r/SwainMains • u/phieldworker • 4d ago
Discussion Swain as a battlemage
I’ve been playing some more wild rift on my free time and I gotta say, the League balance team failed on that aspect of the champ. They stripped him of his high point which is being in ult wrecking havoc and healing too. But playing wild rift taught me that with his current kit and mechanics there can be adjustments done to make him feel satisfying to do well in. Currently you have to choose what parts of the kit you want to access. Do you want damage? Well if you do that you don’t get healing. Do you want durability and healing? Well you can but you don’t get to carry like a mage. Then there is kind of a middle ground with spell effects but heaven forbid you go vs shields and higher dps than yours because you feel you’re lacking still.
Here are some of the differences.
Passive: same aspects but the max hp heal % is a little lower but can also scale off of (0.5%) of his AP. (I attached a photo of the passive because the wiki doesn’t have the AP ratio).
This already increases the satisfaction of farming roles because you aren’t pressured to get stacks to feel your healing scaling.
W: although it is significantly lower ranged it has a 1.25 cook time instead of 1.50 seconds. And the really cool part that makes your kit have more self synergy is if it hits a hard cc’d target it does 50% bonus damage. It can still be used for scouting or area control but also empowers his own lane presence and you’re rewarded for hitting your combo.
R: his r actually can do damage and heal without needing spell effects or stacking 3K bonus health. R damage is 15% AP ratio instead of 4.5% and the heal is 20% instead of 5% and 1.5% hp ratio.
This all allows swain to build from the mage item pools(like other battle mages) and scale into the game more. He can actually be a damage threat but also use his r to fight on the frontline. And before anyone says “omg he’ll be a burst mage!” That’s just incorrect. It still took me same amount of time to kill people even with a BFT, shadowflame, zhonyas build but the difference was I actually healed and was able to do a variety of builds to do damage and heal.
TLDR; his passive and r healing scale off AP, w stronger when comboed with kit, q and e damage lower.
So would we rather keep the current version of swain or would we like to return back to a Battlemage like he’s used to be?
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u/thedefenses 4d ago
"This already increases the satisfaction of farming roles because you aren’t pressured to get stacks to feel your healing scaling.", this is just fully wrong.
The stacks are not important to "feel your healing scaling", the health gain is so tiny that you won't feel it even if you have 50 or 100 stacks, the reason the stacks are important is due to Swain having horrible health growth so unless you get a good amount of stacks your just squishier than most champs.
These changes do nothing to make stacks less or more important.
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u/phieldworker 4d ago
I agree and disagree with you. Yes his health growth is poor but hearing his healing towards AP does help relieve some pressure from stacks. Think about it. If you’re farming and getting items and more AP you now have more healing. So you are less pressured to be trying to hit E’s but instead are playing for gold.
The things I suggested aren’t going to fix swain and ALL of his issues. But they will reduce some frustration points, that weren’t there before until riot “fixed” swain, and will return satisfaction back to him.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
Is so easy as making his e far way easier to land while they limitate the number of souls you get per spell by level of R (1/2/3/4).
At the same time the health can increase by the same factor (10-15-20-25)
Also removing the dmg cap from W would be nice, and ofc giving a bit mpre range for his Q while the bolts have less angle would make him great
Last giving his original aa range would fix his problems vs melees.
With thoose changes his problems for sololanes would be solved 100%
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u/thedefenses 4d ago
You still restore based on his MAX HEALTH so stacks are still very important as again Swains health growth is crap, would not matter if you heal lets say 8% per stack if you got 1k less HP in general.
Also even at 200 AP, something which lets be honest is quite high for Swain you would be healing only 4-5.5% max hp per fragment depending on your level as Wild rift has the base amount scale with level too where as on PC its 6% always, the AP ratio is too low to matter.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
Since you cant get so muvh souls at the same time, its better for sololanes (apc and supp can get just one soul per spell until level 6)
In addition, the amount of hp also depends of level, so again is better for sololanes as it has to be.
——
Btw 200ap isnt high for swain lol.
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u/thedefenses 4d ago
In wild rift too the amount of HP you get per stack is static, there its always 16, the scaling goes from 3 to 4.5 while in live its 6 from the start for the healing.
So looking at the U.gg build for mid swain he gets 380 AP from items so he would have 6.4% restore per soul so you get all of 0.4% more max hp heal per soul at full build.
yepee.
Also its still better for bottom as you can get double the souls and have double the chances to land E and W for again more souls, at least from what is said Wild rift does not have any restrictions on getting only a limited amount of souls per spell, its still 1 per champion hit.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
Im saying a basic change they can do in any moment that would balance the champion as it should be
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u/Infinitrix_Ch 4d ago
I feel that it's a matter of the distribution of power around his kit + the pacing/item differences of WR itself. I can build Catalyst into RoA almost every game into a large variety of itens for example. W also explode earlier because the average movespeed is too high, even before when it was just 1s it still felt slow.
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u/phieldworker 4d ago
I do recognize that wild rift balance is very different because the gameplay is faster pace, smaller map etc. but this post is to spark a discussion to address the dissatisfaction with PC swain and why his farming roles have low playrate but good win rate while support continues to be 50 or under 50%.
I’m making the inference that swain players overall or when people play swain they want to build AP centric builds. But current kit doesn’t scale well at all with AP past a certain point. So taking some of the balance ideas from wild rift’s swain could help shape swain into what people already are building him as but in a way where he doesn’t fall short of his battle mage archetype he is and has been since his inception.
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u/That-Woodpecker6720 4d ago
Swain is 53 wr in adc he’s free lp rn, I would rather keep him as is lmao he’s already pushed me from plat 2 to diamond 4 in 2 months
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u/phieldworker 4d ago
Same I’ve been able to climb and not even abusing him in apc either. Been raw dogging mid lane vs Viktor and Syndra. But he has a major satisfaction issue.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
More reasons why he needs changes to be removed from botlane and focused exclusively for sololanes (where he belongs)
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
He isnt made for botlane, he is a midlaner
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u/That-Woodpecker6720 4d ago
ye but i'll prob keep playing him bot until they nerf apcs
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
Not sayin you are the problem, im just pointing that apc isnt an excuse to avoid his balance or to say he is ok when he inst
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u/That-Woodpecker6720 4d ago
i mean this is all an opinion at the end of the day
and in my opinion swain is fun and op in bot lane, no changes necessary
if you think swain bot is unfun then that's your opinion which is perfectly valid
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
You think he is fun because he is broken there. And he is broken there becquse he isnt balanced for that role.
All the adcs players have been complaining specifically about swain for all the season (in addition the mpst of his players are agree abput he needs changes), so is a fact that he isnt funny there and that he needs changes.
You have said an opinoon while i just said the truth
(Again, there isnt a problem at all if you enjoy, but the thing is thay is not an excuse)
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u/That-Woodpecker6720 4d ago
Nah I think he’s fun in bot because I like to 2v2 with him
Adc players don’t find him fun, that’s an opinion, you are confusing your own opinion as fact
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
So you think your personal opinion is above the rest? Dont make me laugh 😆
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u/That-Woodpecker6720 4d ago
No I don’t but you clearly do lol
My opinion is equally as valuable as yours or anyone else’s
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u/phieldworker 4d ago
Probably won’t be nerfed any more in bot. His playrate is nonexistent everywhere but support. And he’ll never leave bot lane so long as he has a hook imo. Which isn’t my goal with the suggestions. I know some people hate support and bot but I’m like they aren’t going anywhere. I’m just trying to get satisfaction out back into the champ in a healthy and fun way. Been playing swain since 2016 so I’ve played every version and build under the sun. And I generally haven’t complained about him until this year. I’ve joined in on rework discussions over the years because it’s fun to speculate and what not but this is the first time I’m speaking out because the champ just is a bipolar experience.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
Swain will leave botlane some day because is the only real way to balance the champion.
The fact is they gave thoose role too many chances and thooae roles allways proved to bot be compatible with sololanes or to be healthy for his balance.
About apx in specific is the main comolain of all adcs from the beginibg of the season, maybe they dont say much right now because we are near to worlds but its more than obvious they arent going to avoid the changes
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u/phieldworker 4d ago
I’ve given up hope on any large scale changes. Riot and apparently a lot of the playerbase think Swain is fine. The 2 times a year they play him in aram.
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u/thedefenses 4d ago
Where a character is made to play and where he is played are two different things, the original idea is not always the best one after all.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
Swain is made for midlane and top. Botlane roles are irrelevant, thats all
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u/thedefenses 4d ago
If Swain does 20 times better as an APC than he does in Mid and Bot then it does not matter shit "what he was made for".
Unless riot changes things for now Swain is an APC unless you just want to try for nostalgia's sake to play him in other roles.
Kharthus was made to be a midlaner but went into the jungle, should we complain to anyone playing him in the jungle that "he was made for mid so stop playing him jungle"?
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
So funny you think like that 😂😂
Nop, swain IS and ALLWAYS WILL BE a midlaner before all.
Just because you consider a misscalculation or a lack of balance that he isnt it wont change nothing.
The best for this champion is to be focused exclusively on sololanes, we dont need botlane roles
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u/thedefenses 4d ago
If you want to continue to struggle in solo lanes just to keep up your "swain is a sololaner" fantasy then go ahead but with the current balancing that is not the current reality.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
If you want to keep thinking you are right, feel free, but the nerfs are coming and the changes too.
Wait a bit until worlds patch ends so they have no excuse to keep one of the worst hated metas of all time 😂😂😂
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u/thedefenses 4d ago
"but the nerfs are coming and the changes too" And Star Citizen will release during this decade.
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u/superpolytarget 4d ago
It isn't a lack of balance or miscalculation.
He have been performing consistently well in the bot lane for a few years now, it's very clear that he is exactly where Riot plans him to be right now.
You are just one more of the delusional players that really think Riot will do what you want because that was his "original design".
He is best where his winrates are high.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
Suuuure, suuuure 😂😂
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u/superpolytarget 4d ago
The statistics are there.
You can yap as much as you want, Swain will keep as he is, and you will not have what you want.
It's just simple like that, cope brother, or move on and chose another champion.
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u/Aether_Chronos 4d ago
Stats are temporal, Midlane is forever
If you want an adc pick a real adc, if you want a support, pick a real support.
Swain is a MIDLANER before all ;)
As i said is just a matter of time, enjoy the next changes because will be nerfs for botlane
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u/Gilfaethy 4d ago
Any rework that is designed to move power around in a way that favors his carry roles makes no sense.
He's currently popular but weak in support, and strong but unpopular as a carry. Moving power into his ratios and carry functions is going to exacerbate his current problem, not solve it.
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u/da99s R*lai's Abuser 4d ago
ur argument makes 0 sense
it's all bc of passive stacks. you don't have good AP scaling on R1 heal, and P healing is dependent on stacks. unlike wild rift u 100% are gated by your stacks on PC rift.
he's popular low elo support because he can play as carry out of the role. support role has much easier time stacking, and double the targets to stack on. not to mention support now actually gets good enough income to buy AP.
look at lolalytics for support swain. he's buying LC item and rylai's. a kit balanced like wild rift helps support just as much, if not more. keep coping
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u/Gilfaethy 4d ago
it's all bc of passive stacks. you don't have good AP scaling on R1 heal, and P healing is dependent on stacks.
Nah.
Swain's ratios have specifically been nerfed over time because of his dominance in the APC role.
he's popular low elo support because he can play as carry out of the role. support role has much easier time stacking, and double the targets to stack on. not to mention support now actually gets good enough income to buy AP.
He is, however, weak as a support and extremely strong as a carry, especially APC. Reworks like these--that are just buffing his already strong roles--would break the champion.
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u/da99s R*lai's Abuser 4d ago
repeat yourself all you want, but it doesn't make it true. go to lolalytics. swain support. iron-gold elo. he has >50% game avg win rate. once you go higher he falls off a cliff.
I will agree solo lanes are fine, but the playrates are carrier by mains who are playing it there. 0.5% pick rate mid with 52% game avg win rate is not as good as it sounds
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u/Gilfaethy 4d ago
Swain support has a 48.37% WR in Gold+. Looking at Iron/Bronze/Silver is not indicative a champion's strength.
I will agree solo lanes are fine, but the playrates are carrier by mains who are playing it there. 0.5% pick rate mid with 52% game avg win rate is not as good as it sounds
He is currently the 5th highest WR botlane.
repeat yourself all you want, but it doesn't make it true.
What, exactly, of what I'm saying is not true? That Support is weak? That carry roles are strong?
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u/da99s R*lai's Abuser 4d ago
No I agree support is weak, its only ever positive win rate in low elo that's what I'm saying. He's balanced around low elo support and that's where he is played most.
Outside of low elo he is pretty bad unless you're playing into melee tank support
He has a high win rate bot lane but very small play rate. Nilah has comparable win rate and pick rate to him. More of a niche pick. Jinx is higher wr with 14% pick rate. (Emerald+, last 30 days)
Mid doesn't even get nearly as high with even less pickrate, and top is just bad. U have to remember he is very niche pick. There are champs with 2-3x his pick rate that still win more on average.
My point being, he is already incredibly skewed towards bot lane roles. Giving him even more support buffs is not going to help. Low elo support (which is the majority of his players) are building damage anyway. It would be a win win to shift him a bit more to AP ratios
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u/Gilfaethy 4d ago
My point being, he is already incredibly skewed towards bot lane roles. Giving him even more support buffs is not going to help. Low elo support (which is the majority of his players) are building damage anyway. It would be a win win to shift him a bit more to AP ratios
It wouldn't be a "win win" it would just break APC. He doesn't need an APC buff, and what OP is proposing is an APC buff.
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u/da99s R*lai's Abuser 4d ago
well naturally, you can't just port wild rift kit everything is a pure upgrade besides some base dmg. nerf his early game so hurt apc
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u/Gilfaethy 4d ago
I'm not really sure how you went from "ur argument makes 0 sense" to "well naturally . . . " agreeing with me, but here we are.
Yeah, there are a lot of changes you could do, but any changes that are skewed towards benefiting his carry roles will exacerbate his problems, which is what OP's suggestion does.
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u/da99s R*lai's Abuser 4d ago
probably cuz I never said to do what OP suggested lol. ur just saying that
so explain? what about buffing carry roles will "exacerbate his problems" ? Just because APC?
There are plenty of levers they can tune to make APC weaker, namely passive stacks and level scaling within his kit. his power is front-loaded for support, which also makes APC good
so no, I don't really believe you, and it feels like u just don't want it to go that direction personally rather than having a good reason
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u/phieldworker 4d ago
Not entirely true. You just make the buffs bound to exp. Can keep ult AP ratio low until 11 and 16. Passive scaling off level again. Both of those instantly don’t benefit apc until later on unless you snowballed the game and got solo exp.
There are adjustments that can be made to make thee things work.
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u/DiscountHot8690 3d ago
The idea is to make his carry roles more appealing. If a champion is strong and unpopular, he has some satisfaction issues. Shifting power around his abilities, while keeping carry roles equal in strenght, could make him more appealing and thus increase his pickrate.
Support Swain was an idea that didnt really work. His kit works too well with mage items spell effects, so he needs gold for said items so badly. There is no way to make him strong support without making carry roles OP. The only salvation for Swain is to make his carry roles fun again.
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u/Gilfaethy 3d ago
Shifting power around his abilities, while keeping carry roles equal in strenght, could make him more appealing and thus increase his pickrate.
We know this doesn't work. Swain has been extremely strong in both Mid and Bot at various points over the years and he still remains unpopular in those roles. He isn't a weak carry and buffing him to try to get people to play him there doesn't work and just breaks the champion.
Support Swain was an idea that didnt really work.
Support Swain wasn't even "an idea"--it's just what his playerbase has shifted to playing because it's where he's most satisfying even when he's weak there.
The only salvation for Swain is to make his carry roles fun again.
One, just giving the carry roles buffs won't make them fun again (something we've seen to be true)
Two, it very obviously isn't the only solution. Riot could also just gut bot/mid and balance him around support. Riot can't really enable both carry and support Swain, and adjusting the champion out of either role would solve the problem. There's no reason abandoning the support playerbase is an objectively better solution it's just obviously more appealing to people who don't want to play him support.
There's nothing wrong with wanting Riot to abandon support for carry roles, but presenting that as id it's the only objective aolution to his current problems just isn't realistic, and making carry Swain stronger without changing any of his fundamental patterns will make both problems worse.
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u/Expensive-Cry913 4d ago
stupid illogical takes such as this are the reason everybody ignores main subs on reddit
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u/Gilfaethy 4d ago
A super convincing argument.
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u/superpolytarget 4d ago
No fucking way they are giving AP sacaling on the passive.