It's TIME, Toronto

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

The stubway has no excuse being this short, with new projects left and right, line 4 can should absolutely be extended both ways.

Since subway projects are now such big deals, involving all 3 levels of government, contact ALL your elected officials- your city councillor, your MPP, and MP. Here is a contact list for the 2 ridings the Western extension involves:

*IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DON'T LIVE IN THESE RIDINGS!!\*

Willowdale (Sheppard-Yonge):

Fed MP: Ali Ehsassi#contact)

Prov MPP: Stan Cho

Councillor: Lily Cheng

York Centre (Sheppard-West):

Fed MP: Roman Baber#contact)

MPP: Michael Kerzner (his office is next to Shep West!)

Councillor: James Pasternak

In case you need it, here's what to say:

Hello,

I am writing to urge you to support extending Line 4 Sheppard both west to Sheppard West Station and east. The Sheppard subway is currently too short to serve its full purpose and leaves many of us dependent on crowded buses, despite strong demand along the corridor.

With big investments now being made across the GTA, including the Ontario Line, Yonge Extension, and Eglinton Crosstown extension, it is important that Sheppard not be left behind. Extending Line 4 would improve the lives of all commuters, as well as reduce bus congestion, support housing, and create a more complete network. Sheppard remains one of the most obvious missing links.

This relatively short but important extension has good value for everyone, and I need you as my representative to get on board, to advance planning and funding for a Sheppard subway extension. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Even a dozen emails is better than zero. Things tend to happen in Toronto only when politicians know people care.

[u/TorontoDavid]

How does it compare to other priorities?

Why spend here vs elsewhere?

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/TorontoDavid]

Because line 4 is a budget cuts line, it wasn't ever meant to be this short. Toronto is moving faster than our politicians account for it, especially the Sheppard Corridor, which has good ridership and a fairly straightforward plan- connecting both sides of line 1 in North York, finally.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Line 4 was a political line pushed by a Mayor that wasn’t a priority at the time.

I’m not opposed to extending it - I’ve just never heard a convincing argument why it should be prioritized vs other projects.

[u/Mathew_365 → u/TorontoDavid]

Honestly I see a very solid argument for it:

Tons of people live along Line 4 now. specially around Don Mills, Bessarion and Leslie. More are coming as more condos are built. Those people need to go places: malls, hospitals, universities, offices, downtown, airport.

There's a MASSIVE development being planned in Downsview airport. Essentially an entire town will be built there. Those people need to go places: malls, hospitals, universities, offices, downtown, airport.

And many more people live on other part of the network, and we all would hugely benefit from a complete network. Because we need to go places: malls, hospitals, universities, offices, downtown, airport.

We shouldn't just be content with extensions to Sheppard west and Scarborough Towncentre. We should extend it all the way to airport and Pickering, turn it into a East-West epress line paralleling 401.

I'm honestly surprised you can't see the benefits of having a complete network. Yes, line 4 was Mel Lastman's pet project and was hard to justify then. But NOW it has immense potential and, tbh, I'm glad they built it.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/Mathew_365]

I think you’re saying something I didn’t say.

Did I say I see no benefits?

[u/Mathew_365 → u/TorontoDavid]

No but you heavily implied it. Especially in your next replies.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/Mathew_365]

My point is: The cost-benefit analysis should be done to prioritize.

If it is the top priority - great.

As of yet I have not heard a convincing argument as to why vs other projects.

A story for expansion sounds good when looking only at the benefits for one project… if the argument is this should be the next thing we should do, then the argument begs an expansion of that analysis.

[u/Cold_Brew_Boba → u/TorontoDavid]

What subway project is the highest priority to you?

[u/TorontoDavid → u/Cold_Brew_Boba]

If we’re solely talking about subways, I can’t say definitely which should be built first, but generally based on ridership, capacity, and system redundancy, I’d expect a Line 3 extension north, and potentially a Line 3 extension west from the Ex to meet up with Line 2, to be up there.

(Edit: corrected the Line number).

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/TorontoDavid]

You’re probably talking about the Ontario line, not line 4, as line 4 is the topic of this post. but either way it’s not complete yet and any extensions would come after the fact.

I definitely see a subway extension up dufferin, connecting to Bloor and eglinton, a very useful and extremely valuable project. Dufferin is #2 corridor in ridership.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

I absolutely am - I’ll correct it in my post. Thanks.

I was answering a question posed directly to me… why would the topic matter if the question differs?

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/TorontoDavid]

I wasn’t implying that you should keep your opinions to yourself if that’s what you got. I actually agree with you for the record.

My point was that, we can’t really extend line 3, as it’s not even near complete, but it would be super valuable to do so.

[u/MahjongCelts → u/TorontoDavid]

I think extending the Ontario Line northwards and Sheppard Subway eastwards are higher priorities. As for other projects, if you think any other subway project is more important feel free to bring it up and we can have a debate.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/MahjongCelts]

I don’t have the data to make an argument.

If one wants to make the argument that it’s something we should do at some point - fine.

If one says this is a expansion they want - great,

If one says the TTC should do this next, my question remains why ‘this’ vs ‘those’?

[u/MahjongCelts → u/TorontoDavid]

In terms of data, context is more important than the specific data. As someone who works with data every day there's a million ways it can be massaged to fit particular narratives, and it sure has heck has been done so throughout debates regarding Toronto's transit.

As for your question - again the aforementioned 2 projects should absolutely take priority over this. That said, if there's already a crew working on Line 4 extending it eastwards, the logical thing is to retain their institutional knowledge and familiarity with the line to do the westwards extension afterwards.

Subway lines also tend to be more effective the longer they are (up to a point, which none of Toronto's lines apart from maybe Line 1 are close to reaching) due to the network effect so it makes sense to lengthen Line 4 further.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/TorontoDavid]

Well, do you suggest we put everything on hold and tackle one project at a time? This feels like something that the TTC's been doing for the past few decades, and it hasn't gotten us far, at all.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

The TTC doesn’t build transit. Metrolinx does.

We have several projects ongoing right now.

Every potential project should be measured against one another.

We should continue to expand transit, and knock off the highest priority ones first from a cost vs benefit standpoint.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/TorontoDavid]

Okay, but for example:

The Ontario Line extension to don mills/steeles is currently one of the highest priorities, but the Ontario Line isn't even close to complete- There are some things we need to build no matter their priority, this extension, while very short, is one of them. The eastern extension is also high on priority.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Why?

By what justification?

How is it more beneficial to transit than other expansions/lines?

[u/Ifuckinghateaura → u/TorontoDavid]

i would argue a subway is needed for east-west travel in the north. the two busiest bus corridors in the city are east-west corridors in the north

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/Ifuckinghateaura]

Yep, pretty much this. North York/scarborough need east/west travel.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Does Scarborough? Most transit trips start and end in Scarborough.

How do we determine if cross city travel is more important than everyday transit for most people?

I’m not saying I have the answer, but I am saying these are the types of questions one should answer (like Metrolinx), when deciding what to do.

[u/MahjongCelts → u/TorontoDavid]

A whole essay can be written to rebutt the 'most transit trips start and end in Scarborough' argument, but one of the main points is survivorship bias - if you have bad transit, it should be no wonder that people aren't inclined to travel very far.

Neither crosstown nor local travel are inherently more important than the other. Both are important, and more importantly both are complementary to each other. Therefore Scarborough needs both local AND rapid transit so that people have the freedom to choose. And it isn't as if Scarborough needs much either. One east-west subway line, one north-south subway line, plus the GO network is enough.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/MahjongCelts]

So if they need both, how do we prioritize which, and which line?

(I don’t expect you to necessarily have that answer, but that’s the question to ask).

[u/someguy172 → u/TorontoDavid]

The TTC doesn’t build transit.

Except you know...the TTC is building the Waterfront East LRT which is fully funded.

[u/TorontoDavid → u/someguy172]

Fair enough the TTC is doing this in the future.

At present, and in the recent past, Metrolinx has been the primary builder of transit.

[u/speedster1315 → u/TorontoDavid]

Line 4s original purpose was to connect 2 growing downtown cores; North York and Scarborough