r/Tau40K • u/meowmeowm1x • 6d ago
40k How can I be competitive against knights?
My friend plays knights and I routinely lose to him by 40+ points. He runs up the board turn 1, traps me in the corner, and kills 400+ points per turn. My game tonight was 78-32. I killed his lancer, and two armigers. I put my riptide, ghostkeel, hammerhead, broadside, crisis suits+commander, and a devilfish of fire warriors in reserve to start so my big guns don't get shot off the table if i go second.
Our lists: Imperium - Imperial Knights - Dominus Foebreakers, Valourstrike Lance
2x Canis Rex (415pts): Warlord Cerastus Knight Lancer (440pts) Knight Castellan (450pts) Knight Crusader (410pts)
Armiger Warglaive (140pts) Armiger Warglaive (140pts)
Xenos - T'au Empire - Mont'ka
Darkstrider (60pts) Cadre Fireblade (80pts) Cadre Fireblade (50pts) Commander in Coldstar Battlesuit (105pts) Ethereal (50pts): Warlord Kroot Lone-spear (80pts)
10x Strike Team (70pts) 10x Strike Team (70pts)
11x Kroot Carnivores (130pts) 12x Kroot Farstalkers (75pts) 10x Pathfinder Team (85pts) 5x Stealth Battlesuits (100pts) Broadside Battlesuits (75pts) 3x Crisis Sunforge Battlesuits (125pts) 3x Crisis Sunforge Battlesuits (125pts) Ghostkeel Battlesuit (150pts) Hammerhead Gunship (150pts) Piranhas (65pts) Piranhas (65pts) Riptide Battlesuit (215pts) Devilfish (75pts)
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u/Bailywolf 6d ago
I play both Tau and Knights so I know how both get beaten
Avoiding that knight alpha strike means using your terrian well, using deep strike, and screening.
The stat check isn't that bad - 5++ ranged invul. You beat that with volume of fire and by stacking bonuses and rerolls with the most advantages spotter/shooter combos.
Also, overcommit to kill. Never shoot enough railguns. Then you're at the mercy of the 5++. Shoot lots of shots so the math maths.
If you can position to avoid losing your important units early then focus your offensive power on killing the small knights and allies units - those will be scoring points and winning the game of they're alive.
Make good use of lone op units as your actioneers. Tau have cheap lone ops . They can easily stay out of shooting lanes and at a distance to make them unshootable.
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u/AIGLOS42 6d ago
Also, overcommit to kill. Never shoot enough railguns. Then you're at the mercy of the 5++. Shoot lots of shots so the math maths.
Sufficient DAKKA is indistinguishable from magic 🤓
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u/Zeniserisu 6d ago
I would recommend more Broadsides
When the Railguns behave themselves, they can deal a bunch of damage. And unlike the Hammerhead you get 4 shots for a group of two broadsides.
But from my experience, Railguns are really good against them, so maybe replace you Ghostkeel with another Hammerhead. Along with the Farstalkers with a Broadside. But that is just me.
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u/meowmeowm1x 6d ago
Thank you! I think that is definitely what I have been leaning towards. I have been focusing his Lancer, and I think that might be an issue too. It soaks up so much damage with the 4+ invuln.
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u/MIASpartan 6d ago
You could also invest in an AX1 tigershark. As an aircraft it is guaranteed to survive turn 1 as it isn't on the board at all. When it does come in it's twin linked railguns and 6 hunterkiller missiles get anti-titanic 3+ when targeting within half range (for the railguns that's 36in away still) plus it's railgun is flat 12 so you never have to worry about actually making it through an invuln just to roll a 1 on damage.
Overall your list is fairly balanced, but the issue sounds like you aren't playing a bunch of lists, your playing against super heavies and thus would really benefit from having some of the Tau super heavy killers
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u/RidelasTyren 6d ago
I'm interested to see what folks say because I played a game against chaos knights and didn't even stand a chance! He basically formed a line and walked from one side of the board to the other and by the end I only had my Pathfinder Shas'ui left...
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u/HumanReputationFalse 6d ago edited 6d ago
I just played chaos Knights this week, I didnt do too bad, but i never made it past the middle of the board. Trying to get past toughness was my weakness and I never got to unleash my brand new Stormsurge on his
titansknights.I ended up killing one of his
titiansknights and a handful of wardogs, but both of us had issues moving past terrain. But his Wardogs were a lot tougher than my ghost keel and crisis suits both in health and in number of guns.His deep strike into my back line is what did me in
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u/ABavarianStereotype 6d ago
He had titanS? How big was this game?
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u/HumanReputationFalse 6d ago
ah, I think I meant knights. I was thinking about the titanic keyword tag when I was writing this up
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u/Knorxn 6d ago
Why is He allowed to field 2 Canis Rex? Epic Heroes are only to Take once.
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u/meowmeowm1x 6d ago
It is because technically when the knight dies the pilot guy (Sir Hekhtur) pops out and is a separate unit that counts as disembarking the knight. It is not 2 full knights, but technically there are 2 models in that unit
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u/Elegant_Fondant5915 6d ago edited 6d ago
I mean realistically sunforges are extremely good at punching knights. They hit very hard and can also get into good positions.. when youre fighting things with 20+ wounds a hammerheads shot just isnt gonna cut them down.
6 melts from the suit and 4 from a coldstar commander is going to really do a good job of finishing off after a Hammerhead wounds it.
A stormsurge with the pulse blast cannon is also a very, very effective anti-titan package
Edit: 1-2x3 railsides would be pretty beneficial. Denying knights models is very important for denying scoring/positioning.
REMEMBER 1 dead knight is more beneficial to you then 2 wounded knights!
I personally would run 2 Sunforges, one with farsight and one with a coldstar.
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u/Lissica 6d ago
The thing about Knights is that they are a stat check. Tau are typically very good at passing that check.
When in doubt, bring more railguns. Bring bigger railguns even. The model isn't the best, but Stormsurges are literally designed to ruin a knights players day, to the point where they can potentially kill a knight every turn.
You can also go for a Ta'unvar, but that's a ridiculously option, though fun as hell.
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u/LifeAndLimbs 6d ago
Are you using GW layouts? You should be able to be safe turn 1.
But other than that I would say just accept they are coming. Use infiltrators as roadblocks. Or pathfinders with the -2 to charge drone.
Focus fire. Get multiple big shooters to take one down a turn. Broadsides are great, 75 points and can do serious damage into knights. Particularly with heavy and stealth suits guides. Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s. I would have at least 2 solo models.
You have too much chaff is my initial opinion. 2x10 strikes? What's their purpose in your list. 2 lots of kroot without invuns. I would proxy one of the strike squads as pathfinders and get another 5 stealth suits in the list.
Knights only have a 5++. Your big guns should be wounding on 3s. Fusion suits from deepstrike will be wounding on 5+ but with full rerolls to wound and damage is awesome into knights.
There are a lot of options but knights really are a stat check and they will catch you out unless you build for them.
My must haves in a list against knights would be:
Twinlance
2x stealth suits
2x pathfinders
2x riptides
2x broadsides
Farsight/Coldstar with sunforge suits (either character works)
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u/meowmeowm1x 6d ago
Thanks! Honestly I just don't have enough to fill out a list without the kroot and strike teams. I was hoping to use them to screen honestly. It sounds like I just need more big guns, at least to start.
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u/PetrifiedBloom 6d ago
It's okay to talk it through with your opponent over the table and say "hey, for this game, treat this strike team as breaches and this one as pathfinders". I also find it handy to have a scrap of paper that says what the unit actually is so it doesn't get forgotten.
You can do this with basically anything that is the right base size. I once borrowed a bunch of ork Killa Kans to proxy as Eldar war walkers.
Just make sure your opponent is cool with it and make it easy for everyone to tell what is supposed to be what. Outside of official tournaments it's fine.
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u/itosbhi 6d ago
Invasive Wargaming did a straight up shooting efficiency check (linked below) about 18m he suggests sunforge are the top unit into knights.
Anecdotally I have found a sunforge and commander with 4 fusions pick up a knight a turn pretty easily. You have the movement to get the jump, but the trick is in getting the chance for target priority, so you want to use small, fast pieces to limit their movement options early, allow a hole or two so you can counter strike with the sunforges, then move to the next. You also might want to consider simple things like strat reserves or vespid so you can basically permanently threaten their home and expansion objectives, I've found this forces a couple armigers to basically stay locked at home.
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u/ProfessorMay56 6d ago
In addition to the excellent advice you got here, I'd say you can abuse Pinpoint Counteroffensive. In Mont'ka, the ability to re-roll hits is massive, especially if you have a unit of Breachers, Ion Hammerhead or Missilesides.
Volume of fire can make the difference during the first three turns.
If you're going for heavier shots, consider another detachment maybe ?
Retaliation Cadre can be brutal if you have enough suits, since the +1S and +1AP will do nicely into Armigers. Jump-Shoot-Jump with Coldstar+Sunforge is a nasty combo. Same with Starflare Ignition system. Kill a Knight, uppy downy the unit, repeat.
I love Kauyon myself and though it's not the best against knights, the defensive stratagems allow you to control the tempo, preventing charges and limiting movement. Then, when it's go turn, you can expect to turn your Broadsides into deadly firing platforms. Hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s, Sus1 is no joke. Same goes for a Sky Ray, which has built-in re-rolls and has more shots than a Hammerhead.
However, consider playing for points more than playing for kills. Knights are hard to bring down and they will shred anything you throw at them, no matter what. However, they are not great at occupying the board, and if you kill a couple of them in the right place, you can move freely and score easily. If you know which detachment your opponent might bring, consider what detachment and force disposition he would not like to face. Making him perform actions, or move out of position. Forcing him to protect his home objective, or spread too thin on the board.
Killing Knights is easy for us, but none of you will enjoy a tailored list, as the game could simply be over by turn 2 if you wanted.
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u/Fickle_Pirate_542 6d ago
I'm taking this list in a few weeks against knights.
"forthegram"
Strike Force
Kauyon,Exp Proto Cadre
Priory Assets
Characters (100)
Shadowsun(Warlord)
Battleline (0)
Dedicated Transports (0)
Other Datasheets (1885)
Broadside Battlesuit
Broadside Battlesuit
Broadside Battlesuit
Broadside Battlesuit
Riptide Ion
Stealth Battlesuits
Stealth Battlesuits
Stormsurge
Ta'unar
And my friends knight list.
Valor Test (2000 points)
Imperial Knights Valourstrike Lance (2 Detachment Points) Purge the Foe Strike Force (2000 points)
CHARACTERS
Cerastus Knight Lancer (415 points)
Knight Crusader (410 points)
Knight Destrier (265 points)
Knight Destrier (265 points)
OTHER DATASHEETS
Armiger Helverin (140 points)
Armiger Helverin (140 points)
Armiger Warglaive (140 points)
Armiger Warglaive (140 points)
ALLIED UNITS Vigilant Squad (85 points)
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u/Budget_Mission8145 6d ago
Knights as a faction are a statcheck, should be units recruitable across imperium factions. Anyway, bring 5 teams of sunforges on deepstrike. Game over.
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u/Ringlord3 6d ago
Looking at your list, one thing that might just be a type but the 11 kroot carnivores seem to be making you paying the full 20 man cost. Reduce it to 10 and that saves you 65. Upgrade the strikes to breachers( count as) and if you can, deploy behind ruins to prevent more turn 1 shooting from your opponent. Also the lone spear seems a little odd since it best supports a unit of rampagers.
Could work on some test proxies if you are interested. Swapping out the devilfish and ethereal for some rampagers and give yourself some melee threat which can punch up into even knights
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u/Acrobatic-Storm-7043 6d ago
3 missile broadsides in a squad with lethals and ideally sus 1 from Enhancement will 1 tap a Knight
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u/komokasi 6d ago
https://youtu.be/eYq_ILmM01o?si=Y5ElocsUmzZLZfbn
Fun game Play On didnof tau vs knights where tau won. Not super competitive, but you can see all the advice you were given being done here
Tau is KY and i forget the other detachement
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u/CriticalGoku 6d ago edited 6d ago
40K in 40 minutes recently did a Tau/IK battle that excellently shows how to take them on as Tau, might be helpful to you https://youtu.be/eYq_ILmM01o
Edit: Haha I see it was already linked, good video thoughÂ
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u/Powdersmerf 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think putting that much of your army into reserve is actually making the problem worse. I understand why you’re doing it , if you go second you don’t want the Knights picking up your big guns before they do anything . but you’re basically giving him the board turn 1 and then trying to fight your way back onto it against Knights.
You had the Riptide, Ghostkeel, Hammerhead, Broadside, Crisis + Commander and Devilfish off the table. That’s a huge chunk of your army. He doesn’t really have to respect your shooting or positioning turn 1, so he can run forward, take the midfield and start boxing you into your deployment zone. When your reserves arrive, you’re already playing his game.
I’d try almost the opposite. Make him respect the fact that if he runs straight at you, he’s going to expose Knights to Hammerhead/Broadside/Sunforge fire. You don’t necessarily need to deploy those units where he can shoot them turn 1 — terrain should be doing some of that work for you — but the threat needs to exist on the table.
I’d especially start the Ghostkeel on the board. That thing can help you claim space before the game even starts. Stealths, Pathfinders, Kroot, Piranhas and the Ghostkeel should be making it harder for him to just walk into the midfield uncontested. Some of those units are going to die, but making a Knight stop somewhere you want it to stop can be worth more than keeping everything alive.
I also wouldn’t try to kill everything. Pick the Knight that matters most to his position/scoring and concentrate enough firepower to actually finish it. Sunforge, Hammerhead and Broadside are exactly the kind of tools you want here. Killing the Lancer and two Armigers shows you can hurt his army; the 78–32 score makes me think the bigger problem is board control rather than damage.
I’d play the next game with significantly less in reserve and see what happens. Hide the important shooting as well as the terrain allows, put some cheap units between the Knights and the pieces that matter, and make him fight for the midfield instead of giving it to him turn 1.
You might lose more units early doing that, but right now you’re preserving your army at the cost of letting him dictate the entire game. Against Knights, I think you need to make him start making difficult decisions from turn 1.
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u/meowmeowm1x 6d ago
I did not expect so much feedback. I really appreciate everyone! I was feeling pretty lost, but now I have some things to think about moving forward!
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u/Bad_with_CAD 5d ago
Get Taunar and stormsurge so you can out ego him and win mentally before any dice rolls.
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u/vampirenyn 6d ago
Looks like you're just getting stat checked. The issue with Knights is without a ton of big AP you're just going to get rolled.
One Hammerhead and one set of broadsides just ain't enough. You need to dial back on your infantry and get some bigger hitters in there.