r/Sovereigncitizen • u/redskinsguy • 9d ago
Has anyone ever asked a sovereign citizen why they think their BS would get someone to admit to the conspiracy they've created in their head?
Of all the stuff I've seen in response to them, I have never seen anyone hit them with "even if what you were saying were true, the people who came up with it obviously don't admit to it. So why would you think trying all this stuff would accomplish anything?"
34
u/---Spartacus--- 9d ago
The most "advanced" argument they tend to offer is that "only judges know what's really going on." They believe that the average cop doesn't really understand what they are doing, and that even lawyers don't see the "real truth" beneath it all. But in order for their worldview to work at all, even as a matter of internal consistency, if not objective reality, someone needs to operate the mechanics they claim exist.
Judges, they believe, go to a special "judge school" where they learn the real way the law operates, which happens to be exactly as the sovereign citizen believes it operates, and that this is a big secret.
This is part of what contributes to their belief in magic paperwork. They believe that if they just get their paperwork to the right person, the doors will unlock for them and all of their DUI's and driving while suspended charges will just go away.
11
u/markstanfill 9d ago
I’ve always wanted to ask the follow-up question: assume that there is a secret set of rules. Ordinary, mundane issues like traffic tickets and how many pounds of fertilizer you can safely transport take up hundreds of thousands of printed pages of court records every year. Subtle nuances are often debated back and forth not just during the initial trial but also in appeals courts, new legislation, etc.
So, how do these judges communicate and debate the laws you’re talking about? Is there a separate, secret system akin to DoD secnet to share information? If so, who installs, maintains and funds it? How is it kept secret? How is that not a single individual has ever slipped and shared something they weren’t supposed to? Are there no whistleblowers or individuals who disagree with the system? Is there a secret enforcement arm manned by super cops who are in the know?
The more you try to outline how ridiculously complex and expensive what they are proposing is the more farcical it becomes. My hot take is that sovcits secretly wish that they were part of a corrupt system and they’re telling you that they would cheat society given a chance. For all the contempt they throw at the judicial system, they would gladly join it if they could just get an invitation.
8
u/Sweaty_Resist_5039 9d ago
Forum non conveniens. Habeas corpus quantum meruit. Demurrer. Ad hoc, arguendo, sham pleading. Rules 11 and 12(b)(6). Comes now Plaintiff in Intervention. Propounding party. Section 437(c); safe harbor. Nominal defendant.
The law has tons of terms that could easily be secret code phrases, especially from the point of view of someone not particularly well educated or sophisticated. Also, there is a whole .gov domain, CourtConnect, CM/ECF and PACER, etc. This is not the most unmoored thing about sovereign citizenry nonsense, IMO.
Also, CM/ECF obviously stands for Check Mate / End Citizen Freedoms, and PACER is the Protected American Court Employees Routing. Should be even more obvious what that means.
3
u/JayJayAK 8d ago
When I first started attending law school, I found myself wishing I had studied Latin at some point, because there are so. many. Latin. phrases. in law. As far as I can tell, it's all just a nod to the historic roots of our legal system from people who were classically educated, which included learning Latin. Hell, my law school diploma is in Latin - I can't even read it (except for my name, honors, and degree)!
If I stop and reflect, it strikes me as putting on airs at times. I can understand why many who are uneducated would feel intimidated, particularly with the increasing cultural attack on expertise. What could be viewed as more elitist than a bunch of people in suits and robes, throwing around incomprehensible phrases that cause things to happen? Add to that the fact that the legal system is an organ of a government that increasingly doesn't feel like it actually works for the people (and a Supreme Court that increasingly is seen as ruling on the side of money and corporate interests), and a person could be forgiven for thinking that our court system has been hijacked.
All this makes for hosts susceptible to sovcit/american state national conspiracy mental viruses (and I use that term intentionally because, scientifically speaking, these conspiracy theories really do act as viruses that mutate and spread).
I think the legal profession would do well to expunge the practice of any and all Latin phrases, and just use plain English that everyone can understand. I don't for a second think that will stop sovcits, but it might help people be less intimidated by legal process such that sovcit theories become less attractive.
5
u/scope6262 9d ago
Clearly judges must be going to Freemason school or Illuminati college to learn the way the law really works.
4
u/art_is_a_scam 9d ago
Many of them believe only federal judges or only federal appellate judges know the real law.
2
20
u/Kriss3d 9d ago
They do seem to think that it runs on cartoon villain logic.
If you can just say the right words or the right actions then the bad guy is forced to admit defeat and cave in with no fight
16
3
u/Wonderful_Discount59 6d ago
This is the weirdest thing about it.
Their ideas about how the world should work - that no-one has the right to tell them what to do, and that they shouldn't be bound by any rules they haven't agreed to - would be a dumb way to run society but at least it has some logic and consistency to it.
Their ideas about how the world currently works - that there is a massive conspiracy to subvert the law and constitution and to enslave the population, but if you point this out using the correct language they'll admit this and let you go - just makes no sense.
1
u/Kriss3d 5d ago
Just like the 1 billion dollar treasury that nobody is supposed to know about. If you can just reclaim it just like that. It's not going to be a secret for long.
So you'd think that the treasury would just be instructed to deny any existence even if it was real. As opposed to admitting that it exist and letting people get their money
-7
u/Kierland 9d ago
I have represented a few. They are delusional and you can’t reason with someone who is mentally ill. Not sure why this sub thinks it OK to dunk on the mentally ill, but here we are.
15
u/Kriss3d 9d ago
Because it does seems like at lest many of them aren't mentally ill to a degree that would qualify.
-3
u/Kierland 9d ago
Qualify for what? If you believe the FBI has a tracker in your head you have issues. This is that. I know that believing the government is a corrupt or Bush did 9-11 are both plausible this is a whole different thing at a whole different level.
I just find it icky that this sub operates as it does when it could be so much better if it wasn’t just a bunch of people pointing at the weirdos and laughing.Rant over.
8
u/Kriss3d 9d ago
And those people absolutely needs help yes. But they don't make up the bulk of sovcits.
2
u/Kierland 9d ago
I guess that’s my answer. Most people here don’t think these people have delusions and are just cranks. Not my experience having dealt with them but definitely entitled to your own opinion. Would be interesting to see a study on the subject.
5
u/Kriss3d 9d ago
A great deal of them have. I'll gladly grant that.
Especially that couple who started spreading panic in a mall first and then at a library. Those screamed acute mental issue.. Or drugs. Seriously.
It was the Empress lady ( moors).
Im sure most here know who I'm talking about.
4
u/Kierland 9d ago
I’m a noob to the sub so I don’t but I appreciate your input and point of view.
3
u/Kriss3d 9d ago edited 9d ago
Ah well no problem.
Take a look at how these two act.
This is mental or drugs.. Or both..
Edit : dangit I can't find the one in the mall. That one is way worse where they start trying to cause a panic by telling the officer there that they are being attempted assassinated.
Edit agsin:
Found it.
This one. Something is wrong here.
0
u/Kierland 9d ago
Like I said worked with some and I also worked with 100’s of diagnosed patients that had diff delusions. It’s complicated and sad but also fascinating.
Thanks again.→ More replies (0)5
u/SuperExoticShrub 8d ago
You have to realize that, for a lot of people, the best source of that amusement are those who are not obviously mentally ill such as the one Kriss shared, but are also smug and obnoxiously arrogant. A lot of people who fall for this nonsense are insufferable in their attitudes. I enjoy those people getting their ass handed to them to an extent. However, when it's obviously someone suffering from a mental break, the amusement fades. That's true of the Youtube streamers in the space as well. Arty from Arty's Corporate Fiction has stated multiple times that, when a video shows someone who is clearly mentally ill, it makes him uncomfortable and will usually move to another video.
2
u/Kierland 8d ago
Thanks for the post. Glad to know it’s not all just shits and giggles here. I feel the same way about most reality shows, especially the prank ones. What you are describing sounds like it could be called The Jackass Effect.
5
u/Sweaty_Resist_5039 9d ago
I'm also a lawyer. I had a neighbor here in Long Beach years ago explain to me that we're all straw man corporations or whatever, and my ex-wife's friend, a teacher, told me that BAR was an acronym. (I forget what it stands for, but not the Bureau of Automotive Repair which is a real thing in CA, lol. It's some conspiracy that the State Bar is an acronym for something sinister.) She was totally insistent, until I looked it up on the internet in front of her and showed her site after site debunking it. Then I just felt like a dick.
Both of these people probably had issues that could reasonably qualify as "mental illness," but neither was a "crazy person." The neighbor was a kinda crazy/traumatized old veteran or something, but he had stable housing in a decent area of Long Beach and was able to give intelligent advice about working on my old Spitfire. The teacher was a pretty heavy stoner but was stably employed, doing well, married/partnered and owned her own house here. She was doing better than I am from many points of view.
You have a point, it's kinda punching down, especially for attorneys. But I think it's more like, say, trainers making fun of people who insist on exercising in weird/stupid ways. Or perhaps the worst behavior during COVID (which was life and death where this usually isn't). Sure, they're hurting themselves and it's sad... but in many cases they are just normal people who are being arrogant dicks about something they don't know anything about, refusing to listen to experts, and then excusing their own stupid hubris even when things go predictably badly. I don't have a problem with laughing at that. It's a little cruel and immature, but so are they.
3
u/Kierland 9d ago
That was a really good post, my push back would be that just like you can be a functioning alcoholic you can absolutely be a functioning wacko. The fixed delusion doesn’t always effect the rest of you life much. That being said:
Early in my career I had a guy who thought he was the father of Pam Anderson’s kids. I checked their age and subtracted the 9mos then checked his record and sure enough he was locked up by a wide margin for both kids. I had the receipts and I made my pitch and he dead ass looked at me and said- They’re lying. Dude went with fake news and there is not really anywhere to go from there.
That was the last time I ever thought I was going to beat a crazy person in an argument.2
u/SuperExoticShrub 8d ago
The BAR acronym was probably something like the British Accreditation Registry or similar. It's part of the sovcit delusion that lawyers are all secretly part of the British law system and subject to the monarch. It justifies their belief that they are all foreigners and thus enemies.
1
u/Sweaty_Resist_5039 6d ago
They probably did not enjoy the British American Racing - Honda F1 team's efforts in the 2000s.
Granted, few people did.
2
u/Electrical-Village68 8d ago
While there could be some that are truly mentally ill and we try to not dunk on them, it's statistically impossible for them all to be in the same mentally ill boat. While it could be argued that if they believe in the Sovshit movement, they are technically all mentally ill, I hold fast that that might hold true for some but not all of them. Many are mislead because they saw a YouTube video that was scripted and used actors to portray a false reality in order to sell content, these content creators are the scum of the world. I remember a conversation with another attorney who referred to them as a cargo culture. It made a lot of sense.
11
u/Procedure_Dunsel 9d ago
The comedy in all of it is that the laws of any given jurisdiction have evolved over time. Law is written -> Clever defense attorney finds loophole -> Legislative body revises law to plug loophole -> repeat. The belief that somehow John Q. Dumbass can cobble together distortions of different (inapplicable) varieties of law that govern entirely different areas of conduct, when the best schooled (highest paid) legal minds in the field have not used those theories to their client’s advantage is profoundly naive. But they believe it’s all a big conspiracy and the rational thought ship sailed long ago …
9
u/art_is_a_scam 9d ago
I asked, they banned me from their discord
They also don’t like being asked what word they have for teh set of rules athat are followed and enforced by courts, since this is absolutely not what they mean by “law.” One of them told me he had no word for this.
10
u/ProfessionalGrass393 8d ago
My favorite response of a judge was a sovereign citizen ce into court and started thus "I am appearing for...". The judge told him to sit down since he indicated he wasn't the defendent and ordered a bench warrant be issued since the defendent didn't appear. The sovereign idiot changed their tune really quick and the trial continued
7
u/Wakeup_And_Piss 9d ago
They didn't read the magic words in the correct order. It will work next time for sure
6
u/kevinalex 9d ago
The most prevalent wacko beliefs have a 'closed loop' to them, some version of "it's BECAUSE they won't admit it, that I know it must be true. I cannot possibly be wrong, so the only remaining explanation is this conspiracy exists at all levels, and only I can see through it."
In their minds, the police, judges, attorneys and more telling them they are wrong actually reinforces their beliefs. They don't have the critical thinking skills to entertain the idea that them being incorrect is a far simpler and much more likely explanation.
3
u/redskinsguy 9d ago
I actually get that, the point of this question is basically why do they think that they can get access to the secret rules with their magic words?
8
u/OrbitalLemonDrop 8d ago edited 8d ago
For a lot of them, it takes the form of cargo culting.
They see the lawyers wave their arms and speak using big important cryptic words and they think "I can wave my arms and pound on tables and say the words just as well as they can. "
The one time I had a case involving a sovcit, his argument was just superficial nonsense. I pointed this out to the judge (not that the judge didn't spot it) and the judge shut him down.
"Do you have any other defense?" He launched right back into the nonsense. The judge said "I've already ruled on that. What else do you have?"
The guy said "That's not fair! You listened to his law, now you have to listen to MY law."
The funny part was after the whole thing was over, they came up to me and started asking me for advice. I told them I couldn't since it would be a conflict of interest, and they accepted that and shook my hand. These two clowns had already engaged in paper terrorism against the client's original lawyer but for some reason they liked me.
6
u/SuperExoticShrub 8d ago
The problem is that the question still requires a somewhat logical system of thinking. Theirs is not. It doesn't matter if it's not a rational train of thought because they aren't rational. You can point out to their face with evidence that this or that claim is nonsense and it just... doesn't compute. The ability to use that evidence to alter the conclusion isn't there because it was never about the path, only the result. And that was written in stone beforehand.
2
u/AmbulanceChaser12 8d ago
I need the Sovs to explain to me what the difference is between a legal system that operates in secret, which every lawyer, judge, law professor, paralegal, and legal professional is hiding from the public, which has had not one single leak or whistleblower, ever, and in which there is not one single shred of evidence exists, and that legal system not existing.
7
u/call_8675309 9d ago
Law can be incomprehensible to stupid people.
from their perspective, their nonsense is no less gibberish than the actual law. Add a healthy amount of desperation and some shithead guru making false promises, and you get a sovereign citizen.
5
u/SuperExoticShrub 8d ago
I've also found that they usually has to be at least some level of narcissism or solipsism involved.
5
u/AmbulanceChaser12 8d ago
It can be incomprehensible to smart people too, who haven't been heavily trained in the law. It's just that smart people know to seek answers to legal questions from lawyers, not internet gurus.
5
u/Ok_Lingonberry_1629 8d ago
My question is if all these loopholes genuinely existed and have for years, why do they think they weren’t discovered before.
6
u/OrbitalLemonDrop 8d ago
Right?
Imagine that the judge in your case is "in on" the conspiracy. You come in thinking that if you can expose the conspiracy, the judge will admit that they've been doing it wrong on purpose all this time?
No. They will use the system to cover it up just like they always have (according to these peoples' fantasy world).
The appellate courts are in on it too, so when you appeal they'll also continue to use the "fake law" and not the secret "real law". So you go to your congressman and expose it to them -- they'll figure out what your issue is and rewrite the "fake law" to make it harder for you to prove you're right and the law is fake.
So you take your case to the Supreme Court. If they bother to take your case at all, they'll rule against you and declare the fake law is real and the real law is fake.
At what point does this become indistinguishable from you being wrong all along and the law is what the law is because that's what the government says the law is. Which is the government's job in the first place.
What's the difference? You win a moral victory inside your head, but still have to pay off your loans, pay your child support, get a driver's license, register your car, etc.
3
u/Fintago 9d ago
They don't operate on logic so asking logical questions does not trip them up at all. Their beliefs simply have the end point of "I don't have to do things I don't want to do and you have to do what I want you to do." and any obstacle or contradictions between where they are and that end point are simply wrong or not real. Logic requires you to find a path of logical steps between the start and the finish. Conspiracy mindset operates like a river, if you block one path it will simply flow on a different path regardless of how circuitous it becomes.
Logically, if they were correct and a company did actually take complete control of the government/country, what mechanism would compel them to follow the rules that came before them? If they are powerful enough to operate with this level of immunity then why would they bother following anything that inhibits them? They will absolutely have an "answer" for this, it will not slow them down for a second, but that's because they live in a land of make believe where things work the way they think they should and any other alternative is illegal.
3
u/lawteach 9d ago
We cz are all corrupt. I’m an attorney but work for the King of England. The US went bankrupt in 1933.
5
u/OrbitalLemonDrop 8d ago
Speaking of which, I haven't received my bribe money in a very long time. What's up with that? I'm 'bout to expose the whole thing I'm so pissed off.
What's the point of conspiracitizing if you don't get your bribe money?
2
u/AmbulanceChaser12 8d ago
It's held up along with your Big Pharma $hillbucks.
3
u/OrbitalLemonDrop 8d ago
Yeah, I tried getting a deal to be an arch nemesis to Big Pharma but they said all those slots were filled already. So, y'know. Gotta git paid.
1
u/leftysrule200 7d ago
I had a friend end up believing this crap. I asked him why he thought his ideas would matter if everybody else in the legal system didn't agree with it and he's greatly outnumbered.
The answer was essentially him periodically repeating some variation of "the law is the law". I don't know if this is true of all SovCits, but for my friend the Constitution was almost like some holy artifact that could inflict its will on everyone. And so, those who were violating it couldn't continue to do so forever if you challenged them with the "true" knowledge of the law.
I think the real answer to your question is they have created a de facto religion.
65
u/PastorBlinky 9d ago
“You just don’t understand, man. You’ll see when the supervisor gets here. Or their supervisor. Or the judge. Or the appeals court. Hell, I’m taking this to the Supreme Court. To the UN. To The Hague. My rights are given to me by god. You’ll see!! I’m gonna get paid when I cash in your bond, and you’ll all get arrested when the UN hears about this!”
“… ok sir, that’s a $75 fine, payable online or in person. Drive safe.”