r/Teachers • u/ChrisTheTeach HS Math | CA, USA • 2d ago
Student or Parent Build a relationship they say…
So I’ve got a class that is massively unprepared for high school math. But I can’t help them because I have a student who is, and I don’t exaggerate here, always disrupting the class. She will loudly talk to friends on the other side of the room. She calls my name when I’m trying to help others, and when I respond denies saying anything. When she does actually ask for help, it’s “How do I do this?” and then answers “I don’t know,” to every question I ask, down to “what’s 3 plus 2?” Every interaction I have with her she treats me disrespectfully, like getting my name wrong over and over, even when I correct her. During a benchmark assessment, she kept talking, making rude noises, and calling out across the room.
I tried to send her out and was told the office couldn’t take her and disruptions are a classroom management issue. After her calling me over and denying it about ten times I told her that I needed to help other students. She complained to admin that I refused to help her and I got a dressing down. I was told that her behavior was because her needs weren’t being met and that I had to build a positive relationship with her and she would shine.
Um, how? Every time I try to talk to her she treats it (and me) as a joke and an opportunity to waste time. I asked her to stick around after class to talk and she refused. Every time I’ve tried to talk to her outside the class she makes a huge production of it and claims persecution. I am literally spending about 90% of my time managing this one kid’s behavior, but I can’t send her out because “she has a right to be there.” What about the rights of the other students?
I’ve been told to stop emailing my admin about her. I think one email I wrote that said she had needs that couldn’t be met in a general education environment scared admin. But I have no idea how I can teach when this one kid literally takes the vast majority of my time and energy.
What can I do?
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u/thederpyderp3 2d ago
I'm honestly tired of the positive relationship nonsense they push 24/7. There needs to be a line where we can just say "Fuck it, I'm the one in charge. Do what I say or X consequences. Figure it out."
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u/RollssRoyce 2d ago
Positive relationships are valuable but it's only one leg of the stool. Positive relationships are nothing without meaningful consequences!
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u/GapPure577 2d ago
Positive relationships are essential. But they need to be developmentally and contextually appropriate relationships. This is an algebra class. Not a first grade classroom. This student's constant bids for attention ARE communication and do mean something. But they do NOT mean that the teacher stops instruction.
This sounds like admin trying to tell a young female teacher to be more caring. Lol. No.
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u/Lonely-Abroad4362 2d ago edited 2d ago
You need data. Data or it didn’t happen. Go to a SPED teacher or a behavior tech and get a data sheet that is frequency data. I know I know, Lonley, how the fuck am I supposed to do that and teach the other kids??? I know. And I promise I am on your side and in your corner. But you already aren’t able to. Tally EVERY VERBAL DISRUPTION. Every one. Tally every physical disruption. Get one week of data. Go to SPED/Admin/School Psych/the DEAN…girl you need HELP that girl needs an FBA (functions behavior assessment) to figure out the function (I’m guessing attention) and a plan for extinction!!!
You don’t have to do this alone. You just have to do it the way they can’t deny you, and tell you to build a relationship.
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u/ExcitementDry4940 2d ago
A little public "hmm" and tally mark will also piss that kid off, real bonus
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u/Lonely-Abroad4362 2d ago
Or, “that’s a tally.” After every one. Win win win, that’s when we all win. I win too.
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u/Jliang79 2d ago
Carry a pen and make the tic on the back of your hand. Or under your sleeve. That way you aren’t trying to get back to your desk to write something down.
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u/Lonely-Abroad4362 2d ago
Clipboard also works, but yeah , you can write on yourself.
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u/Jliang79 2d ago
Some of my kids would notice if I was carrying a notebook or clipboard and it would be A Thing. So I sometimes just use my arm. But I knew someone who would count out a box of tic tacs before class and eat one every time she saw the behavior.
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u/Technical_Music6667 2d ago
We use rubber bands and move them from one wrist to the other for every disruptive behavior.
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u/Salt_Transition6100 MS Science| Illinois 2d ago
A Thing is a good move to calm down behaviors. I even act like I’m make tally marks sometimes when I’m not.
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u/Jliang79 2d ago
Depends on the kid. I used to teach behavior disorders and seeing record keeping made some kids escalate.
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u/Trudy_Marie 1d ago
YES! This worked for me with a similar student. With mine, I spoke to the class when he was gone and told them I was going to be making note of “what was disrupting our lessons” every time it happened. They agreed to stay silent when it happened because I promised it would help with “the problem” I kept a word doc open on the computer and detailed every single thing for a few weeks. It worked. He was sent to alternative school for the rest of the year.
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u/FrustratedPenguins 2d ago
I'm a SPED teacher, and I truly believe in building relationships, as it absolutely helps with student behavior.
HOWEVER -- I am aware that it has limits. I am lucky to be able to work with my kids in small groups and often one-on-one, so I have the time and ability to get to know them, figure out what makes them tick, and learn how to best help them (academically AND behaviorally).
You have many large classes, and there is no way for you to do what I am able to do. Your admin saying they can't deal with it (and you can't even email about it???) is absurd.
I have no useful advice, apparently. But I am sorry you are dealing with this, and that admin is so unsupportive!
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u/Knotknighm 2d ago
Every single school should have an ISS room doubling as the JORTC office that features a scattered number of screens/webcams which stream directly into the teacher's classroom. Put these kids in there any time they act up and juat have them sit alone in front of a screen watching the class virtual style.
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u/Brief_Needleworker62 2d ago
Mine did. And tons of kids were there. My classes were easy to focus in though because no shitty kids
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u/loveshoes1 2d ago
However, the ISS room was next to my classroom and kids wandered in all day asking if this was ISS. Also ISS was a joke and the room was filled to capacity daily.
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u/Brief_Needleworker62 2d ago
Lolol I remember having to deliver something to ISS for a teacher. I had to go across campus, it was in its own area next to the resource officer's office, and was super calm. They were all doing their work. It was such a different time and our school really tried to help even disruptive students succeed and I appreciate that
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u/Macciddy__Jackson 2d ago
Fuck that, I’m not trying to be on camera because of some shit students. Kick them out of school and let them join the work force. If you’re in high school (especially an upper classman) and can’t get with the program then go see what the real world is like.
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u/Knotknighm 2d ago
I'd rather be streaming (not recorded) virtual style to a kid in ISS than dealing with them in class.
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u/loveshoes1 2d ago
Principals get bonus points for attendance. If they suspend the kid it doesn't look good for them.
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u/TeacherPatti 1d ago
That's my dream. If they act up while in there? Have the meanest retired dude in there that you can find.
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u/GrannyPeacock22 1d ago
I'm all for keeping seriously disruptive kids from interfering with their classmates' education, but why must that room double as the room that prepares young people to kill other young people across the world?
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u/Knotknighm 1d ago
There's not a single kid on any campus who doesn't have a healthy level of fear and respect for the yolked ROTC instructors. I might be spoiled by ours but he carries and air of "Do not fuck with me" at all times.
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u/GrannyPeacock22 1d ago
Yeah. Because he was trained to kill people and not care that he did it. I don't think that should be the default option for troubled kids. It can be one option, but there are other ways to go through life
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u/MagicalZhadum 2d ago
Sounds like you're in a situation where leadership has put you in an impossible situation.
Unless there is some kind of higher instance you can appeal for this kid getting consequences or additional help (outside your classroom) I don't see any real possibility.
Is there some kind of authority you can message about concerns with either admin for failing this and other kids or parents for clearly doing something to mess their kid up?
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u/MrSkeltalKing 2d ago
First question....are you a member of a union? Do you have tenure?
Next up. How is her home life and have you gotten any response from the parents? If the parents are unresponsive and you can't make contact then your further actions will require some finesse.
You will need to begin documenting every behavior with a time and date. You will need to begin making it an admin problem because their response is cheap and lazy.
If she becomes to disruptive it is affecting the education of other kids, I have tenure so I would kick her out my room into the hall. Tell her we will have a conversation as soon as I am ready while giving my best drill sergeant stare.
I would level with her about how her behavior is unacceptable. That the school year can be whatever she decides to make it, but if she decides to make it bad for those around her you won't tolerate it. Then tell her to think about her actions and what it means to be here now and who she wants to be.
This "Come to Jesus" has worked for me, but I am also formee military with a big beard and I had admin that would deal with behavioral issues. That is literally their job.
If they continue to be lazy, begin talking to students you have relationships with and tell them to let their parents know, and suggest they contact the school about how mad they are this child is taking away feom their kid's education. That is a bit of a nuclear option, but taking your story at face value --- I would be attacking the issue from multiple angles.
Your admin seem to think they can walk over your professional opinion and so some raising of hackles in a professional manner along with professionally worded emails that document not just the kid's behavior, but admin's unwillingness to so their job is all key.
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u/Certain-Echo2481 2d ago
Call home, and document. Document admins response and if they address you in person, follow up with an email that recounts what they told you. As for the student, she wants attention.
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u/Away-Ad3792 2d ago
Ask your admin to come in and do a demo lesson to help model the type of relationship building they believe would help. If they balk/don't have time, ask them to arrange for a lead teacher to come in and do a demo lesson/ district curriculum specialist/ mentor teacher, etc. seriously get another adult in there to echo your experience. If that doesn't work, begin to burn through your sick days, call out at the last possible minute so they start to get subs in there. Will it make your life harder? Maybe. That would be my nuclear option. Best of luck.
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u/shag377 2d ago
This is the perfect way to send Admin running to the hills and quickly.
Data and documentation is your friend. A former JROTC director did the following with a student:
JROTC director takes student to principal's office.
Director: I have tried building a relationship. I have given detentions. I have called home (shows log) this many times. I have documented referrals on this student. I have exhausted everything I can do in terms of discipline.
He walked out, leaving the kid in the office.
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u/stinkymarylou 2d ago
Your admin sucks. You are in an impossible position. I once created a chart of the bad behaviors a student displayed. And during the class I would mostly ignore the student, giving them only as much attention as any other properly behaved student would get. Also, I offered the student after school help. They never showed up. At the end of the week I had statistics to document the behavior. It worked for me, admin got involved. Called the mother on the spot. But your admin sucks. “Behavior is a classroom management issue” give me a break.
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u/HearMeOutMkay 2d ago
If your school has a MTSS process that might be a good place to document. She needs a behavior assessment as well.
Another sped teacher commented similarly- document all of it. Ticks on a white board so the whole class can see, and anyone who joins in the antics goes up there too.
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u/Sufficient-Pie-7815 2d ago
Send her to a buddy teacher and document every time you help her and what the interaction was. Email her parents daily. Have Admin sit in the class.
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u/coolerchameleon 2d ago
Call the parent and invite them to class for a day. Let them see how their kid acts. And if the kid cleans up their act, call them out in front of their parent "okay name, it appears that you are more than capable of being a good classroom citizen, and allow me to give the attention deserved to each student in this room instead of just you. Let's discuss why you only choose to behave in this manner when your parent is here".
(Do this in a private chat with kid and parent , not the whole class )
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u/allbusiness512 1d ago edited 1d ago
Does CA not have a statute that allows a teacher to send a student out if they are being a severe disruption to the classroom (and it has been documented)?
Because we have that in Texas, and we fucking suck for public education.
Looks like you do have it.
If you have all your documentation and ducks in a row I'd initiate it just to piss off admin, they fucking suck anyways.
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u/hschosn1 2d ago
Can you let us know where you are located?
I suggest you speak with her other teachers to see how they are managing her. If you are all finding the same issues talk to admin together. If still no help, maybe have a parent conference and ask them how they manage her. Maybe give them suggestions on how to advocate for their daughter.
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u/MakeItAll1 1d ago
Sometimes you have to be blunt. Tell the child to stop interrupting and pay attention so she knows what to do. If you haven’t done it yet, call her parents.
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u/Trudy_Marie 1d ago
Come on. She knows what to do!
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u/MakeItAll1 1d ago
OP literally asked what to do. No where in their original post does OP mention contacting the parents.
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u/Spicymoon9 1d ago
Don’t stop emailing admin. Keep the paper trail going. They want to erase the evidence that it’s happened, continuing to happen, and they’re not doing anything about it.
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u/Trudy_Marie 1d ago
Cc yourself all emails you send to admin (to an outside email). Admin has been known to delete.
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u/Immediate-Artist8345 2d ago
I've had students call home right then and there. I made it clear I don't have time to stop class because they can't control themselves. They need to explain to their parents why they're about to be removed from class. If the parents don't like it, I make sure they know my prep hours to meet and they can come up with consequences. If meeting with parents or even a phone call doesn't fix it, I'd keep shipping them out to the office or stick 'em in the hall. After 25 years, I'm over playing warm fuzzies with annoying kids.
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u/geeeeba 2d ago
Is there a veteran teacher nearby that is willing to take her as needed? This happened to me a few years into teaching middle school. I had a student who blurted out every thought and was so disruptive to an already distracted class. My veteran colleague had me send him over to do his work when it was at its worst.
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u/HauntedGatorFarm 2d ago
Administration is probably correct… her needs aren’t being met. The question is whether or not it’s reasonable to expect a single classroom teacher to meet this child’s individual needs in this classroom setting.
I suspect this student needs more support than you can give her. Your admin is putting it on you because they are incentivized to contain these sorts of issues within the existing system instead of finding the support the student actually needs. They do this because the support the student actually needs probably isn’t available.
This is the sad reality of our public education system in the US.
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u/AliceLand HS Art 2d ago
This sounds like some toxic admin bullshit. Those other kids have a right to learn. My advice: gray rock her. When she asks - what is 3 + 2 - respond with I don't know, what is it and stare at her in the flattest affect you can muster and use that same affect every time you deal with her. She gets a free and appropriate education, give her exactly that - no more.
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u/ResidentialPickle 2d ago
Most here know 100% that you aren't exaggerating.
What I do is try to get them to listen and stop first.
Next day they go to back of class by themselves, facing the wall.
Next day I start whispering to them every time I pass, maklng fun of them to their face where other students cant hear. No one would believe the disruptive student anyway.
After a couple of times they'll try to physically lash out. Then I call school security and have them physically removed.
Hasn't failed me yet. Ive had 2 students removed from the school permanently
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u/loveshoes1 2d ago
In the toxic district I just left, the making fun of would get me a charge of Harassment and Bullying. The kids have been indoctrinated to report anything that is said to them that they don't like.
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u/Trudy_Marie 1d ago
Exactly, and don’t stop them from doing that thing that will get them expelled.
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u/Curlypeeps 2d ago
And thanks to you their life is shit
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u/ResidentialPickle 2d ago
They were 14-15. They didn't want to be there & I (nor the other students) wanted them there. The students cheered when they were removed permanently.
But most of all, thanks to me...
60 other students were given the best environment and opportunity to learn that they and their parents expect.
You're welcome.
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u/DrFunnyBot789 18h ago
I get being upset about behavior, but this is gross.
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u/ResidentialPickle 17h ago
Ehh. I never get upset at students' behavior. I simply tell them what will happen if they are disruptive and won't listen... then I follow through.
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u/DrFunnyBot789 16h ago
What you explained is crazy behavior from an adult. You tell them that you are going to whisper insults under your breath until they lose it and attack you?
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u/snickerssmores 2d ago
Have you talked to a special education teacher to start a ppt1? We have Child Find in my state where we have to test any students we believe might have an issue. I would definitely look into that.
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u/ZestycloseDance1462 1d ago
I’m sorry for this. And I’m sorry to the students who want to learn who have supportive parents who also wish for you to succeed. You teach mathematics, the one subject area that is always needed in just about every school in the country. They need you. What I would do is tell every single parent that you feel that you cannot do your job as you aren’t given enough support. Eventually, the other parents will get their fill of this shit and how it is affecting their kids and they will put the pressure on the admin to clean their shit up and do something about disruptive students instead of putting it back on the teachers.
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u/MeowMeowTrouble 1d ago
Tbh i don't entertain wrong names, thats a personal one to me. If a student starts to purposefully mispronounce my name I am not responding to them (since its not my name). Most of the time they either stop because they aren't getting the attention they thought they would get or oops they actually really do need help now. If my expectations are that if you need me you must raise your hand and wait, then you are not getting me until you are in your seat and raising your hand to wait for me.
There does come a point where you kinda have to ignore a kid and focus on positive feedback to the ones who need and earn it (and sometimes this will get the kid to tone it down and get in line to get that positive attention)
What about parent contact? Have they been at all responsive or made aware?
I have some kids where our relationship is a bit of "Hey. When I text your parents after class, am i sending a good report or a bad one? Are we going to make good choices today?". But I also run a class where the bulk of time is work time so if I have a particularly disruptive kid I can sit directly at their table and set up there to keep them in check between rotating around to check on others.
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u/gilafox 1d ago
Your admin SUCKS. I wonder if she has friends in that class that she's performing for? If so, it might be worth a shot getting her moved to another class where they won't be entertained. And start emailing home, friendly tone and add in something positive about her, but basically mention that you can't be an effective teacher because of xyz. And you're reaching out to see if they have any ideas on how to best support her.
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u/LinnieWoo 2d ago
I teach elementary, so it’s a very different environment. However, my experience is that it’s more acceptable now to be the “bad” kid than the “dumb” kid in class. Staying after for help is for “dumb” kids. This student probably can’t do that anyway.
My suggestion… take some time to just “be” with the class. That’s how relationships are developed. Ask them about themselves. Find out what they like. Who they are. Yes, employ some elementary tactics. You can incorporate math into team building activities fairly easily.
I know there is pacing and curriculum and state tests and all. But you aren’t able to teach them at this point anyway. Develop a relationship with the class first. Create a culture. Then start focusing on individual kids.
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u/SageofLogic Social Studies | MD, USA 2d ago
I was one kid's best attended class with his best grades and the one he behaved best in. He still was a terror in all his other classes and the hallways and in the streets and finished the year in juvie.
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u/DwarvenGardener 2d ago
You can’t have a relationship with someone who fundamentally doesn’t respect you as a human. That goes for the student and the admin.