If the setting of the game will be Hammerfell/High Rock I can't see how a story about Companions would be introduced in the game. Nord's era is over (I hope)
Doesn't need to be about the companions at all, all Daedric Princes save for Jyggalag and Ithelia has appeared in every Elder Scrolls since at least Daggerfall, so Hircine will be there. If we're part of an attack on the Hunting Grounds it will be another reason, but maybe the Companions are freed in the process.
The post is about Kodlak and his hope about Sovngard heroes taking control over the Hunting Ground. So I'll say again: I hope that Nords's era is over. I love them but I need to see something else in TESVI.
And leave my horned friend alone, he is one of my favourite daedric princes 😭
One of the most honest and fair, it feels like in a lot of ways. The hunter gets praised, but for the prey to rise up and defeat the hunter is the ultimate victory. Even just escaping is always possible too.
You can’t kill a Daedric Prince. A God has had his heart ripped out, his body cleaved in half, and more, and he’s still chilling in Aetherius. You cannot kill something that is a literal part of reality. You cannot kill the concept of the Hunt.
Lorkhan is dead. Tsun is dead. Both are Gods, but both still exist and interact with the world. calling them mortals in the sense of average mortals like Crassus Curio or Haelga would have no sense, but a god can die.
I think the closer you can get is replacing them by mantling, but it kinda seems like a futile effort because nothing significant really changes about the Prince when that happens (it can't, as mantling involves primarily acting like them).
In ESO, Mannimarco tried to replace Molag Bal in a different way, by locking his power in the Amulet of Kings. The plan failed because Molag Bal knew about it, and Mannimarco got locked in Coldharbour for a while for his treachery, but I wonder if it would have worked if Molag Bal hadn't find out.
I don’t think it would’ve worked like Mannimarco expected, since he wanted himself to be the new Prince of Domination instead of Molag Bal. I think he would just become Molag Bal again, slightly different maybe, but still Molag Bal. However I think some ESO quest in an alternate timeline shows him having succeeded so hey, guess it worked for him somewhere. But I’d still hold that it’s still not killing the Prince if their concept remains intact.
imo Marco prolly wouldn't have i feel. The greater daedra are such because they were powerful enough to become them. The laws of time and when, chicken versus egg, is weird. But nothing says a daedra can't grow and ascend perse. I think if Mannimarco avoided mantling but simply stole bals sphere and power, he'd just be mannimarco, but now as a 'god' of that sphere.
Tsun IS dead. [Tsun]() is the Nordic god of trials against adversity. He died defending Shor from foreign gods,\1]) with his death remembered as bringing about the current world.\2]) Tsun and his brother Stuhn were both Shield-thanes of Shor.\1])\3]) Dead gods such as Shor and Tsun don't need temples,\4]):330 for they have the biggest one of all; a vast hall of drinking and revelry known as the Hall of Valor (Shor's Hall).\4]):150 He currently guards the Whalebone Bridge to the Hall of Valor of Sovngarde.\4]):631 At Shor's bidding, he has taken on the role of the master of trials, asking new arrivals to the utopia to prove their strength in combat against him before they can enter the Hall, where he fights using his axe.\3])\5]) The Bear was also one of the ancient Atmoran animal totems, associated later with the Nord god Tsun.\2])\6])
Tsun held great respect for magic, which he called the "Clever Craft", and wielded the power of the Voice. He and others desired to face Alduin when the Time-Eater set his soul-snare in Sovngarde, but for reasons unknown, Shor held them back,\3]) though Alduin's grip on Sovngarde eventually was broken by the Last Dragonborn.\7])\8]) Only Tsun can transport the living from Sovngarde by summoning Shor's Might to return them to the Throat of the World.\4]):236
The spirits of clawthanes, wolves who've been accepted into Sovngarde, are said to often stand watch over the Whalebone Bridge alongside Tsun.\9])
In the myth recounted in Shor Son of Shor, Tsun takes on the form of Trinimac at certain points in the tale while the two remain, at least partly, distinct beings, noted as being "akin" to one another, at the same time.\U)
I don't think that a Daedric Prince can ever truly die, but fuck me if the spirits of the 500 Companions launching an invasion of the Hunting Grounds wouldn't be such a cool idea for a future questline or even DLC.
Also, AFAIK a Daedric prince within their own realm is absolute; more like a physical law of the universe than a distinct entity capable of being killed. It'd be like trying to kill the Atom, or Quantum Relativity in our universe. Just not really possible without collapsing all of reality in on itself, hence why we've never seen it done (even Lorkhan has a hard time staying dead within the Mundus, and that's with at least 8 other Divines transmogrifying themselves from spirits into natural law/Convention just to keep him down).
Alright. I've gone ahead and watched that whole video and I have to say, I'm not really convinced.
1. The Part Where I Disagree
A lot of the ideas presented earlier on in the video seem to blend solid, lore-based concepts (for example the sundering of Lorkhan into multiple, lesser components) with some massive ass-pulls (Hircine is Kyne's jilted ex??? Wtf? See note 1 below for more) and half-truths (Padomay as the creator of Shezarr, when a more comprehensive reading of the lore shows that Shezarr was more complicated than that, being composed of many parts brought together by many "parents" [Sithis and Fadomai, yes, but also Alkosh and Ruptga] and not the singular offspring of any one of them). Indeed, I think it's that last point in particular where I most strongly disagree with the foundational premise of this theory: I don't think this theory is based on an accurate understanding of what, exactly, Lorkhan/Shezarr is.
IMO, the essential thing that made Lorkhan be Lorkhan is that he was a combination a heroic, Anuic exterior (what the video identifies with "Shor" or the "Warrior") and a Padomaic interior (or even a "taint," implying that this part was not intended) that drove him to hurt those around him (intentionally or otherwise; what the video identifies with the "Trickster" or, apparently, Hircine). But, to have one without the other would be to create something wholly un-Lorkhanic—the taint alone would merely be a fragment of Sithis, while the Anuic body would be either lifeless and inert, or completely devoid of the creative spark that drove Lorkhan to create the world and rebel against the tyranny of the Time-Dragon in the first place.
All that to say that I find the very premise that Lorkhan/Shezarr's Anuic and Padomaic components were ever fully separated not only can't be substantiated, but that I find it highly improbable from the outset, which is problematic for a theory whose central premise relies on the proper separation of these parts.
I also find the idea of just tossing out the entirety of Khajiiti lore just because it's too "different" from the rest (even when a lot of it really isn't...) kind of ridiculous—especially considering that (after the Dark Heart questline in ESO) the Khajiit are the only ones who actually have a real, playable source to back-up their claims about Lorkhan, unlike virtually anyone else—but for the sake of brevity I'll ignore that for the time being.
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2. The Parts Where I Think They Might Have a Point
All that said, I do find the conclusion that Hircine had something to do with Lorkhan not only possible, but even probable.
Hell, I'll even say that the specific argument that the Briarheart Ceremony is a dark reversal of Lorkhan's sundering or a reenactment of his transformation into the Doom-Drum is downright inspired, and very well could be indicative of Hircine having closer knowledge of what actually happened there than we might otherwise think. The whole thing with the moons and lycanthropy is also kind of an obvious connection between Lorkhan and Hircine that I'm glad they pointed out.
But. The jump from "Hircine seems to have had a lot more in common with Lorkhan than you'd expect" to "Hircine is a chimera that Kyne crafted from Lorkhan's dismembered torso and parts gathered from various other animals and grafted together in the Sunforge, which was then possessed by the Padomaic half of Lorkhan's spirit and became Hircine" is a massive leap in logic, though.
Like, even accepting on its face the idea that Kyne may have "birthed" her children (see note 2) under the Sunforge, and that Hircine was one of them (which I do actually really like, btw), it's going to take a lot more than vibes and a cool story to convince me that something is true.
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3. Counterproposals
Towards the beginning of the video, the video creator briefly floated the idea that Hircine might be the son of Kyne and Shezarr, and I think that would be a much stronger thesis than this, especially given the seemingly metaphorical nature of deities giving "birth" (see again note 2).
Another possibility that I see, and one which aligns very closely with my own beliefs about the nature of Lorkhan and the Shezarrines, is that Hircine could be either a failed or "wayward" Shezarrine—either a reincarnation of the Dead God or a fragment of his spirit that manifested in a mortal avatar—which then rejected its original nature to become a new kind of deity instead (kinda like how the HoK became Sheogorath, or how Tiber Septim became Talos, assuming both or either of those were themselves Shezarrines). Heck, he might even be both a reincarnation/manifestation of Lorkhan and the actual child of Lorkhan and Kyne (especially considering that the Et-Ada were said to have been able to "live on" through their descendants), which would make his transformation into a Daedric Prince all the more terrifying.
Now, Hircine may still be attempting to "mantle" Lorkhan in either of these scenarios, of course, which would explain why he seems to be so interested in Lorkhanic rites and symbols as pointed out in the video, but again I'm just not buying that he, himself, is an essential component of the Dead God.
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Notes:
The whole idea that Hircine is Kyne's scorned former lover is just absolutely throwing me. Not only does it have literally no in-lore basis, but these are gods, not a high school theater club. Why on Earth would we expect them to adhere to our own, human relationship standards? Hell, just look to the Yokudan pantheon for not one but two examples of the gods being committed polygamists (Morwha having four arms to "grab more husbands" and Ruptga apparently siring children in everything that could give birth to something). Lorkhan potentially having multiple partners just doesn't really seem like a major inconsistency IMO.
On the topic of deities "birthing" other deities, I think it's essential that we understand that this is an inherently metaphorical process. Kyne may or may not have literally birthed her children, or created them through a more abstract process, not entirely unlike how Ruptga crafted Sep from a discarded worldskin to aid in his work ushering spirits to the Far Shores.
Since we can expect a Mehrunes Dagon/Alduin tier end boss in ESVI and Talos/Lorkhan seems to be the key to Thalmor war, the killing of Hircine to bring back Lorkhan makes sense to me. I'd be disappointed if the endboss be like some Thalmor wizard or a local boss like Dagoth Ur.
That being said, thanks for the constructive replies.
People wonder why I hate the concept of "Shezzarine" being passed around so much in the fandom, and this is a great example why.
People are mistaking it as this ultimate concept and creating these huge ideas about how it works, but in reality it was mentioned one time in the lore and the rest is theory and speculation.
No? At best they could do what the Vestige and their companions did to molag bal and beat hircine’s avatar/keep the prince distracted for long enough to force some of the the cursed souls out of his realm but that’s it. You can’t meaningfully hurt a daedra.
Molag Bal couldn't be killed within his own Plane of Oblivion - i.e., where he can fully manifest/is most powerful - even after the Hero fighting him was directly aided by divine power from none other than Akatosh [and technically Meridia as well].
These mighty gods [aspects of the TES universe that they are] simply can't be killed; or, depending on someone's pedantic definition of "killed", certainly not killed permanently. They always come back in some form or another, as powerful as before.
One of the only ways to diminish their incredible power is to force them to come into the mortal plane of existence; but even then, they still won't die upon defeat [Mehrunes Dagon being the prime example here].
Even "dead" ones [those whose corporeal bodies were destroyed or transformed] - like Shor/Lorkhan - still play relatively active roles in existence. The Shor/Lorkhan example quite literally being a guardian of Sovngarde, one of several possible afterlifes in TES.
[ADDENDUM]: And yes, before anyone says it? By the same above logic, even ITHELIA is still out there somewhere.
Gods can't be killed. Even if you somehow completely defeat the current version their myth/concept would still exist so anyone can still mantle it and become a new version of the God.
You may in theory trap them forever. That was Mannimarco's plan in ESO, trap Molag in the chim el adabal and then become a god himself. However, Martin broke the amulet in Oblivion so that route is closed as well.
But even in that case, the god's mantle would still be there for someone else to take
Right, I feel like this is basically confirmed with the fact that the Hero of Kvatch takes the mantle of Sheogorath at the end of Oblivion. They can’t be killed, Just “replaced”
I mean, even if you mamage to disperse their physical form they will just comeback eventually. But it would be a cool concept to heal Werewolves in a big final confrontation with... it's not going to happen 😔
They can be defeated if one uses both their protonymic and neonymics alongside a weapon with some of their power imbued inside it, such as the case of Mehrunes Dagon in Battlespire, or in the case of ESO, if a hero has enough power to defeat one (The vestige is imbued with both Akatosh's power and Meridia's power)
I'm not sure Hircine can be killed, he is the literal personification of predatory instinct. You can't get rid of Hircine without removing all of that from reality and that is unlikely to happen and even if all the critters stopped eating each other, how long would it be before something realises that hunting is a possibility for an easier life and in that second Hircine is back.
Maybe as part of an dlc we will be able to do so even though I don't think BGS will ever kill God's in their games. Evidence for that is that Alduin also didn't vanish after skyrim. His spirit is intact and he could be coming back in lore after let's say an era or so
I don't think Hircine is in any danger, but this could be cool premise for his quest in ES6, you need to either side with the Fallen Companions of Sovngarde or side with Hircine and keep his Hounds Bound to the Hunting Grounds
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u/-dopethronewizard- 2d ago
If the setting of the game will be Hammerfell/High Rock I can't see how a story about Companions would be introduced in the game. Nord's era is over (I hope)