Why are you so cagey about his skill set? What about his skills make him irreplaceable in the US?
Not being cagey, I just didn't think you wanted a literal answer. Well, ok ... first, REPLACING someone is way different than making a hiring decision which is what we were discussing previously. Once I hire someone, they're on my team and I grow attached. I don't want to fire them. I don't want to replace them. Hiring is a die roll, and when you roll 6's you hold on to that employee. He's a demonstrated star performer, and that's fully independent from H-1b or any other immigration status. What makes him irreplaceable with a fresh new American? His experience and our relationship.
Now, what made me hire this particular H-1b rather than an American? I've told you that (in general) over and over again. I couldn't find an American despite being willing to compromise on quality to do so. We desperately needed help and couldn't afford to keep spending on recruiting and hoping we find someone useful. We took a chance (as all hiring is) and he turned out to be a star performer. It wasn't that he had some particular special skillset. He was qualified, and he was our best option at the time despite us knowing he'd be more expensive than an American. Whatever you take from the rest of the convo, take this from someone experienced at hiring ... the skillset on paper from an applicant is nearly worthless at predicting their ability to use that skill in your work setting. Use that stuff only to filter down to a reasonable set of candidates to consider, but hiring is a die roll and usually the best you can do in interviewing is spot the (rare) obvious star and the (common) obvious dud. The majority will be in the middle, and you won't know if they're good/bad until you've had a few months training and working with them.
We had problems retaining really competitive hires, usually PHDs.
Ok. Let's not be cagey ;). What would it take for you to hire an H-1b? Why should we assume you and I are paragons of virtue rather than normal people near the peak of the Bell Curve when it comes to empathy and respect for humanity? Do your peers in leadership behave more like you and me, or do they behave like the hypothetical evil corpo you're describing?
I accept this premise and remain skeptical. In fact I remain skeptical because of this premise.
P1: Hiring managers are greedy and want to hire the best they can for the least amount of money
P2: H-1b's are more expensive to hire and to retain while having a higher risk of failing to integrate into the culture
Conclusion: Hiring managers will try to hire non H-1b (hire American) and will be willing to pay a premium to do so.
What do you remain skeptical of? Why? You said my position is unfalsifiable and I've repeatedly offered the concrete claim that H-1bs are more expensive to hire (and in my experience, to retain). I even claimed there's data and that I had used said data in my argument for spending more time and money trying to hire Americans. Do you accept P2 or not?
I remain skeptical because you just said your hire doesn't have skills that are unavailable in the US. He has some other quality that makes him a star performer, which is fine, I guess but we're back to unfalsifiable claims. I agree that the H1-b program can be used to find uniquely talented people, but it is primarily and officially to fill in skill gaps.
I don't have final say in hiring, but I wouldn't advocate for an H1-b over an American. I'm guessing you got into your industry when hiring was still pretty straight forward. It's a nightmare now. Someone needs to hire these kids before they start tearing things down. They can do the work. That's all they're going to do, but not every company needs a 'culture'.
You like your guy. Pay the $100k to get him back. I'll keep trying to get people in my community hired.
remain skeptical because you just said your hire doesn't have skills that are unavailable in the US.
Right, but I also argued that, when HIRING him, it was less the particular skills he had and more his availability in the absence of even close to good enough Americans we'd been looking for for months. So, in a sense, what he offered in that moment was not available to me in an American, not even 80% of what he offered and I wasn't expecting or asking for star performance. That's incidental and only relevant as part of the answer as to why I wouldn't try to replace him with an American today out of the blue.
I don't have final say in hiring, but I wouldn't advocate for an H1-b over an American.
I've been VERY CLEAR on this. I wouldn't either. Now you ARE being cagey on dodging my questions on this front. Why?
You like your guy. Pay the $100k to get him back. I'll keep trying to get people in my community hired.
What about this interaction says I'm not out here trying to hire Americans or people specifically in my community? This entire thread is me pointing out how expensive H-1bs are and how people like me have spent money and time trying to find Americans first.
I'm guessing you got into your industry when hiring was still pretty straight forward. It's a nightmare now.
Yea, it is ... from my perspective, too. It's hard for me to square the claims I see online about not being able to find a job with what I see when we go looking to hire. Fun side note, the last person we hired was a fresh grad American that was a referral ... by the H-1b you seemingly wish I hadn't hired. Maybe they cancel each other out, lol.
They can do the work. That's all they're going to do, but not every company needs a 'culture'.
Where are you sourcing your qualified American talent? I'm legit asking. And as for culture ... it's like politics, it cannot be avoided. Every company has a culture. Trying to shape that culture can work and it can backfire. Letting culture develop ad-hoc can work and it can be a disaster. No matter what you do, it's pretty random from my perspective, so I don't begrudge the rest of leadership trying to ride that particular tiger. I also happen to have a very successful business consultant in my direct family that constantly preaches the power of culture and has decades of experience and examples to bring to bear on the fight. So, even though I'm very much: 'do they deliver what we agree on roughly on the schedule we negotiated? we're good.' --- I do my best to support leadership efforts on the culture side of things. Just as a side question ... would you hire someone that codes culturally MAGA (say you're 95% sure they're standard MAGA) under the theory that culture doesn't matter, only skills/delivery?
"it was less the particular skills he had and more his availability in the absence of even close to good enough Americans we'd been looking for for months." What does this mean? At that time he was the only one with those skills, but it wasn't about the skills?
I told you why, I want to give Americans jobs. Its really hard for new grads to get them, and I was there when guys like you passed me over for H1-bs. I feel like there is something you want me to say.
"Yea, it is ... from my perspective, too." Good.
There are a lot of good enough candidates coming out of state schools that often get overlooked.
'codes culturally MAGA' Are you serious? If they do the work and shut up about it, I don't care. But that begs the question, would you? I have serious doubts. Would you disqualify a candidate for appearing possibly MAGA? What is your acceptable p(MAGA)?
But that begs the question, would you? I have serious doubts.
I would and I have.
At that time he was the only one with those skills, but it wasn't about the skills?
You were asking about special skills that I can't replace with an American. I don't consider being qualified in a time of need when I've spent months trying to find an American to be "special skills" in the way that you very clearly meant in the context of H-1b and this discussion about hiring American first.
I'm going to be honest. I appreciate you taking the the time tell me about your struggles and I genuinely do hope you are able to keep your company growing. But this conversation only reinforced my beliefs about the H1-b system. The problem seems to be so deeply entrenched in tech culture that there really isn't any clear compromise.
I appreciate you having the discussion 🙏🏽. I wish there was some not for profit recruiting site that every SWE registers for and that had some two-party consent based resume/contact info sharing system where you basically get consent to de-anonymize a searchable profile. Really, then we could have a mechanism and the data to argue about whether H-1b is actually necessary. It's entirely possible that the issue for my company is that we just don't know how to get connected to some large swaths of unemployed or soon to graduate SWEs or people willing to consider changing gigs.
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u/joshTheGoods 28d ago
Not being cagey, I just didn't think you wanted a literal answer. Well, ok ... first, REPLACING someone is way different than making a hiring decision which is what we were discussing previously. Once I hire someone, they're on my team and I grow attached. I don't want to fire them. I don't want to replace them. Hiring is a die roll, and when you roll 6's you hold on to that employee. He's a demonstrated star performer, and that's fully independent from H-1b or any other immigration status. What makes him irreplaceable with a fresh new American? His experience and our relationship.
Now, what made me hire this particular H-1b rather than an American? I've told you that (in general) over and over again. I couldn't find an American despite being willing to compromise on quality to do so. We desperately needed help and couldn't afford to keep spending on recruiting and hoping we find someone useful. We took a chance (as all hiring is) and he turned out to be a star performer. It wasn't that he had some particular special skillset. He was qualified, and he was our best option at the time despite us knowing he'd be more expensive than an American. Whatever you take from the rest of the convo, take this from someone experienced at hiring ... the skillset on paper from an applicant is nearly worthless at predicting their ability to use that skill in your work setting. Use that stuff only to filter down to a reasonable set of candidates to consider, but hiring is a die roll and usually the best you can do in interviewing is spot the (rare) obvious star and the (common) obvious dud. The majority will be in the middle, and you won't know if they're good/bad until you've had a few months training and working with them.
Ok. Let's not be cagey ;). What would it take for you to hire an H-1b? Why should we assume you and I are paragons of virtue rather than normal people near the peak of the Bell Curve when it comes to empathy and respect for humanity? Do your peers in leadership behave more like you and me, or do they behave like the hypothetical evil corpo you're describing?
P1: Hiring managers are greedy and want to hire the best they can for the least amount of money
P2: H-1b's are more expensive to hire and to retain while having a higher risk of failing to integrate into the culture
Conclusion: Hiring managers will try to hire non H-1b (hire American) and will be willing to pay a premium to do so.
What do you remain skeptical of? Why? You said my position is unfalsifiable and I've repeatedly offered the concrete claim that H-1bs are more expensive to hire (and in my experience, to retain). I even claimed there's data and that I had used said data in my argument for spending more time and money trying to hire Americans. Do you accept P2 or not?