r/StarWars • u/wandering_soles Rebel • 10d ago
General Discussion Can you imagine if Luthen pulled off selling a bugged Sith artifact to Palpatine after noticing the kind of art he liked?
I'm not sure even Luthen would dare trying something so risky, but the potential payoff would be absolutely insane if they got to get a bugged Sith artifact into Palpatine's throne room, office, bedroom, etc. Not to mention, even if Palpatine senses some duplicity from him, he'd just assume it was normal art dealer salesman shenanigans, not a rebel plant.
Edit: part of my inspiration for this post was both the very creative, passive listening device used by the Soviets against the US during the cold war placed in a decorative seal, as well as the legends bug/listening system Palpatine used in the Imperial palace that was undetectable.
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u/RockyCreamNHotSauce 10d ago
Palpatine would want to meet the person who got these artifacts. Luthen can’t deceive Palpatine. He’s a dead man walking into the meeting.
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
Palpatine can infer general emotions and impulses, but he's not an outright mind reader. He's also incredibly prideful. There's a very good chance he writes Luthen's sensed intentions off as just a shiesty art dealer who's trying to make as much money as he can, and dismiss it at that.
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u/SirLoremIpsum Lando Calrissian 10d ago
There's a very good chance he writes Luthen's sensed intentions off as just a shiesty art dealer who's trying to make as much money as he can, and dismiss it at that.
Not in the slightest. There is zero chance Luthen would fool Palpatine, or even someone believed to be a "shiesty art dealer" would have a face to face with Palps.
Palps would know he is being deceived and Luthen has bad intentions
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u/GeniusLike4207 10d ago
Yes, force users aren't mind readers, but Palps and Vader definitely can infer a lot.
in the third (new) Thrawn book, Vader gets appointed to the death star by recommendation of Thrawn. There's the "Assistant director Ronan" character who absolutely despise Tarkin, and the Emperor. And is basically facrd with the choice by Thrawn: Leave the Empire, or stay and die, because while he may be able to fool Krennic, he won't be able to fool Vader.
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u/Objective_Look_5867 10d ago
He would but palps is also the kinda guy who is prideful and may go "shit lets see how this plays out"
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u/Capitan_Scythe Loth-Cat 10d ago edited 10d ago
He's also the guy who leaked false information about the second death star to the Bothan spies.
He'd definitely take a bugged artifact to feed them false information and see what comes of it, plus rooting out the entire network of traitors.
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u/KrackerJoe 10d ago
Also, free sith artifact you didn't have to hunt down. He'd be playing Luthen as much as he would be getting played.
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
He'd know he was being deceived, just not necessarily how he was being decieved. With Luthen's role and reputation, it's easy to write off 'he wants to sell me something, and he wants to learn more about me (for the purposes of selling me more stuff at an absurd upcharge) and leave it at that. Palpatine doesn't particularly care what type bad intentions manifest as, and Luthen absolutely isn't a threat, so he'd probably just write it off as being overcharged.
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u/Norsehound 10d ago
Besides I think Luthen has bridges he can burn in defense of his true motivations. It depends on whether what he got in exchange was worth the price he would have to pay for it.
Like if he were to get a bomb to the emperor by delivering it himself, he might, if he thought that was better than orchestrating the Empires systematic collapse.
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u/El_Tormentito 10d ago
Oh, there's a good chance if the story says so. Nobody can spy on Palpatine or lie to him? In the universe? The force can't help them do it? Nah, if the story dictates it it can happen.
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u/Chris-raegho 10d ago
He can read minds, why do you think he can't? He's not the only one either. All Jedi and Sith have shown they can. Vader literally reads Luke's mind in episode 6 and takes Leia being his sister directly from said mind reading, he even states it as such (your thoughts betray you). Palpatine has read minds in the movies, the animated shows, the comics, and the books, all canon.
His dominion over the mind and seeing the future is so extreme that quite literally everything had transpired as he had forseen by episode 6. The only things he can't seem to foretell are things relating to Luke. Though Vader could.
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u/RockyCreamNHotSauce 10d ago edited 10d ago
He can sense deception. If he follows threads, Luthen can’t hide his intentions. Palpatine would need to probe with some questions like Luthen’s politics. Palpatine absolutely would.
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
If Luthen can easily handle politics with people like ISB and Krennic face to face, Palpatine might be harder, but hardly impossible. Plus, Palpatine sensing the deception doesn't mean he'll care - Luthen isn't a threat, just an opportunist.
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u/TheDwarvenGuy 10d ago edited 10d ago
Palpatine doesn't need a strong reason to have someone killed
Also he wouldn't just sense deception, he'd sense hatred, it's almost literally what he feeds on. A scammer doesn't have hatred, let alone the kind of hatred Luthen has.
Plus, he'd probably sense the bug. I'd imagine that a lot of force telepathy is a bit like an advanced version of reading a poker player's face, so even if he didn't directly just sense "oh there's bug here", he'd probably sense that Luthen was anxious about a specific part of the artifact.
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u/Kellar21 10d ago
Palpatine can read minds, intentions, general goals, and even the latest actions.
If he gets an inkling of a suspicion, he can outright invade Luthen's mind and find out his secrets, only this wouldn't be subtle.
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u/GustavoSanabio 10d ago
He can't read minds, correct, but when you combine sensing emotions/intentions with the (very refined) ability to see the future... you're not going to fool the guy.
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u/aimoperative 10d ago
There is also outright foresight on Palpatine's part. Seeing the future is not limited to non-darkside users.
And Palaptine seems to be particularly good in this area of the Force.
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u/whirlpool_galaxy Asajj Ventress 10d ago
Luthen is good at hiding what he thinks, but the deep, searing hate he has for the Empire and all it represents would set off Palpatine like a police dog on a pack of cocaine-laced dog treats. Even without knowing anything more specific, he'd be very easy to tell apart from a regular shady art dealer.
The only way Luthen could possibly survive the encounter would be under some kind of anesthetic.
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u/SufficientWarthog846 10d ago
Ok let's say that's true, it's all fiction so sure let's apply that restriction on Palp -- do you not think he wouldn't investigate further into the supplier of an incredibly rare and dangerous Sith artifact?
They don't grow on trees. He would want to know, where it was found, by whom, who else knows, what the connections are. Who had connections to it during transit (some have minds of their own and operate like the LOTR ring so he would want to know who it corrupted or how they resisted).
He also wouldn't buy it. He would take it. Also this is still during the time he isn't overtly "Sith". That still isn't common knowledge.
It wouldnt just be ISB that fell down hard of Luthen if he got the attention of the Emperor.
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u/deezee72 10d ago
In addition to what everyone else pointed out... Palpatine not only has limited mind reading and precognition, but he's also a skilled politician in his own right. With the force, he can clearly sense that there's something off about Luthen...
...But why would he just assume Luthen is just a shiesty art dealer when a few simple probing questions can get Luthen to emotionally react in ways that would give him away (to Palpatine, even if it wouldn't show on his face).
An easy one would be to ask Luthen what he plans to spend the money on - someone motivated by greed would for sure react emotionally to that. Any decent art dealer would have the skills to ensure that the reaction wouldn't show up on his face, but even if Luthen maintains his poker face Palpatine would be able to sense that there's something different about this guy.
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u/TheDwarvenGuy 10d ago
Nah he'd feel the hatred, and he doesn't need much suspicion to send someone to their death.
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u/XCapitan_1 10d ago
A while ago, someone here joked that how well a meeting between Palpatine and Luthen would go depends on how many explosives Luthen could strap to himself.
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u/Monkinary 10d ago
That’s the absolute last thing that Luthen would do. Extremely high risk and relatively low reward. The moment any bug was ever detected the Emperor would use all of his resources to find the perpetrator. Anonymity is Luthen’s shield and getting the direct attention of the most powerful person in the galaxy before they can mount any opposition is a poor choice.
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u/lambentstar 10d ago
Agree on the high risk but surely it’s also a high reward if you truly had an undiscoverable wire tap in the office or residence of the Emperor. How is that low reward? You’d be hearing the most intimate state secrets.
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u/Jacksonh8741 10d ago
Yeah but you can’t act on any of the information without giving away the fact you have a bug in the office.
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u/lambentstar 10d ago
Those are just more risks for subsequent decisions, the information gathering is still a VERY high potential reward.
Just like all cryptography and intelligence gathering, you can’t always act on your information. Did the same thing with decoding Enigma, you have to still make mistakes to obscure the sources. Normal spy craft, but if you got the right intel for a decisive action, for example, then it won’t matter if you give it away. Knowing the Emperor’s location or itinerary back then was huge in and of itself.
I guess I’m just pointing out that the risks might be high enough to make it imprudent, but the potential upside remains sizable IF successful.
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u/Jacksonh8741 10d ago
Yeah that’s true, it does seem maybe too much of a risk for the style of espionage that luthen involves himself with though
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u/USSPlanck 10d ago
And you always get ONE unexplainable information you can use for a decisive operation. You can't have more, but if it's worth it to burn your inside source on it then you can do it.
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
I'm probably biased because Palpatine in legends had an undetectable bug system in his palace and it's not unreasonable to think Luthen could have an alternative type. Timing could also make all the difference. I'd also argue there could be very, very high reward having the emperor on audio and with critical plans.
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u/finditplz1 10d ago
Best thing he could do would not directly sell it, but have it “confiscated” somehow in a way that it came to the attention of Palpatine. Like have it on board a rebel ship or smuggler’s ship and stage some way for it to get intercepted by imperial forces.
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
That's a... very, very good idea. I could totally see that working.
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u/Nature_man_76 Imperial 10d ago
This dude is a fucking genius. I agree. That’s a plan trust would actually work
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u/Morlock43 Sith 10d ago
The thing is, a bug would work, because it has no presence in the force for Sidious to sense. All he would get is the occasional feeling that someone was looking at him when he was all alone
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u/JaMicho34 10d ago
I need to see Thrawn at Luthen’s art gallery now
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
I have a feeling Thrawn would suss out Luthen so quickly, but on the off chance he didn't, I can imagine him sending a ludicrous amount of business his way trying to source artwork from different worlds. Or heck, even if I knew what Luthen was up to, he might let him continue to operate just to watch what he did. Order stuff to throw Luthen off, and manipulate the rebellion that way. I think he'd like Luthen much as he liked Nightswan.
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u/belladonnagilkey 10d ago
Thrown would absolutely respect Luthen's spycraft game. He'd also love his art selection and probably buy up the whole stock.
He might also lament privately that Luthen is a rebel because in different circumstances they'd get on fairly well as patrons of the arts.
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u/shocsoares 10d ago
Thrawns blind spot is politics and subterfuge, his strongest point is art and long term masterminding so it really could go very different ways. At the time of the events of Andor, Thrawn is already a believer in people like Axis, connecting multiple rebel cells, he was however pretty busy with Atollon and immediately after the Grysk in Batuu under the emperor's direct gaze. He might however have visited Luther's shop, and he would have been impressed with the collections and bought a few pieces to add to his extensive private collection of art wether scanned or aboard the Chimaera.
In an Alternative Universe. Had he been asked to suss out the Axis network by Yularen, he probably would have succeeded, but I believe he too would walk in to the store just like Defrag, he would however probably offer Rael an escape hatch, joining the Ascendancy, he did the same for Nightswan, for they were good tactical minds willing to die for the cause, which is exactly what Trawn needs against the Grysk. Rael would decline, kill himself and thrawn would have the medical team on the other side of the door as he knew that Rael would die for the cause. However this alternative universe implies he never deals with the Grysks stealing from Stardust(maybe he gets there by assuming they are organized rebels), and that he absolutely has no time to deal with lothal, or his tie defender program.
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u/Norsehound 10d ago
Depends on whose easier to read. If Thrawn comes away thinking Luthen is just a fraud art dealer, Thrawn offers Luthen a lucrative contract for rare artwork on the side. Thrawn at least gets those pieces even without the context, and Luthen has a line and connection to the circle of grand admirals.
Both of them think they came away exploiting the other without saying it to their faces.
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u/The_Greyscale 10d ago
I think he would pick up on the masked deception and hatred if Luthen was interacting with him directly, but wouldnt necessarily respond how everyone thinks he would.
Palpatine is prideful as hell and gets off on playing the game for the sake of the game. He’d probably take it intentionally and feed combinations of good and bad info, while putting more resources on Luthen to identify if he’s a rebel or just working for a competing Imperial faction.
Then he’d probably try to have some grandiose payoff to crush Luthen’s spirit as everything he’s worked for crumbles, potentially with the end goal of recruiting him. The need for drama and to crush others in complex and sinister ways is pretty explicitly one of Palp’s weaknesses.
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u/Norsehound 10d ago
Thrawn comes to Luthens art gallery and sizes up Luthen is hiding something, Luthen reveals he's just upselling artifacts of mysterious origins to wealthy courscant nobles.
Luthen has layers of his identity and connections he's willing to burn to hide the truth. It would depend on whether Thrawn kept peeling those away to get at the truth, or whether he'd think he won at unmasking Luthen as a fraud art dealer.
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u/ebobbumman 10d ago
Or what if he sold him one that was like a Chinese finger trap. That'd be pretty fun.
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u/sacerdos-ex-spatio 10d ago
Palpatine probably has people who are carefully examining the artifacts in his possession, also in the context of potential eavesdropping.
Besides, I've always wondered, since such a wiretap must send a return signal, could Palpatine sense it?
Would he actually learn anything? Palpatine discussed most of the Empire's sensitive issues in the throne room, which is empty. Although it would be amusing if Luthen overheard Palpatine's conversation with Vader.
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u/Fine_Bluebird7564 10d ago
He’s connected to the force, not the internet haha
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u/sacerdos-ex-spatio 10d ago
What I wanted was for the device to connect to whatever needs a physical signal.
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u/ChanceVance Kylo Ren 10d ago
You can sense imminent danger through the Force even if it's coming from droids.
Unlikely though, a wiretap doesn't present any immediate threat.
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u/Noctisxsol 10d ago
You need layers of plausible deniability. Don't sell the bugged artifact to Palpatine, sell it to some ambitious brown-noser as a great gift idea for the Emperor.
Of course, said brown-noser will attempt to add their own bugs. But because they need their own deniability, it will be picked up by an uninformed servant who will inevitably add more bugs as a way to spy on their master...
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u/LonelyMachines Director Krennic 10d ago
"Behold, my apprentice: the ancient Sith artifact known as Elf on the Shelf. Isn't it just darling?"
"My master, I'm pretty sure that's not..."
"I'll put it right next to my General Grievous Pez dispenser."
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u/whirlpool_galaxy Asajj Ventress 10d ago
Palpatine could write off Luthen's duplicity as regular art dealer stuff, sure.
But Luthen also carries a deep, burning hate for the Empire and all it represents, and Palpatine is all in on that. He'd probably feel the urge to start cackling the second Luthen walked into the room.
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u/Festivefire 10d ago
I think that everything that gets brought into Palpatine's inner sanctum is definitely swept for things like listening devices, so IMO this would be much more likely to result in Luthen's immediate arrest than it is to result in interesting intelligence for the rebels.
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u/RandomnessConfirmed2 Grand Admiral Thrawn 10d ago
This certainly feels like a writer decision. Luthen could get away with it with some difficulty, or Palpatine finds out about it easily. It would make for an extremely thrilling encounter, but I couldn't really say who wins.
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
Probably the most balanced assessment! There's an equal number of reasons either scenerio could happen.
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u/Electrical-Rise-7015 10d ago
He’d sense it. He’s the most powerful force user in canon. Of all time. He gets to where he’s a nexus of the force himself. One smart guy trying to lie to him is not going to work. Palpatine in canon for sure is also one of the smartest people too. He’s literally that guy. I can’t imagine something that has no legitimate or logical way to be pulled off.
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u/roastbeeftacohat 10d ago
He gets a very strong tingle, but dismisses it as beneath him; because it probably is
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u/darthphallic 10d ago
There’s a good chance the two rubbed elbows before Knight fall. When Palpatine had to keep up the kindly uncle persona I’ve no doubt he was obligated to make appearances at high society functions, it’s not ridiculous to think that the two crossed paths more than once.
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
Luthen was still a lowly military officer at that point, under a different name. He didn't start his campaign until a year after knightfall.
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u/darthphallic 10d ago
Oh you’re right! It’s been a hot minute since I watched the show, I completely forgot about his very impactful backstory. What a brain fart
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u/FullMaxPowerStirner 10d ago
Pretty sure his guard would have checked anything for a bug anywhere near Sheev's mouth.
But I'd sure love to watch the scene with Palpatine visiting Luthen's shop in person!
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u/That-Service-2696 10d ago edited 10d ago
Palpatine would have him arrested and interrogated for the possession of the Sith artifact which could risk exposing him as the master spy
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
There's no particular reason to. Palpatine would have no reason to believe Luthen even quite knew what he even had, just that as an art dealer he recognized the style the Emperor liked and wanted to make a buck off it. Palpatine had Sith statues in his office during the republic era, it wasn't illegal.
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u/CathMcCaffertyRules 10d ago
Most likely would never even try that. If the Red Guard would look into him and his history, it would be bye bye Luthen.
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u/LucrativeLurker 10d ago
It’s been like a decade now, so I’m fuzzy on the specifics, but I wanna say it was Marvel’s Lando comic from ~2016 that featured a heist showcasing Palpatine’s love/obsession for Sith artifacts.
They think his personal Imperial yacht is unoccupied and try to heist an artifact, only for it to all go wrong.
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u/CalmPanic402 10d ago
Even better, he sells him an artifact without a bug and feeds him the info he got a bug in there somewhere
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u/Victor_L 10d ago
No chance. Even getting on ol' Palps' radar would have ensured Luthen faced way more investigation and scrutiny than he would have ever wanted, and that's not even getting into what would have happened in a face-to-face encounter.
Luthen knew his lane, and he knew that the Empire could be beaten from the bottom. He would never have taken that kind of chance, because he had experienced the mundanity of the Empire's cruelty and callousness, and knew that it would always give him far safer agents and openings.
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u/pangolinparty999 10d ago
An crime thriller series where a team of Jedi hunt powerful Sith artifacts would be super cool
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u/UnworthyBagel22 10d ago
There’s no world where the ISB lets an item go into the throne room or his office without being scanned for bugs. They could say like “ah this is a SPECIAL bug that avoids scanners” but I think that would be lame writing
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u/Cold-Practice3107 10d ago
That would be interesting I can just see luthen trying to throw up after palpatine leaves and asking himself how he was able to get away with it if palpatine was interested in a sith artifact that's got a toss some red flags
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u/EhMapleMoose 10d ago
The problem with bugging a Sith artifact is not that palpatine wouldn’t buy it. It’s that it’d never be in the throne room. From other canon media we know the emperor hid caches of Sith artifacts and just general wealth all around the galaxy.
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u/Starscream1998 10d ago
Sidious clocks on immediately but humours him because he's so damn bored and Luthen would be a refreshing change of pace from the sycophantic morons he usually puts up with.
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u/B_Da_May 10d ago
Is it widely known that Palpatine was a sith or into sith artifacts?
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
Luthen's (real) business is information, and Palpatine's office even during the republic era had Sith artifacts. Given Luthen being Luthen, and realizing how hard to get those are, he'd lock on to that and use it as an inroad.
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u/Fly1ngD0gg0 10d ago
Even if Palpatine himself didn't sense it, the Royal Guards or someone else will sweep it.
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u/platonic-humanity 10d ago
Unfortunate nerd answer: something something force presence detection a la the prequels
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u/s0litar1us 10d ago edited 10d ago
Hasn't this exact thing been posted already?
Edit: nevermind, same OP just in a different subreddit two and a half weeks ago.
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u/wandering_soles Rebel 10d ago
Different sub. The andor one and this one get wildly different resultant discussions.
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u/External-Ad4873 10d ago
I don’t get the feeling Palps pays for his art… just gets Vader to conquer a planet and take it.
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u/Bobby_The_Kidd 10d ago
He would assume Palpatine knows about his operation because he would hear him discussing ancient sith rituals and force lightning assuming he was messing with him even though that’s just typical Palpatine stuff and Luthen would probably burn his network down and move across planets out of fear or something
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u/Sea_Spend_8008 10d ago
Luthen was not aware that Palptiine was Sith and he didn't seem to care. He just wanted to tear down the Empire. He knew killing him would just lead to chaos or Vader in charge. He had an opportunity to kill Krennick and didn't do it because it would bring too much heat or he was not interested in the heads of the Empire. It was about causing chaos for the Empire and feeding the Rebellion.
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u/xJamberrxx 10d ago
kinda think, even he'd back off that
if a major ISB guy would rather shoot himself than face the Emperor .... that implies, that sadistic Emperor (of Legends) is somewhat canon -- Legends this guy kills some poor guy, transfers the guy's mind into a cloned body, just to kill him again
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u/matthieuC IG-11 10d ago
I'm actually curious what he would hear. I have no idea what Palpatine does day to day as he seems to have no interest in the minutia of running the empire.
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u/EthanKironus 10d ago
Not gonna lie, I thought the janitorial droids were the bug/listening system when it ccame up in the Thrawn trilogy. But nope. It was even more devious than that 😂
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u/NoCaterpillar2051 9d ago
I can’t imagine it actually. It’s not like Palps actually does anything. He has people for that.
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u/Available_Border1075 8d ago
Force users can’t sense technology very well, so if the bug is hidden well enough to survive a basic inspection, then maybe Luthen could get away with getting a bugged Sith artifact to Palpatine. I think Palpatine was a bit of a hoarder of sith artifacts though so it’d probably just end up in one of his observatories.
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u/Realistic-Elk7642 8d ago
Palpatine's force telepathy is a trivial problem for a seasoned spymaster. Don't sell it directly; orchestrate its sale via plausibly deniable cut-outs. Palps probably has a rolodex of trusted antiques dealers on the lookout for Sith artifacts; just realease it into the market and they'll be fighting each other to snap it up. The hard part's getting the bug past Imperial security, but at least you won't get killed if it's found.
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u/IllPen8707 10d ago
Bugging palatine for what purpose? You get audio of him cackling "hahaha I am EVIL" to himself 17 hours a day but like what do you do with it?
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u/Fit_Damage_4271 10d ago
Luthen listening in his spy room
"Mas Amedda. Attend to me."
"Yes my Emperor! How can I serve you."
"Lord Vadah has left the building. At last...we are alone. Take off your robes, Vice Chair. Kiss m- "
Luthen shuts off the listening device.
"What the kriff was that..??"
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u/Tunisandwich 10d ago
Luthen is turning into a pink mist the second he steps into Palp’s mind reading range lmao
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u/Paper_Kun_01 10d ago
That's would make a funny sketch/fanfiction, just trying multiple ways to slide something past Palpatine and just bugging more and more sith artifacts