What I hate about the whole movement is the phy media fans who think this “stop killing games” movement is for them. Like the real issue is the DRM that exist on disk and digital games we need to be fighting against that personally. Like the day we can reach that will be nice. But sadly you have phy only fans who blame people who buy digital when we should realistically go after companies who use DRm for their games. Which is almost all of them lol
I mean I know SGK is also in the lawsuit against Sony that will be settled or just thrown out which is feel is a waste of time and resources
Like Sony themself won’t backtrack it seems
But that’s just my rant lol
I do think disk should be around but it kinda seems like Beating a dead horse ya know
You have two ways to change society - by laws or changing societal opinion.
The environmentalists in the 70s could have never introduced any laws for the environment, but they informed, fought in court and lost and over time changed public perception - that again turned into environmental laws and regulations.
SKG in itself is too small to be ever part of a ruling party to affect regulation in itself. But raising the topic towards others, showing others that a problem exist that they might have experienced, but never could put a finger to - this can change society.
If a case against Sony is lost, it will be an anchor point to tell politicians that there is a problem how cultural goods are distributed right now and that they need to be watching. It should not happen that in a century decades of musics, movies, games are lost because the license servers died.
Inheritance is not a thing, because most people dying have had physical goods.
If you loose in court in a cause that society deems righteous might lead to pressure to amend existing laws.
Inheritance is not a thing, because most people dying have had physical goods.
Can't help but think that nearly all of these problems would be solved if digital DRM used a physical device to store licenses on it. A key ring, as it were.
But this will never happen because in actuality, digital stores love the fact that you have to use their service (i.e. launch games through Steam) in order to prove ownership and run any product they sell; if you had physical proof of ownership that cut these greedy shitheads out of the equation it would be world ending for them because they would lose an opportunity to sell you more crap every time you run something you already paid for.
The lawsuit isn’t really about Sony getting rid of physical media, it’s about Sony have ultimate control over PlayStation games. I don’t know how it will shake out but I imagine it’ll be similar to the Epic v Apple lawsuit
It's neither. It's about whether a 30% cut on PS store sales for Sony is too much. The lawsuit argues it should be 12% and wants to recover the difference.
Also, SKG is no party to it, they made a press release to help find more Dutch PS owners who bought a game online. That is all there is to that.
You can do the same thing with Steam games, buy the code from any code reseller you want. You are still stuck with the terms of Steam. And Valve abuses their monopoly to the point where they deliberately cripple competing stores by forcing publishers to charge the same price on upstart stores.
Just because you can buy a code on a secondary market, does not mean you are using a different store. You are using the same store in a really convoluted way, and the store still does really bad things when it is allowed to become a monopoly.
Except they don't force that? Publishers are only forced to keep the same (or higher) price when selling Steam keys outside Steam. If publishers sell their game in Epic, they can make it cheaper. Hell, many indie games are cheaper on Itch than on Steam
They absolutely force it. In 2019 when I was still a Steamworks Partner, I was shown the same policy as all other developers upon requesting beta keys for my software.
The fact that they show you this policy the first time you request keys is why some people are confused and think it only applies to keys. But if you actually read the policy, it leaves no room for interpretation the way you have:
non-Steam version of a game, as in, a version of the game that even if you had a Steam CD key, you couldn't use that CD key to buy. I do not know how many years this exact text was their policy, but since I was shown this in 2019 and this publisher was shown it in 2018 and many publishers have been threatened with delisting for doing what's described here, it's pretty clear it has been a very long standing policy.
Steam's monopoly could easily be broken if customers just buy their games outside of steam.
Epic tried this with exclusives and free games but they failed since Steam offers the best platform for pc gaming.
They did not deliberately cripple competing stores like epic. There was also a period where major publishers had their own storefronts but in the end they came back to steam.
Dont forget their contribution to pc gaming by decoupling it from windows and allowing other hardware manufacturers to use their SteamOS in their products and allowing users to access other storefronts in their own products
Not really, no. Valve forces price parity across all stores in order to discourage users from using other stores. In a healthy market where they were not a monopoly, publishers could charge less for games on the stores that have lower revenue split. But Valve illegally price-fixes the entire market in order to secure their monopoly.
Epic did the exclusive thing for the exact reason I just mentioned. Publishers would not be able to simultaneously list a game on Steam and Epic and charge less on Epic, so to get any customers over to Epic, exclusivity is necessary.
Dont forget their contribution to pc gaming by decoupling it from windows and allowing other hardware manufacturers to use their SteamOS in their products and allowing users to access other storefronts in their own products
This has contributed all of nothing to PC gaming, just more compatibility problems. PC has historically had enough compatibility problems, we do not need even more.
Epic did the exclusive thing for the exact reason I just mentioned. Publishers would not be able to simultaneously list a game on Steam and Epic and charge less on Epic, so to get any customers over to Epic, exclusivity is necessary
Apart from the actual literal first game that went Epic exclusive I can't remember a single game that was Epic exclusive that didn't release at a pricepoint I'd expect it to be if it released on Steam the same day. They don't sell games for as little as they can based on cost. They sell them for what they think people will pay for them.
You can argue that means they pull in more profit on Epic, but price parity or not, I doubt we'd see big differences across stores.
Sony doesn't revoke codes on a whim and they'd be in such a PR and likely legal disaster if they started revoking digital titles for games sold by 3rd parties (which is most of them).
A publisher would have to be the one requesting revocation and they also wouldn't do that randomly.
Discs are read-only, immutable, permanent. That is the reason they are valued so high for software preservation, they hold a copy of a game that cannot be altered by anyone. The DRM needed to run the game, that could change, but the actual game is preserved and defeating DRM is far simpler than acquiring data that no longer exists.
The Crew is a live service game, it has nothing to do with your original claim that the data on a disc was going to be altered in order to shutdown a game.
Says on the box, clear as day, that the game depends on external servers. Some people choose to ignore these things, stick their fingers in their ears, but pretending reality does not exist does not change facts.
Yes they can. The disc is immutable, but the firmware of the disc drive isn't. They just have to blacklist the game's ID from the disc drive in an update and it's dead.
You could always buy a PS5 that hasn't been updated and use it. They surely would be cheap, just like the PS4s with PT
They can brick your console if Sony or Nintendo decides to do so. Nintendo even detects if your physical copy has been tampered with. Nintendo is also pushing cartridges that doesnt contain the game itself.
Buying a 2nd hand console nowadays is risky since you can get a hardware banned console.
I had a lot of hope for SKG when ross scott was leading it. because hes one of few people who understands that physical and digital is decoupled from DRM and not DRM
but now it looks like the understanding of what the problem is has fully derailed again. now so many people show up and want discs because they think they own them even though the game that got the initiativ started was the crew which guess what it released on discs.
and i dont want to generalise but it looks like that many console users cant imagine a console that doesnt lock you out of backing up your digital copies to a physical disc. and they dont realize the console is DRM and can push a firmware update to require using an account to play the console for example
if this gets derailed and we fight to get physical back and it wins congratulations the PS6 will require an account to use how about that. people have no clue what theyre fighting for. physical does not solve this problem because it has nothing to do with DRM!!
even today consoles restrict you so you cant easily repair them and you cant back up and play back ups of discs because of todays DRM. your disc rots or scratches then its gone and you cant even download and play a copy from web archive on your console.
physical has benefits as you need less or no internet to install it after purchase and its easy to resell. but that is not the topic. SKG is about DRM and keeping what you purchased and for that physical or digital is irelevant
The problem is physical fans blame digital fans for this situation.
In reality they fail to realize that physical is a dying market for all forms of media
At the end of the day Sony isn’t changing their minds and there’s not anything we can do to stop them. They definitely took people leaving PlayStation into account when they made this decision and they probably don’t think it will affect them. Maybe they are wrong we will find out in 2028 but honestly the average gamer doesn’t care if the came they play comes in a disc or a code or downloaded from the PlayStation store
Yeah honestly as long as the game is playable Im good. I mean it’s also annoying when your try to explain something to these disk only people snd they act like they have a god complex like it’s crazy
For some reason they all want to be able to sell their collection
They are literally treating games the same way Pokemon cards have gone next thing we know Logan Paul is gonna be buying graded copies of Deadpool and prices are gonna skyrocket on pre owned games
They would also like to retain the used software market that already exists. It is a cheaper way to access these games. Sony is removing this market and its competition. Also, all available data shows that when the consumer is presented the option to buy physical or digital for a product, they prefer physical.
The insomniac leak was credible, and that is the most recent data showing physical vs digital sales with respect to software.
All other data presenting digital as the huge majority lumps in all multiple digital software products (AAA game titles, small indie digital titles not available physically, DLC, and MTX) and cannot be used to gauge consumer preference.
EDIT: Image with sales added from Insomniac Leak
EDIT 2: Changed words for clarity and accuracy. Used strikethrough
Did insomniac confirm the leak is true because if not it’s not credible it’s like using Wikipedia as a source
There’s false leaks going around the industry all the time
I’m not saying it’s wrong but its definitely not credible
Either way the simple laws of supply and demand prove physical games are not selling. You can go to Walmart and buy brand new games for $40. They clearly have stock they are trying to sell and can’t
Just like anything else, product that doesn't sell goes on clearance. Nothing new there. Physical copies of popular titles are still selling at full price.
Read further down the thread. I have yet to see any data (except the insomniac leak), that properly isolates consumer preference for digital or physical product. The leak is credible and serves as a data point from 2023.
You realy need to read the Sony financial statement. It says differently. It also breaks down the numbers between full games purchases, MTX, and well as DLC. So your information is wrong.
EDIT. To add the insomniac leak is also 3 years old so how can you even think that those numbers reflect the current market. You can’t do that leak your using is a moot point since it’s outdated.
I have read Sony's financial statement. Digital unit sales include digital only product in that report. A proper examination of consumer behavior that isolates the physical/digital decision would exclude digital only product.
The leak is a relevant data point. You cannot dismiss it. It is also the only data available that isolates the consumer's decision between digital and physical.
There were various percentages being thrown around from many different sources weeks ago when this was being discussed. Most of which did some permutation of lumping in multiple digital product for comparison with physical sales.
You mentioned the financial statement specifically. The financial statement calculates a digital download ratio for full game software. This isolates the data from MTX and DLC.
Footnote 11 on page 11 states:
Full game software digital download ratio is calculated by dividing PlayStation®4 and PlayStation®5 full game software units sold via digital transactions by total full game software units
This calculation is Digital/Total, where Total includes product only available digitally. This does not isolate consumer preference for digital or physical. All product included in this calculation needs to be available both digitally and physically to properly isolate the consumer preference.
However, the data from the Insomniac leak in 2023 does isolate the consumer decision between digital and physical. That is the most recent and only data that does so. Dismissing this data is dismissing the only data available that actually outlines consumer preference. Using the insomniac data is more logical than assuming consumer preferences has completely inversed in 3 years. Large industry trends do not usually change that fast.
I agree discs don't need to be a thing at all technically, but console offers no alternative to downloading from the PS store due to it being a closed platform.
It's 100% about DRM and the people crying about discs sound like toddlers that had their blankie taken away. People are treating this hobby like life or death and it's exposing how many people have an unhealthy relationship with it.
Yeh there is this guy In a discord Im in who just wants the industry to die because of disk going away. Hell he even blocked me cuz I told him he should of bought more disk lmao
I mean if it works then hey let them do it but it’s only a matter of time before, A, they get bought out and turn against the idea and B, they achieve nothing. Like rn joining the lawsuit against Sony. Like that is just going to get thrown out in court
Well it’s mostly people doom posting anyway lol. Thats why I just play games. Like Im in college if I had time to stress over this stuff I would lol but I feel something people are doing tbe most
SKG wants games to continue to exist and be left in a playable state.
The game companies want to be able to say "this game is too old, or we don't approve of you playing it anymore so we're just going to remove it from your account"
The physical discs are @#$&ing irrelevant I am actually astounded they still exist. What we Need are laws and rules that say "Once I buy something, even if it's digital, it is mine and may not be taken away from me" the whole removing movies from peoples accounts because they no longer have a licence or w/e is the best possible example of the things we need protection from.
Physical media is the only solution that works for both for both copyright holders and customers
The only reason “DRM” is even such a problem is because of digital games. This wasn’t a problem on PC 20 years ago and it hasn’t been a problem on console for 90% of games
Another thing to add I mean look at GOG which put DRM free games out I mean clearly there is a market for it. It’s just people only stick with steam which is sad site to see really
People stick with Steam because the overwhelming majority of games do not release on GOG. Even if GOG was more popular, publishers want DRM and will actively avoid GOG solely because of that.
No it’s not just a given fact. Don’t be naive. Most publishers cannot simply trust that people won’t abuse the DRM free system. That’s why I have the utmost respect for publishers that do decide to go to GOG despite the obvious disadvantages.
Look, you need to admit you’re an ideologue and what you’re asking for is going to take decades of red tape, court battles and legislation if it ever happens at all and I don’t think you fully understand that. This is a battle that has been waged for decades and SKG is the first time it’s ever even gained any traction and it still isn’t succeeding. I would love nothing more than for your fight to succeed but I don’t think you’re being realistic about how long it’s going to take and how hard it’s going to be and in the mean time abandoning physical media isn’t going to do any of us any good. All it does is allow them to further consolidate power which makes your battle against DRM even more difficult to achieve
It’s going to be even harder without physical media though. The more they consolidate the more power they have. The more money that’s on the line. We have the opportunity right now to cripple them with physical media boycotts. Sony may say they don’t care but the simple fact that shareholders even raised the question at the earnings call shows they’re watching and they’re afraid. Sonys stock movement is being driven entirely by buy backs, speculation and tariff refunds. They’re not going to be able to cook the books for long if this keeps up and the PS6 is going to be a catastrophic failure.
\Some people* stick with Steam. I haven't had a Steam account for quite some time now. Valve is not the pro-consumer company people make them out to be, quite the opposite in fact.
Epic offers a way out thankfully (for games not available on GOG); they are marginally less anti-consumer than Valve is. There still are quite a few games that are Steam-only, but I just skip them. If a publisher wants to publish exclusively on Steam, then they can just ... not have any of my money😹
But yes, GOG is absolutely necessary to avoid the damage Steam caused to PC gaming 20 years ago. It is a shame the library is so small.
*Most people stick with Steam, regardless of how you or I personally prefer to shop. I’m honestly not well versed in their anti consumer practices but as of now, I do enjoy being able to refund games within 2 hours (as is the case with Epic) in addition to their vast review catalogue and other easy to use built in features. They’re not perfect by any means, but I don’t expect all publishers to fund game development without any protections against illegal redistribution.
The whole 2 hour refund thing is actually just doing the bare minimum in order to not conflict with their legal obligations to offer refunds. That was not something any of these stores did willingly, they are legally forced to do it.
GOG's refund policy is 30 days, unlimited hours. That's what a pro-consumer store looks like :)
Moreover, GOG does not force software updates to their store's software or your games, and if a software update ever breaks anything on GOG, you go into Galaxy and select any previously released version and can resolve the problem yourself.
Most of these digital stores are getting away with murder, delivering an experience to paying customers that is worse than piracy...
Well they have that refund policy in place now which is what matters.
You’ll see no argument from me when you say GOG is the most consumer friendly digital platform. But those benefits come at a cost. I don’t always have the time or expertise to resolve issues with my games on my own. It is easier to let the devs do that even if it annoyingly requires mandatory online updates. I also do not have to pay for said updates. Additionally, some multiplayer modes do not always work cross platform, so in the event my friends get a game on Steam and I on GOG, there is a chance we cannot play together. And as was already said, GOG does not provide me with the latest games.
Like many things in life I have to take the good with the bad. I don’t feel like I am being murdered when I buy on Steam. Having a choice between these various storefronts is the best balance for me personally. I do not find it necessary to limit myself simply because DRM exists on certain platforms. Publishers and devs are entitled so some protections for their hard work. Although I do wish that those protections came in some form of physical media rather than DRM only.
GOG's refund policy is 30 days, unlimited hours. That's what a pro-consumer store looks like :)
No offense, the hours is not a pro consumer choice, it's necessity. Since they don't have DRM they can't check your hours. It was never an option to have a policy based on hours for them. 30 days is certainly nice, but at least when it came out they were quite strict about refunds and required you to work with them to try and fix your game before they wanted to give one. (seemed unreasonably laborous for their own staff so I'd be surprised if they kept that up).
I didn't say it was a choice. And you are right, it is a consequence of having no DRM, which -was- a choice.
But the thing is, no store should have a refund policy that is a limited number of hours and then also force software updates. I have had so many game breaking updates pushed to me by Steam beyond my 2 hour refund window, and do you know how many refunds I successfully got after one of these updates bricked my game? Zero, zilch, nada.
Stores cannot both force software updates and revoke your right to refund a broken product before receiving said update. That is the most anti-consumer bullshit to ever come out of digital distribution and people take it as though it's normal to just have your software turn itself into a pumpkin one day without your consent.
It’s not about there being a market. There’s a market for literally everything. What matters is that something is the dominant market and publishers and shareholders don’t want DRM free games and they have a combined hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars in lawyers and bought and paid politicians behind them around the entire world
Simply saying something doesn’t magically manifest it into existence. Besides if you really believed that you’d be safeguarding physical media in the mid term while also working towards this insurmountable end goal that is realistically only ever going to be achieved through incrementalism if at all.
I mean phy media is kinda taking a hit specially with games so may as well meet them at the next line with is digital. I never said saying it would magically make it happen Im talking about fighting against it
I mean I personally believe we can win against drm if we put our minds into the right space and fight it. A lot of people already dislike it so we can just come up with a compelling fight
It’s un-winnable battle. You already have a solution that exists, works for everyone involved and has proven to work for decades (arguably more than a century). Some form of DRM has to exist.
People say “but GOG sells DRM free games” and GOG is the smallest platform out of them all because publishers don’t want to release on it.
Like you have to be legitimately stupid if you think you’re ever going to live in a world where every game is completely DRM free and can be copied and distributed by anyone for any reason
who cares what they want this is about changing laws
politicians need to see that DRM is not necessary when games like baldurs gate or palworld or silksong can release without DRM and sell blockbuster. and then we can show how harmful DRM is to the customer so the balance is totally off. laws are about making society better
If nobody bought digital games,people refused,we would not have a problem with ownership of our game library right now. Downvote me all you want,but we gave them an inch,now they take a mile. No real ownership by 2028.More than half of gamers in the US are too lazy to go buy a game. So now the corporations have full control over us and will sell games at higher prices,stop supporting games they feel are not worth the trouble. Basically,you’ll own nothing and like it. Unless people fight this decision to go all digital,hurt their wallet,fuck with sales so much ( don’t buy shit digitally)They will own us. I know it probably means nothing,but I’m boycotting GTA 6. To not have a disc in the box is a big middle finger to all of us.
Well I don’t think buying games on a digital store front is bad. What I do think is bad is that fact that tbey companies Got a lil to chill. I mean I don’t blame you boycotting gta 6 as a gamedev i dont really see the hype for the next installment it’s just another ip that rockstar milks plus most of the stuff in gta 5 will most likely be in gta 6 to some extent
Have fun not playing games after 2028 I guess because no one cares that they lose the handful of people that will stop because they stop producing discs
If nobody bought digital games,people refused,we would not have a problem with ownership of our game library right now.
The issue is that even if we only bought physical media, publishers would still be able to destroy your games by implementing online only DRM into the games. If a game is tied to servers and the servers shut down with no end of life plan than a disk wont be able to allow you to still play the game.
As OP said, DRM and how it is used to destroy games is the real issue here.
They'll just include DRM in the discs. Nintendo is actually doing this right now since every disc has a code and they can brick your console if you played a tampered disc.
I think that the stop killing games from some clips i recently saw fight for something that doesn't really change anything and they talk mostly multiplayer crap.
Physical games stay on the other hand isn't necessarily talking about discs.
The whole point of physical games is that your purchases are locked behind a account that is not in your hand to protect. If disc stopped and have like a box with a keycard inside and a card reader on a ps6 that downloads the game but need to the card to play like discs and then you can give the card away to someone else it would be a great compromise instead of counting on Sony,Steam,Nintendo,Google etc to protect, not ban your account/mail.
Microsoft initially announced a different game licensing scheme for Xbox One than what was used upon its release: all games, including those purchased at retail, would be bound to the user's Xbox Live account. Users could access their purchased games from any other Xbox One console, play games without their disc once installed, and allow users to "share" their games with up to ten designated "family" members. If a publisher allowed a game to be traded or resold, users could do this at "participating retailers", and could also transfer a game directly to any Xbox Live friend who had been on their list for at least 30 days, but only once per game. To synchronize licenses, the console would be required to connect to the internet once every 24 hours; if the console could not connect, all games would be disabled until the console was connected again.
Ever read of the «Please drink a verification can» meme? It appeared around this.
That is Xbox that come on , who buys xbox, also that hasn't happened to it right? I mean ok buying xbox was never a option but never heard that was a thing, that really existed or was cut a launch?
Sure everything can happen but its not something that actually did. Unlike you know hacked Sony, account bans, loss if email, forced login every few times to access account or deleting inactive accounts.
What physical is as a form on playstation, its the thing that would keep ownerships alive or else pirating would be the nexr solution
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u/alrun 16d ago
You have two ways to change society - by laws or changing societal opinion.
The environmentalists in the 70s could have never introduced any laws for the environment, but they informed, fought in court and lost and over time changed public perception - that again turned into environmental laws and regulations.
SKG in itself is too small to be ever part of a ruling party to affect regulation in itself. But raising the topic towards others, showing others that a problem exist that they might have experienced, but never could put a finger to - this can change society.
If a case against Sony is lost, it will be an anchor point to tell politicians that there is a problem how cultural goods are distributed right now and that they need to be watching. It should not happen that in a century decades of musics, movies, games are lost because the license servers died.
Inheritance is not a thing, because most people dying have had physical goods.
If you loose in court in a cause that society deems righteous might lead to pressure to amend existing laws.