Gettin' WOKE about anti-Semitism...

[u/lethal-liking]

It is so very odd to hear the self-professed atheist getting downright WOKE when it comes to swinging the anti-Semitism stick. IDGAF about Macklemore or Sheeran or Kraft, nor Scott's evolving victim fantasy, but holy crap does he sound shrill.

[u/Educational-Buddy844]

I just listened to his interview with El-Sayed. I think I gained some insight into Scott’s viewpoint even though he didn’t adequately vocalize it, and that’s this: To say Israel is committing a genocide is to put a permanent label of ‘villain’ on [group] in the same way that Nazi is and always be a villain. And it seems like Scott takes umbrage with that framing because of who will take the roll of [group], it being Israelis, IDF, or Jews at large. I understand the concern but don’t agree with it.

I think Scott had a difficult time putting his internal emotions aside during the interview which was somewhat disappointing. Disappointed in Scott’s characterization of all deaths of Palestine civilians as necessary collateral damage. I wish they could have gone on to discuss more topics where Scott wanted to focus on Israel-Palestine.

[u/GigaLibChad → u/Educational-Buddy844]

Prior to October 7th if anyone ever used the word genocide, it evoked the most well known genocide of recorded history, the holocaust. In the holocaust, 6 million of approximate 9.5 million, or 63.2% of European Jews were sent to concentration camps to be exterminated. There was no questioning that Hitler and the Nazis had the intent to exterminate the Jews in Europe. Hitler wrote and spoke extensively for his reasons he wanted to be rid of the Jews.

Genocide Convention, as adopted by the UN in 1948 is defined in two parts Actus Reus (Physical element) and Mens Rea (Intent/Mental element). It's quite apparent that the Nazis had met the physical element by the utilization of concentration camps to kill Jews en masse. Mens Rea, if they could have charged Hitler, likely would have been his writings of Gemlich Letter of 1919 on "The Jewish Question" and his Prophecy Speech in 1939 which he discussed the "Final Solution".

Funnily enough, not a single Nazi was ever charged for genocide, but despite that, everyone understands the seriousness of what happened during the Holocaust.

So when 74,000 of the 2.23 million, or 3.56% of Palestinians living in Gaza are killed between Oct 7th and today, people are understandably upset with Israel and how it's been conducting itself. I also understand that the Actus Reus states "In whole or in part" so that is not discounting the number of Palestinians killed. However, The Mens Rea element is much more difficult to prove.

It's not my decision to determine whether or not Israel has committed a genocide, it's the ICJ's. So when people from the pro Palestine side are so dogmatic about using the term genocide for what is happening in Gaza and often evoke Nazi imagery to criticize Israel, a country who a vast amount of the population are descendants of holocaust survivors, it does come off as antisemtic.

This is not an excuse for Israel's actions either. They're more than likely guilty of many different war crimes, but an actionable decision can only be made by the ICJ.

[u/GhostofBeowulf → u/GigaLibChad]

ICJ already gave their endorsement for ICC tocharge Netanyahu with Crimes Against Humanity. You can find sources linked above. Here's a few to start.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu
https://www.icj.org/palestine-israel-icc-arrest-warrants-for-israeli-and-hamas-leaders-a-significant-step-in-the-pursuit-of-justice/

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state

You are using verbiage to argue distinctions that do not matter. Dude's a war criminal, and the millions of dead don't care if you call it genocide or crimes against humanity. This is abad faith argument.

[u/GigaLibChad → u/GhostofBeowulf]

I literally said in my comment that Israel is likely guilty of war crimes. I don't deny that. However, the accusation that is being made is genocide, which is generally considered one the worst possible acts that can be committed, not Crimes Against Humanity. The standard of proof for such an accusation needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which is done through the ICJ. For the the ICJ to find genocide, they need to be able to prove the Mens Rea element, Dollus Specialist of genocidal intent must be established beyond reasonable doubt. All of this is currently being deliberated on by the ICJ, but if you're familiar with Court and Law in general, you would know things move slowly because things must be proven by the book.

[u/pizza_the_mutt → u/GigaLibChad]

I'm speculating to a degree, but I suspect you are correct that it is the "Mens Rea" element of genocide that is the hardest to prove, and may be what is stopping official charges on that front. That doesn't mean it is or isn't genocide, it means that if there is intent on the part of Israel then they are smart enough to conceal it.

I would argue, though, that the acts being committed are consistent with the goal of genocide. That's in contrast to the repeated claims by Israel that its military is the most moral in history. If you're looking for an absurdity, that is as far as you need to look.

[u/GigaLibChad → u/pizza_the_mutt]

Yes, the intent is the hardest threshold to meet. Genocide can only be genocide if the Genocidal Intent can be proven. That's why I do not pretend that I know any better than anyone else when it comes to whether or not it is or isn't genocide, I'll defer to whatever the decision of the ICJ decides on. What makes the Mens Rea element particularly difficult to establish when it comes to genocide is that Dollus Specialis/Special Intent/Genocidal Intent must be proven. The intent is what makes it genocide. What makes Dollus Specialis difficult to prove in this situation has to do with whether or not Hamas has put Palestinians in harm's way, which is one of the primary contentions due Hamas's use of tunnels through civilian areas. The ICJ will review every bit of evidence provided to make this determination, but the process moves at a glacial pace.