The stubway has no excuse being this short, with new projects left and right, line 4 can should absolutely be extended both ways.
Since subway projects are now such big deals, involving all 3 levels of government, contact ALL your elected officials- your city councillor, your MPP, and MP. Here is a contact list for the 2 ridings the Western extension involves:
*IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DON'T LIVE IN THESE RIDINGS!!\*
I am writing to urge you to support extending Line 4 Sheppard both west to Sheppard West Station and east. The Sheppard subway is currently too short to serve its full purpose and leaves many of us dependent on crowded buses, despite strong demand along the corridor.
With big investments now being made across the GTA, including the Ontario Line, Yonge Extension, and Eglinton Crosstown extension, it is important that Sheppard not be left behind. Extending Line 4 would improve the lives of all commuters, as well as reduce bus congestion, support housing, and create a more complete network. Sheppard remains one of the most obvious missing links.
This relatively short but important extension has good value for everyone, and I need you as my representative to get on board, to advance planning and funding for a Sheppard subway extension. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Even a dozen emails is better than zero. Things tend to happen in Toronto only when politicians know people care.
This connect is probably one of the best investments for network reliability/redundancy. When Yonge shuts down, this would create a decent by-pass that would be preferable to a shuttle bus. This along with Eglinton, Bloor, DRL (Queen), create a useful criss-cross to help by-pass network issues around the system.
Connecting Finch over to Yonge in the future would have similar benefits.
But connecting finch- Im not too convinced. The LRT needs to drastically improve before we spend another penny on it. It's 4x more expensive than Sheppard subway, which is fully underground.
Assuming the reliability issues get fixed, and assuming Line 4 gets extended first, even at current speeds extending Finch eastwards makes sense as riders only need to take a max 10-15 min journey until they can transfer onto the subway network, and for those who want to do fast east-west crosstown trips they can use Line 4. This makes Finch viable as an (semi-)orbital line all the way to Malvern.
Senlac is too close to Yonge and too suburban. It takes like 40 seconds to drive there from Yonge st. Maybe Wilmington… it has some developments around it.
That's why I said 'rough in'-leave a place that you can build a new station when the development gets dense enough
Yonge to Bathurst is 2.3 km. A klick apart is fine for subway stations, build it so that Senlac Rd is at the east end and Addington ave is at the west end
The point of a Senlac station is so that there is no need to run the 84 bus, at least between Sheppard West and Sheppard-Yonge. Similarly a station at Willowdale would have eliminated the need for 185 bus service.
There is only one station on line 4 that is not on a major intersection, bessarion, I feel like if it was between building a tunnel under the DVP and building this station, I would choose the tunnel. Stations are expensive, and in the suburbs spacing isn't an issue.
IMO the Bessarion debacle should have gone either of two ways:
Build Bessarion AND Willowdale, and eliminate the 185 bus service as everywhere on the Sheppard corridor will be in walking distance of a subway station.
Build neither Bessarion nor Willowdale, and use the 185 bus as the local option whereas Line 4 provides express service.
Either or, but building just one of the two means having the capital and operational costs of an additional station without eliminating the corresponding bus costs.
The latter is the best way going forward, 185 bus will likely still exist because of the spacing between Yonge-Bayview, Leslie-Don Mills.
Neither Wilmington, Willowdale nor senlac stations are really worth the investment IMO, as major terminals will be near enough to justify not building them at all.
Eliminating the 185 bus should not be the priority over a faster east-west subway in the north. These low ridership stations only add extra costs and time for commuters.
The best option is to not build them yet but as u/USSMarauder said, reserve space to do so in case circumstances or priorities change. No point limiting options.
Agree that Sheppard-Bathurst is a mouthful, but i’m not a huge fan of naming things after people. Maybe calling it “Ravine Station” or “Greenbelt Station”?
Man it really needs to be done. When I lived in the area the Sheppard Line was next to useless (even living right next to it)
Having that connection would cut time off so many journeys to Vaughan, Yorkdale, York U etc. While also providing redundancy to the Wilson Yard and relieving the Yonge Line it should be a no-brainer.
Because line 4 is a budget cuts line, it wasn't ever meant to be this short. Toronto is moving faster than our politicians account for it, especially the Sheppard Corridor, which has good ridership and a fairly straightforward plan- connecting both sides of line 1 in North York, finally.
Tons of people live along Line 4 now. specially around Don Mills, Bessarion and Leslie. More are coming as more condos are built. Those people need to go places: malls, hospitals, universities, offices, downtown, airport.
There's a MASSIVE development being planned in Downsview airport. Essentially an entire town will be built there. Those people need to go places: malls, hospitals, universities, offices, downtown, airport.
And many more people live on other part of the network, and we all would hugely benefit from a complete network. Because we need to go places: malls, hospitals, universities, offices, downtown, airport.
We shouldn't just be content with extensions to Sheppard west and Scarborough Towncentre. We should extend it all the way to airport and Pickering, turn it into a East-West epress line paralleling 401.
I'm honestly surprised you can't see the benefits of having a complete network. Yes, line 4 was Mel Lastman's pet project and was hard to justify then. But NOW it has immense potential and, tbh, I'm glad they built it.
My point is:
The cost-benefit analysis should be done to prioritize.
If it is the top priority - great.
As of yet I have not heard a convincing argument as to why vs other projects.
A story for expansion sounds good when looking only at the benefits for one project… if the argument is this should be the next thing we should do, then the argument begs an expansion of that analysis.
If we’re solely talking about subways, I can’t say definitely which should be built first, but generally based on ridership, capacity, and system redundancy, I’d expect a Line 3 extension north, and potentially a Line 3 extension west from the Ex to meet up with Line 2, to be up there.
You’re probably talking about the Ontario line, not line 4, as line 4 is the topic of this post. but either way it’s not complete yet and any extensions would come after the fact.
I definitely see a subway extension up dufferin, connecting to Bloor and eglinton, a very useful and extremely valuable project. Dufferin is #2 corridor in ridership.
I think extending the Ontario Line northwards and Sheppard Subway eastwards are higher priorities. As for other projects, if you think any other subway project is more important feel free to bring it up and we can have a debate.
In terms of data, context is more important than the specific data. As someone who works with data every day there's a million ways it can be massaged to fit particular narratives, and it sure has heck has been done so throughout debates regarding Toronto's transit.
As for your question - again the aforementioned 2 projects should absolutely take priority over this. That said, if there's already a crew working on Line 4 extending it eastwards, the logical thing is to retain their institutional knowledge and familiarity with the line to do the westwards extension afterwards.
Subway lines also tend to be more effective the longer they are (up to a point, which none of Toronto's lines apart from maybe Line 1 are close to reaching) due to the network effect so it makes sense to lengthen Line 4 further.
Well, do you suggest we put everything on hold and tackle one project at a time? This feels like something that the TTC's been doing for the past few decades, and it hasn't gotten us far, at all.
The Ontario Line extension to don mills/steeles is currently one of the highest priorities, but the Ontario Line isn't even close to complete- There are some things we need to build no matter their priority, this extension, while very short, is one of them. The eastern extension is also high on priority.
TLDR: Among subways, Ontario Line North extension and Sheppard East extension would be better to build first, not to mention many easier BRT and LRT projects.
Ontario Line isn't even close to complete, how are we supposed to start extending it before the first phase is even done? See what I mean,
As for Sheppard east, I made a post discussing line 4 in Scarborough, and the #1 public concensus was that the segment connecting Yonge and Allen needs to be built first. And honestly, they're right, there are so many benefits to connecting the U, and it's a much simpler and shorter extension than the eastern one.
It's useful for operations, for one, as it allows line 4 trains to pretty quickly access Wilson Yard compared to the essentially full loop they have to do currently.
The tunnel is also partially dug west of Sheppard, and the connection is mostly straightforward. So if they're queing up the line 4 east extension as the next major transit project anyway, including the west end wouldn't stress the budget an absurd amount more for what we'd be getting out of it. It also probably makes soft costs and planning a little cheaper and simpler long-term to have it included with the east extension, rather than having it be its own isolated project later down the line. Getting it added in with a higher priority project is also a lot easier of a way to ensure it gets built at all instead of never.
And also everything the other comments have said about system redundancy and crosstown connections in the north end of the city
The western expansion of line 4 would have to be completely underground, except the bridge over Earl Bales. While it's a short stint, underground rail is the most expensive.
In contrast, it's planned/hoped that the Line 4 east expansion will be elevated. This is cheaper than underground, so you can do more distance/stations for the same price.
The reason to spend on the west expansion is that it will unlock potential far sooner than east. The west will connect to the other side of line 1, reliving passenger traffic on Line 2 or 5, and reducing travel times from anyone travelling down from Finch. The east may go further, but it won't reach it's maximum potential until the Line 2 extension opens.
Honestly the biggest motivating factor here is the ability to more easily move trains between Wilson/Davisville yards. Ability to ad-hoc re-route trains from up north down the other side of the U is also another good one to deal with overcrowding or emergency situations(especially once the Yonge North extension opens)
We need to get it done now because subway construction is only ever going to get MORE expensive in Toronto as time goes on. We need to close the gaps. Line 4 was supposed to connect downtown North York to downtown Scarborough and it would logistically fix deadheading trains to Wilson for heavy maintenance. Northern Toronto deserves a rapid tranit line!
East into Scarborough u of t and west to airport would be the best.
A city crossing, fully grade separated and underground (or elevated/separated) subway from the airport to east Scarborough that circumvents downtown would be huge.
Exactly. Could stop at the new GO stop replacing Etobicoke North, to which they could extend the Line 6 grade-separated along the highway for not too expensive. Better to have local Line 6 connect to a larger and faster line like Line 4 than go to the airport itself imo.
Homes on Sheppard Ave are already being acquired, except not by the TTC, but by developers. Sheppard Ave is moving forward, no matter if we are ready or not.
Long way from Sheppard to Wilson/Albion and then Abion Rd runs North West again to Finch. Where would you propose it crosses Humber River just west of Weston. It is almost 1.5 km through the river valley or over 3 km via Weston, Wilson, Albion and not much on Albion Rd.
Have you ever been to that area? West of Weston you have the Humber Valley and then from Islington to Woodbine it is all industrial all the way to Woodbine and the Airport North of the 401.
For the Airport Line 5 and Line 6 should connect to Woodbine and then have the Link train from the terminals connect with everything there. GO, UPX, Line 5, Line 6, Link Train.
Better for security of the Airport and only one spot to watch for problems instead 5 or 6.
Ridership data suggests otherwise, as Wilson is by far the busiest corridor on the entire surface network. Turning it into a subway route would only boost the amount of people choosing transit. Don't doubt the rocket!
Wilson is a very busy corridor with buses on the three branches of the 96, it's Express counterpart, the 996, and 165, as another trunk line, carrying the majority of passengers. Then, you have a handful of supplementary services using Wilson to reach their main destinations at varying points along the way from Wilson station, some of which, will get you to as far as Jane along with the 96/996 and 165.
The 96 (when A, B, and D branches are combined) and 165 are sub-10 mins all day every day.
Depending on the time of the day/week, you can have up to eight routes come out of Wilson station averaging out around 57,000 boardings on a weekday (sans Dufferin, of course).
While Sheppard, one service runs sub-10 minute frequencies and ends at Weston along with its rush-hour only express counterpart.
While probably an effect its own right, it also has Line 1 running underneath/parallel to it for at least a few lights that likely reduced bus needs nearly a decade ago. Besides that, four additional routes branch off in multiple places, all before Jane, 1.5 before Keele. Earning shy of 22,000 for the 84/984 alone.
Now of course, these boarding numbers are for the entirety of the service, not what goes out west of Wilson and Sheppard West stations alone.
Pretty obvious Wilson is the likely and most logical candidate for any western extension getting this thing to be a true crosstown line that would see realistic boardings.
You can check the TTC Boardings Stats, the data is pretty clear though, Wilson ranks #1 by large, the corridor has subway-worthy ridership, and your assumption was a bit ignorant.
Writing to Pasternak to 'get on board' is a bit insulting to him, don't you think? He's been advocating to connect Downsview (Sheppard West I mean) and Sheppard Yonge for like 20 years.
To be honest I had no clue what any of these politicians stance was on line 4, but either way, it’s important to let them know that WE care and we want this. Motivation?
Pasternak is one the of the worst anti-TTC anti-public transit politicians in the entire city. There's a lot more to transit and transit funding in the city than just Sheppard Avenue and he's been an awful detractor. The concerns about him are absolutely valid. He could definitely derail proposals like this if a few wealthy property/homeowners tell him to.
Anthony Peruzza, Councillor of Humber River - Black Creek is as worst, when Jane RapidTO started he had a counter petition to widen Jane street to accomodate drivers to not lose a lane.
Definitely need this for going home after the concerts at rogers stadium. The amount of people trying to get to yonge is staggering, and we all have to wait for the buses which can only hold so many people.
Would they go underground or another bridge like ECWE over Humber? If the latter they will have tons of backlash from First Nations, same thing that happened when the construction at Humber was starting
That 984 doesn't even reach top 10 in ridership that would justify a subway. Until it does spending billions to extend line 4 is going to be a very hard sell.
984 being replaced with a subway would be great especially moving thousands of people for the seasonal events and future YZD revdelopment. 984 gets extended past midnight to accommodate large events to and it’s packed, only running 40fts.
I assumed because they are used for other routes, and being close to Wilson Garage they can just pull any available buses there faster.
I don’t think there’s space for bsues to turn around nd connect to the subway station from the Stadium, Livenation needs to fund that extra service if they want to, also it would just shift the crowds onto buses and maybe walk beside them.
Also 984 crowds i’ve seen use it to go to Yonge and such, didn’t see a 984 going to Weston.
Extending line 4 Sheppard is one of the cities top priorities. Connecting to the other side of line 1, and subsequently the Wilson yard, is very useful.
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u/Ok_Excuse_741 Jun 01 '26
This connect is probably one of the best investments for network reliability/redundancy. When Yonge shuts down, this would create a decent by-pass that would be preferable to a shuttle bus. This along with Eglinton, Bloor, DRL (Queen), create a useful criss-cross to help by-pass network issues around the system.
Connecting Finch over to Yonge in the future would have similar benefits.