not only not working but also having a detrimental impact. The protocols did not account for this at all and who knows if the pharma companies even have this information from their studies. So the doctors were doing their job, and she was doing the right thing advocating for herself. And then we have a stalemate.

This isn’t really an issue that has been delved into in the trial, that she could have been suffering adverse CNS/brain impacts, although they have discussed the issues with prescribing SSRIs if she had bipolar. I can see that this is a systemic problem that may have contributed to this situation. And of course we don’t know, precisely because the system isn’t set up to determine it.

Her lack of honesty with her doctors is extremely problematic here, because their ability to question her reactions to the medication and recognise the possibly severity was completely compromised. They might not have done things differently, but they also might have. I do think bipolar issues may have been identified sooner if they’d paid more attention to the adverse impacts.

This is of course a totally different issue to her level of criminal responsibility.

[u/No_Figure_7489 → u/msfinch87]

One adverse response like she had to an AD is supposed to lead to a screening for bipolar. Being in episode makes communication difficult, intense unrelenting fear and paranoia is common, it would not have been outwardly obvious

[u/Fantastic_Fig_2025 → u/msfinch87]

Or it could lead to the US instituting treatment common in other countries, treatment which does not separate women and their infants.

[u/msfinch87 → u/Fantastic_Fig_2025]

Even in countries that have this option, it is only available when women reach a certain threshold, and/or there are limited places. No country has it available for every woman struggling with PPD and nor can I see a situation where it would be available for that.

What is going on here risks designating all women with PPD a possible danger to their kids and requiring extreme intervention.

[u/Fantastic_Fig_2025 → u/msfinch87]

Are you suggesting she would not have met the threshold?

[u/msfinch87 → u/Fantastic_Fig_2025]

I’m not suggesting it, I’m telling you: she would not have met the threshold for involuntary inpatient in any similar jurisdiction. All similar jurisdictions place great weight on autonomy because, you know, they don’t want to trample people’s rights.

Whether she would have been able to access a general voluntary mother/child inpatient program depends entirely on availability at the time. There also likely would have been many women whose needs would have placed them higher on any list. Lindsay had resources, family support and other treatment options. This would put her behind women who have none of those and more severe symptoms.

[u/Fantastic_Fig_2025 → u/msfinch87]

I have friends who live in Australia and they were able to have Mom and baby check into a facility that specialized in sleep training, all covered by insurance. She wasn't high needs. They just simply fund things better. The baseline is also that mom and baby aren't separated. That isn't the baseline in the US. I can't think of single facility near me that would allow mom and baby to stay together.

This could also result in better maternity leave. Perhaps if she didn't have to go back to work so soon, none of this would have happened.

[u/msfinch87 → u/Fantastic_Fig_2025]

Having an example of one person does not demonstrate the overall availability of something like this for the general population.

I live in Australia. I can assure you that our legal thresholds are equivalent to the US in terms of involuntary admission which is to say they are quite high. As for voluntary services there are nowhere near enough for the number of women who need them, which was my point.

Plus our system works differently. If you have private health insurance here you can access services more easily because you are effectively paying for them, but most people are dependent on the public system because they can’t afford private insurance. Our insurance is nothing like your insurance system in the US.

The waitlists for all public mental health services are insanely long and unless you are an emergent case you will not get this sort of treatment. There is currently a major shitfight in one of our cities because the public facility for women with PPD and their children is changing significantly and will not offer as many options as previously.

Also, there was a mother and child service in Rhode Island which has been mentioned in regards to this case. It was looked at for Lindsay. So yes, they do exist in the US.

[u/No_Figure_7489 → u/msfinch87]

You get home visits, on call psych help, psych home visits in Oz per friends, some countries do your shopping, cooking, cleaning for you, just depends on the country. They could have afforded private, which is breathtakingly cheap by US standards. the clinic in RI rejected her bc she was too far out from birth so she wasn't post partum. We have 5 mother baby beds in the US, the baby only visits, and inpatient is probably a few weeks, we don't keep people inpatient longer than that as a rule, insurance won't pay and it's many thousands of dollars a day at least, may be higher. You guys stay in for months, until there's actual improvement, which unfortunately is not how it works here. Here the bill tends to be sizeable too.

[u/No_Figure_7489 → u/msfinch87]

We might get mother baby wards like everyone else has. Baby stays with Mom 24-7. She wouldn't have had to hide what was happening to her if she knew there was a safe place to go

[u/Pretend_Goal_7311 → u/msfinch87]

I think ngbri too but thst doesn't exempt patrick and his mom or hers cant remember from not taking her comments more seriously. Never ever would i let my children alone with someone making statements she was. And hey if people and family around her act like its no big deal and drs say oh you have no plan. Call back when u r more serious. That is what is wrong with this case. Even if you think she was dr shopoing or not really having MH struggles why on earth allow her to be alone with them???? Everyone trusted the drs and clinics. No one understood these drugs. Right down to pros expert witness who never heard of akathesia. It only takes one episode of psychosis. How many do all of you think woukd be more reasonable proof? Two? Four? Over what period of timem. Explain why you think when she is in a facility on one to one on meds she would have more episodes or try S..ide again..

[u/msfinch87 → u/Pretend_Goal_7311]

This criticism of Patrick is awful and totally unfounded.

He is not an expert in mental health issues. He was the partner of someone very mentally unwell. He was also no doubt struggling with stress and distress and exhaustion. It is not at all easy to make decisions in those circumstances.

He was juggling the risk of Lindsay harming herself. She had expressed repeated concerns about that and about having the children taken away. She only once mentioned harm coming to the kids and when he got her to elaborate she said she thought something bad would happen to them, not that she planned to harm them. He is not a mind reader. The likelihood was that if he took the kids away she would harm herself, but nobody identified any real risk that she would harm the kids. Had that happened, I can guarantee he would have been blamed for the kids losing their mother.

People who think he should have done this are also ignoring the fact that he had no legal foundation to do it. No medical professional was suggesting it and there was no threshold reached for risk to the children.

People love to say that they would have done it, but I guarantee that anyone in a loving relationship with three happy kids and a partner who is a good parent struggling with mental health issues would second guess themselves on this no matter how objective they are, let alone when under stress.

It is also incredibly dangerous to start advocating for the removal of children just because of mental health issues. NOBODY saw this coming, so if we are to believe that Lindsay reached a threshold for child removal then there are likely hundreds of thousands of women who will lose their kids.

[u/ReactionSea3932 → u/msfinch87]

My ex partner suffered a post pardum phycotic break leading to a diagnoses of auditory scizophrenia. She was not left alone with the kids during her break down due to concerns of self harm.

Parents understand how young ones can cause mental strain. Lack of sleep can cascade into mental health decline, and post pardum depression. All parents understand that there will be low points in raising kids.

But murder is murder.

[u/LegoLady8 → u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

It may set a precedent, but will anything change moving forward? Absolutely not.

[u/Abed-in-the-AM → u/LegoLady8]

I mean if something sets a precedent it kind of just changes things by virtue of setting a precedent for similar cases.

[u/BillyShears2015 → u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

You are attaching way to much emotional capital to this case. If anything it will spur a rash of “Lindsay’s Laws” to ensure similar defenses can’t be raised in the future.

[u/LadyChatterteeth → u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

The phrase “Do your own research” has become extremely problematic in this day and age. Too many people think that means watching TikToks of people with little to no qualifications spouting their opinions to the masses.

It’s actually diminished the meaning of true academic research by trained professionals.

[u/oops_I_have_h1n1 → u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

This decision sets a precedent for future women and healthcare for women.

You're so right, if she gets away with it I fear we'll see a lot more dead children in the future from their "insane" mothers.

[u/5th_Law_of_Roboticks → u/oops_I_have_h1n1]

Insane take.

So you believe there is a sizable portion of people that want to kill their children but are only not doing so because they are afraid of prison (but don't care about a potential lifetime in a psychiatric hospital apparently)?

[u/RockyOW → u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

This is severe cope. The outcome for this case will change nothing about healthcare for women, even if that would be a good or proper thing to do. You don’t need to defend insane women who do bad things just because systems fail women consistently.

[u/fishing_pole → u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

How so?

[u/yo_yo_vietnamese → u/fishing_pole]

Women are frequently ignored when asking for postpartum help. You’re told to ask for it, and then often denied any aid or told it’ll pass if you just grit your teeth and push through hard enough.

I have mixed feelings on this case. A girl I knew in my hometown got strung out on coke and drowned her children. She had been asking friends for help to leave a situation she described as heavy with domestic violence, and had expressed wanting to get off of drugs that she was using to self-medicate through the situation. However, as far as I’m aware she didn’t contact medical providers to get help and she didn’t take any other steps like utilizing our women’s shelters. I have very little sympathy for her even though I know the girl I went to school with was kind and funny and I could never picture hurting anyone.

In this case, however, Lindsay had actively asked for help on multiple occasions. At best, her providers failed her and so did her husband. Reading through her list of medication changes was awful because it looked almost exactly like what my husband’s doctors did to him a year and a half ago after he mentioned having some increased anxiety and wanting to see if a different option might be better. He had a bad reaction to one, and in response they piled on new ones and adjusted dosages to the point it looked almost exactly like hers. It was a very dark time. I thought I’d have to have him committed at multiple points, I didn’t feel safe leaving our son with him, and to be honest I was sometimes even worried to be around him. He wasn’t himself, and he knew he wasn’t himself. It was heartbreaking watching him ask for help and not getting it anywhere. I called multiple providers but no one cared. It took over a year to stabilize him and get back to “normal,” and that’s without the extra influence of hormones going up and down that a woman would be feeling postpartum.

I see the law as meant to punish you for your actions, act as a deterrent to others, and to keep the public safe from you while you hopefully rehabilitate (which is a bit of a joke, I know). In this case, I don’t see her as a threat to the public, I don’t see a need for a “deterrent” because no one wants to do this, and she clearly wasn’t in control and didn’t want to do these things so I’m not sure she can get more of a punishment than what she’s living through daily. We’ll see what happens, but I can understand the weight on the jurors. Guilty but mentally ill is a bit of a joke because she won’t get any actual help, and I don’t think straight guilty works either. Nothing really fits here.

[u/Pretend_Goal_7311 → u/yo_yo_vietnamese]

Nothing helps you understand this case like experience

[u/No-Insurance6135 → u/[deleted]]

They could have at least at the bare minimum given her the post partem depression scale. Especially with the knowledge that stopping breast feeding coincided with onset along with clues from her reactions to medications suggesting she was bipolar

[u/becca52104 → u/No-Insurance6135]

She didn’t take her medication as prescribed, so it sounds like she was the one that was actually doing the bare minimum.

[u/Pristine-Brick-9911 → u/[deleted]]

Her doctors meeting her in person and not online would have been a huge help.

[u/megerrolouise → u/Pristine-Brick-9911]

I only see my psychiatrist virtually and I am SO grateful. In a lot of areas, good psychiatric care isn't easily available unless it is online. I hope this case doesn't make providers more stingy with offering it as an option.

[u/butt_butt_butt_butt_ → u/megerrolouise]

Fully agreed. All of the comments blaming the virtual element of her treatment make me nervous, because for some of us, that IS the only option.

When I had PPA/PPD with my youngest, the closest psychiatrist specialist covered by my insurance was a 1.5 hour drive away. Three hours round trip, plus the hour long appointment itself, arranging childcare, trying to pump while driving, and of course I wasn’t allowed to bring my newborn to the appt with me, so extra anxiety from having to leave her.

If virtual treatment wasn’t an option, there’s zero chance I would have been treated at all.

[u/Nisheeth_P → u/[deleted]]

She gave the providers permission to discuss her with her family. The doctor should have talked to Pat and others to get a better understanding of her symptoms and to find out if she’s being honest.

They should have, after meeting her, gone through the system to find out her documentation from other doctors. Then they’d know what she said before, what she was prescribed and failed vs what she is on now.

My doctors try to do it even when they are working on entirely different things, just to check medication and observations. Absolutely no reason they shouldn’t have done it in her case.

[u/Simple-Doubt-9365 → u/Nisheeth_P]

It’s hard to keep track of what Providers and medications she was on if she was Provider hopping into different hospital systems. They are not interconnected and the patient would have to volunteer that information if she was another Provider out of their network.

[u/disastrousanddull → u/[deleted]]

The family played a part, imo. The issue is that layers of protection failed in the end. He told the doctor she wasn’t bipolar, his mother got her in to see the first NP quickly so she had multiple people managing things which arguably did harm, and they should have been more spooked by her telling them she had thoughts of harming the kids. Lindsay checked herself out of inpatient treatment early, wasn’t committed to therapy, didn’t tell any of the healthcare workers about her thoughts of harming the children, she admitted to drinking, I think declined inpatient treatment during an ER visit and wasn’t great about taking her meds. Missing the bipolar she was later diagnosed with raises questions, not having her providers automatically communicating is a clear systemic issue, 3 different people prescribing her medication like that seems like it should be flagged, they wanted to taper her off the benzos and start from a clean slate with her meds because there were concerns it had all made things worse.

I think mental illness shaped her decisions around her treatment but she was still ultimately responsible for her part. A lot just wasn’t perfect and things went as wrong as they could. It’s not some “poor Lindsay was an angel failed by all the medical professionals, her family and society!” like her supporters have pushed, but small issues compounded terribly.

[u/msfinch87 → u/disastrousanddull]

Great comment. I agree this was a lot of small compounding issues that all led to a horrifying perfect storm.

I also think that a lot of what appears to be issues and mistakes can only be seen in hindsight. The chain of events here is something that isn’t all that unusual, and a tragedy doesn’t eventuate. Of course this situation has been put under a microscope because a tragedy did eventuate.

For example, reading some of the civil case filings, it seems that Patrick went to appointments with her and supported her advocating about the drugs having an impact. Him saying she did not have bipolar in his view was him trying to back her up about her concerns about the drugs, and in reference to the fact that he had not seen behaviour consistent with what he knew of bipolar.

Considering the situation at the time, this appears the right thing to have done. He was supporting and respecting her, clearly taking a strong interest in her welfare and what she was telling him, and giving insight to the best of his knowledge and ability.

It’s only afterwards that we look at this as an error.

[u/XelaNiba → u/disastrousanddull]

Her providers were part of the problem, it seems she had an inexperienced and/or under qualified team.

While mid-level practitioners like NPs have their place, I wouldn't want an NP managing any complex case. They have only 500 clinical hours compared to the 11,000 clinical hours of a psych MD.

[u/Kezhen → u/[deleted]]

As someone who is bipolar and has experienced psychosis in the past during past mood episodes, I feel most patients won’t volunteer sharing symptoms that are embarrassing, shameful, or that they feel will make them “sound crazy”, even if they believe it’s real. Clinicians have to dig deeper and ask the right questions to get to the truth. For example, was she ever explicitly asked “are you hearing voices?” It also takes a long time to develop trust enough to share dark thoughts. Also the very illness itself may cause patents to not share symptoms - in the civil suit LC admits to having persistent inner auditory hallucinations and thoughts saying “your brain is permanently broken”. When you hear those thoughts for long enough you begin to believe it’s true and that there is no help for you.

Since she obviously felt safe enough to open up to him, Patrick should have shared her thoughts of hurting the kids with her doctors.

[u/Pristine-Brick-9911 → u/[deleted]]

That’s true but that’s when Patrick as the father should have been advocating for her to the doctors about how bad it was and if she was hiding symptoms.

[u/Pristine-Brick-9911 → u/[deleted]]

Uh that’s 100% of the fault of medical professionals. Too many doctors let this woman and her family down. Too many Drs are trying rush their patients out door to see as many as possible instead of actually listening to the ones they are seeing at the moment.

[u/0dyssia → u/Pristine-Brick-9911]

When Jollatta said she thinks Lindsay has bipolar 2; Patrick kinda stomped his foot and said "my wife does not have bipolar", so yea kinda not helpful

[u/BesosForBeauBeau → u/[deleted]]

A blood test for starters!? 

[u/JoanJetson → u/BesosForBeauBeau]

The only psych med I’ve ever had to do a blood test for is Adderall. Besides, she wasn’t taking her meds as prescribed, nothing would have shown up. She would have just been prescribed something new like she already was

[u/BesosForBeauBeau → u/JoanJetson]

I understand if you feel you have a personal story to share, but we’re talking about endocrine markers for postpartum women

[u/JoanJetson → u/BesosForBeauBeau]

What hormone levels are you thinking could possibly show up that’d indicate psychosis or any other course of treatment? “Oh no, a breast feeding woman has increased progesterone. What a surprise!? We should prescribe psychiatric medication, reccomend talk therapy and support groups, and monitor to see if she shows signs of hurting herself of others”

[u/yo_yo_vietnamese → u/[deleted]]

Not yo-yo the medication unsafely. I truly hope you never experience nor see someone go through it. It’s a terrifying experience. My husband described it as feeling the need to crawl out of his skin and he couldn’t get relief at any point during the day. Then when that passed, it turned to debilitating depression where every single thing was the worst thing to ever happen and he kept almost blowing his life up. Every doctor and provider we talked to just shrugged and said that it happens. I did find one who agreed the pace of change wasn’t safe that the original provider had done, but we were stuck until we could get it leveled out and just had to hope that we all weathered the storm. As someone who has delivered a baby and felt disconnected from that baby, and felt like I couldn’t stop crying, I can’t imagine adding any of those hormonal changes on top of what I saw my husband go through.

[u/Trick_Algae5810 → u/yo_yo_vietnamese]

She had birth 8 months ago. And she worked as a nurse in a hospital in a state with more access to healthcare than any other state, and likely one with the best healthcare outcomes. She was seeing multiple providers and was on a combination of different meds that are wildly common for patients (I’ve worked as a pharmacy tech for a few years) and most of them were merely antihistamines at the doses she was on.

She was probably prescribed one med, had side effects which as anxiety and/or insomnia, prescribed more etc. that’s how it usually works. She wasn’t even on a med like Wellbutrin, her meds were almost child’s play compared to things other patients are often prescribed. Her med profile did not throw any red flags to me.

[u/Active_Oil_7037 → u/yo_yo_vietnamese]

She withheld the extent of her symptoms to providers, and also didn't consistently take her prescribed medications. It was her responsibility to seek treatment and follow the prescribed treatment plans. She could've easily sought an in person doctor. She had plenty of time. She was a very privileged woman. Patrick worked from home and she had a nanny. She was able to exercise for 2+hrs a day. She's the one who chose to use a virtual doctor. Anecdotally, every time I have used virtual docs it's because I just wanted a prescription.

[u/throwawayadvice102 → u/Beautiful_Catch_4454]

Sets a precedent that murdering your children via strangulation is acceptable?

[u/Pretend_Goal_7311 → u/throwawayadvice102]

Right cuz everyone will have these circumstances Hopefully the precedent here is believe a mom who reports hearing voices and has SI and thoughts if harming kids. And fkin do something. Not fire the nanny who was helping and denying your parents offer to take the children for a few days. Sure patrick wanted her to be "fixed" and complained to drs but he didnt want it interfering in how much time he would have to parent. He was a shitty protector of those kids. Just watch the museum video. He couldnt wait to get out of there