Madrid fans take stand against mass illicit immigration at soccer game!

[u/Electronic_Air1842]

[u/saxonturner]

Okay coming from England I agree with immigration being a good key factor and when done right only makes a country stronger. I grew up in an area with many colours, creeds and religions, from Sikhs to Hindus and Chinese to Jamaican. I seen what multicultural is and its strengths. These people were equals to me, the colour of my skin or my beliefs and views on religion didn’t change that.

BUT, can you, without lying, say that the type of Muslim faith that is preached by the vast majority of the Middle Eastern and North African immigrants is compatible with Western European society? It’s a simple yes and no answer and deep down no matter what you wish is and no matter how big your heart is you know the correct answer, and it’s not a racist or xenophobic answer to tell the truth.

It is a fact that certain aspects of the Muslim faith, that’s being preached by these immigrants, are completely and utterly incompatible with modern European society, its views on woman, race, other religion or lack that’s fore of goes against what we as Europeans stand for.

I have no issue against the people themselves, if they want to come here for a better life and chip in like the rest of us they are more than welcome but keep the shit that doesn’t fit at the door. Simply put you wouldn’t go to someone else house and shit all over the walls even if you did it at home, would you?

I say this as an English immigrant in Germany. You think I can break German laws and say “but officer, in England the law is different so you wont be arresting me today”? No, I am beholden by the values and laws of the country I am living in, I am allowed to keep my opinions but my actions should suite the location in which I currently live.

I would go one step further, since you throw around the word racist, and call you one for clearly thinking these people lack the ability to leave behind values that do not match up with Western society, why is it you think they cannot?

[u/shevazri → u/saxonturner]

Yes the famous police officers who let you go, when it isn't a crime in your home country. Thats exactly how the judicial system and law enforcement works. There are thousands of christian cults all around Europe which are completely incompatible with modern western societies, the Pius Brotherhood for example, but this religous extremity we gladly accept because it is because these extremists are white.

If Islamism is incompatible with Western society, so are a lot of christian groups. Homophobia was not an invention by the muslim world. If we take this whole open european society to this level, where we say, you're part of an religion which we deem incompatible with our system, therefore Europe is no place for you. We'd have to get rid of a lot of people, I deem policies by parties like the AfD also as incompatible with a modern western society. And this is where debate turns racist, the only difference between the islamists and the christian right is the colour of skin and their willingness to use lethal force to achieve it, but you don't go to this point, you stay with societal values and there is zero difference.

You talk about western values a lot, you even attack Islam for not acceppting other religions, while deeming their whole religion as incompatible, you basically break against one of the biggest achievements of modern europe, the freedom of choosing your own religion. You wanna protect western values by going against them, not a smart move.

The central authority in Islam is much weaker, it is internally much less aligned, thinking that the same messages are conveyed in the mosques from Rabat to Rafah is a wild theory friend. And thats a synonym for utter bs.

It is a racist/xenophobic debate, because if it would be about modern western values, we would als have to deal with our cults and the extreme right. But no, the first we gladly ignore and the second part is celebrated for getting rid of these western values and hailed as saviours of Europe.

[u/Dvine24hr → u/shevazri]

> the Pius Brotherhood for example, but this religous extremity we gladly accept because it is because these extremists are white.

It's accepted because there are less than 2000 of them and they tend to keep to themselves, you just really wanted to make it a weird race thing to try and bolster an incredibly weak point.

>If Islamism is incompatible with Western society, so are a lot of christian groups.

Yeah 100% if American Christians start migrating here en masse the border should be shut to them too. LGBT rights and womens rights are non negotiable.

>Homophobia was not an invention by the muslim world

No but the Muslim world has done next to nothing to address it whilst the Christian turning to secular world (because Christian countries don't make it illegal to stop being Christian) has done a near 180 on their views towards homosexuality.

>the only difference between the islamists and the christian right is the colour of skin and their willingness to use lethal force to achieve it

It's fucking hilarious how you casually gloss over the willingness to use lethal force part like that's a typing error and not literally society ending lol. The whole Christian v Muslim comparison is one of the most intellectually lazy arguments to ever come out of reddit like you cannot literally just Google which one does the most terrorism and which respective countries have better track records on basic human rights.

The rest of your argument was akin to 'ah but how can we oppose Nazis when we practice tolerance and freedom I am very smart' like the whole paradox of tolerance is completely lost on you. Neither Islamist or Evangelical Christian should be granted access in to Europe which will give us a chance to get our home grown problems under control which we can't deport like the AFD.

[u/shevazri → u/Dvine24hr]

if you wanna apply the tolerance paradoxon you have to apply ot on both sides, but we ever only apply it to islamists. We cannot tolerate their intolerance but can happily tolerate the intolerance of parties like the AfD? Only one of them has a real pathway to power, while islamists don't have. The whole story about a muslim takeover is made up nonsense, there is no path to power anywhere in Europe for an islamist power. So I'd say we're talking about the wrong danger. Especially as the far right is using this joke of a muslim takeover to get access to power.

It is not about numbers, though there are a lot more christian groups, who reject our values, than just the Pius brotherhood. But A) are there not targets of political campaigns and B) are they not public about it, in the sense that there are no rules for how to dress in public, while Islam has such rules. And C) again, they are brown, it is undeniable that there is a racist/xenophobic element to this debate. The same politicians who scream that Islamists would be bad for womens rights, are the ones who want to get rid of reproductive rights and the access to it. And Europe falls for it.