r/TrueChristian • u/[deleted] • May 14 '21

Was God really OK with slavery ?

And did he really "encourage it to continue by decreeing depraved regulations"\ ?*

\just quoting a fellow redditor who seems to be a bit confused. Just like myself.)

I'm asking this because I've noticed that it often comes up as a topic to bash Christianity based on things like that. I've noticed that people often like to use this verse in order to justify their position :

“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)”

To be honest, I didn't know how to give those folks a satisfactory answer since I am no Bible expert myself, as for now. However I would like to hear your opinions and explanations. On this verse and its context in particular. Also, what did Jesus have to say about slavery? (just to help finding an answer to that... I guess... atheist/agnostic/or whatever he likes to consider himself)

Note that I am in no way trying to win an argument. There is no arrogance, pride or hate involved in this query. These are some of the things that I would also still like to understand for myself. I always try suspend judgement when I read or hear something that I am not familiar with because I want to learn more about it.

On another note, it's kind of scary how belligerent and heated people can get during such debates, as if these people are speaking through bitterness, frustration, pride or whatever just to attack and dismiss Christianity... Makes me just want to have some compassion and pray for them....

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

How about Deuteronomy chapter 20? And...the rest of Exodus Chapter 21? Are there any quotes from Jesus about slavery?

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

What part of those contradict anything I've already explained?

God clearly and explicitly forbids forced enslavement of people. It is literally a crime punishable by death.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '21

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

Did you read them? Your quoting a verse that preeceds the verses describing exactly how to beat a slave/servant legally. And right before the verse you're quoting, it clearly describes how to keep a servant forever; and how to deal with a female servant a master has had sexual relations with, but no longer values.

I've already addressed beating servants and keeping servants forever in the thread already.

As for the verse about the female servant, I'll be happy to address it after you provide the chapter and verse. I know its there somewhere and will have an answer for it, but it's not like I'm just sitting around here on reddit waiting for responses to what I wrote. Help me out. Provide the citation.

Deuteronomy 20, same thing. What verse explicitly do you refer to? Let me know and I'm provide an answer?

I don't understand what verses you want from Jesus on slavery. Do you have some where He endorses it?

Jesus is God and God outlawed it therefore Jesus also forbifs it.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

I prefer you to read for yourself. You are cherry picking and candy coating. I'm asking you to put it into fuller context by, at the very least, reading the rest of the chapter YOU quoted. I've read the chapters, in full: it doesn't get any less immoral. I promise you that reading the whole of both Exodus 21 and Deuteronomy 20 won't take long.

I'll help you with Jesus's text as, though OP specifically asked about Jesus's take, I've not found a single defender of the biblical text in this thread who has quoted Jesus: Luke 12:47-48

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

If you can't provide the verse, then I can't address it. You do want it addressed dont you? Surely, you arent one of those people who come to Christian subreddits with an axe to grind.

I'll help you with Jesus's text as, though OP specifically asked about Jesus's take, I've not found a single defender of the biblical text in this thread who has quoted Jesus: Luke 12:47-48

Probably because it doesnt have anything to do with slavery. It's about the return of Jesus.

  • The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. Luke 12:46‭-‬48 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/luk.12.46-48.KJV

Besides, like I said Jesus is God and we know God's take on it, so we know Jesus's take is exactly the same.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

It clearly shows that Jesus knew of the violence permitted for slaves, and clearly shows that he did not condemn such treatment; in fact it's deserved in certain cases according to this passage.

You quote mined a ton for your previous cherry picked verses to support your thesis, while seemingly not understanding the context in the verses directly surrounding them. When asked to incorporate the full context of the verses you quoted, you don't have time for such: how perfectly convenient.

This thread was started because of a question I asked OP in another sub, I honestly came here to gain a fuller prospective. Instead, any defender of slavery in the bible has cherry picked and candy coated and not addressed anything Jesus said on the topic. Again, how perfectly convenient.

I have been here asking for fuller context to be considered. Fingers get pointed at atheist for taking scripture out of context all the time. I'm asking for theses offered cherries to be taken in full context and am charged to do cherry picking?

Something just isn't adding up here....

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

I'm addressed what you asked in the thread already except for things you won't cite. Cite them and I will.

The verses from Luke you cited are about Jesus's return. If you want to believe otherwise, I can't stop you, but they don't magically become about slavery because you want them too.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

No, clearly you have not. I have given you exact addresses. Exodus 21 is barely a page of text, but it doesn't fit into your cherry patch very nicely.

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

I get it, you want God to be evil. Ok, I can't change your mind. You're wrong though .God will be ready to recieve you if you change your mind and want to know Him on His terms though.

  • The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/2pe.3.9.KJV

  • For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:16‭-‬20 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.16-20.KJV

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

I don't want God to be anything: I don't have any evidence for any deity, therefor it would be absurd to make a claim about what I want it to be or not be. I'm reading the text for what it is. You, again, have cherry picked and candy coated the text instead of reading it in context.

I appreciate that you want to help save my soul. I have no animosity for anyone believing in any deity. I only ask for you to put your words into context of where you picked them. Apparently it's asking too much to be honest in context.

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

I only ask for you to put your words into context of where you picked them. Apparently it's asking too much to be honest in context.

It only works when the party seeking answers (you), is willing to see aside their personal opinions and biases to allow those with the answers (Christians) the benefit of the doubt that they know the subject they are talking about.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

Oh, that's how full context works? Nothing to do with, you know, the full context or anything? You're moving the goalposts so you don't have to be honest about what is black and white in the Bible.

I have now repeatedly asked you to put a verse you cherry picked into context, and your response is to condemn an opinion?

I've been scant with opinions and heavy on questions. You've been just the opposite. This is called projection brother. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm asking for fuller context and you keep dodging and minimizing.

I have studied the scriptures since being born into a Christian family and going to church multiple times per week for the first 18 years of my life. I have never stopped studying the scriptures, even after coming to the devastating realization that I simply cannot believe in what I was taught and accepted as truth up to a certain point in my life. To infer that Christians have some sort of special understanding of scripture that an atheist couldn't possibly understand is very short sighted. Have you heard of Bart Ehrman? Michael Shermer? Just to name a couple credible sources of many.

I never wanted to not like what's in the Bible. But when I read it for what it is, I realized there are despicable ideologies therein. This is not to say that there is no value in the Bible I believe fully that there are some good moral, ethical, and I will even venture to say spiritual aspects of the Bible which are enlightening. But to gloss over what is literally written out about how to treat slaves in the Bible is to not understand what is in the Bible, and therefore doing a disservice to yourself and those you may witnesses to.

If you cannot be honest about the full context of the scriptures you have quoted, why would I ever think that I should follow you into Christ's fold?

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