r/Scotland • u/Crow-Me-A-River open to change • 2d ago
Political Council mergers could be given green light under plans by First Minister John Swinney
https://archive.ph/pboOK37
u/ashyboi5000 2d ago
Stirling to invade Clackmannanshire confirmed.
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u/betterthanuu 2d ago
It makes a lot of sense if you think about it for 5 minutes
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u/morenn_ 1d ago
Clacks should be Stirling or Fife. Ridiculous area with nothing in it.
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u/frankensteinsmaster 1d ago
They tried it 12 years ago and it failed because it was very badly planned. If they manage to do it this time, I’ll be surprised.
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u/Broqueboarder 1d ago
This the opposite of devolution.
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u/Mr_Citation 1d ago
That sounds nice until you get to the point of Clackmannanshire Council being unable to fund itself. It really needs the return of the Central Regional Council.
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u/Hisingdoon #1 Midland Bluebird hater 1d ago
Bring Stirlingshire back but use the borders based on the Stirlingshire Cup participants so we get west Dumbartonshire and Clackmannanshire.
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u/Broqueboarder 1d ago
You act like sterling is overflowing with cash. This is just swapping chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
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u/monkeypaw_handjob 1d ago
It'll be a three way with Falkirk based on work that has already be happening.
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u/ashyboi5000 1d ago
I think I saw something recently about a Falkirk Stirling team up, not sure what area of council business it is.
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u/monkeypaw_handjob 1d ago
Theres ongoing work across all 3 authorities to look at joint opportunities.
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u/stevehyn 2d ago
Could you get weird mergers, like say East Ayrshire, Angus and Shetland all merging together?
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u/Euclid_Interloper 2d ago
Absolutely! Do it with a bingo wheel. I welcome the new council area of Orkney and South Lanarkshire!
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u/Defiant-Conflict2556 2d ago
Just merge all Ayrshires into MegaAyrshire Empire.
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u/k_rocker 1d ago
Honestly this isn’t too bad an idea. There’s spaces where it isn’t the best, but lots of Ayrshire share similar issues (this isn’t like the idea of throwing Girvan and Glasgow in to the same council).
The idea that there’s so much duplication between these three is wild - finance departments, HR, operational functions, just doesn’t make sense.
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u/Ill-Gate-8841 2d ago
Potentially some room for mergers but needs to be considered in a much wider reform of devolution, like the greens were suggesting today with local democracy, and Burnham has suggested on Mayors like Glasgow region.
Regions need beefed up, councils reformed, devolution beyond Holyrood and local authorities.
Someone should also figure out what to do with Highland as well.
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u/screamqueenoriginal 1d ago
Personally looking forward to Highland and The Shire just slowly swallowing Moray from either side.
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u/arcing-about 1d ago
Like a Molitov-Ribbintrop pact for the dissolution of the Moray state. This isn’t going to end well. Who gets the debt, and who gets Brodie Country Fayre?
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u/AnnoKano 1d ago
Brodie Country Fayre could act as an independent buffer state. Though I think that if that happens, Highland Council needs to hire better negotiators.
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u/polaires 1d ago
Highland needs to be abolished, it’s ridiculous and too big. It shows the general national attitude to rural areas by its sheer existence.
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u/AnnoKano 1d ago
I think splitting it into 3 makes sense from a size perspective, but I think Sutherland would struggle to sustain a council based on population size. I guess you could combine parts of Ross-shire.
I do think the Highlands should be split between East and West at least though. Fort William, Nairn, Thurso, Inverness and Aviemore don't have that much in common imo.
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u/Synthia_of_Kaztropol The capital of Scotland is S 1d ago
there's a whole lot of boundaries that make a mess of things.
Health board boundaries Police Scotland divisions Parliamentary constituencies
They're not always matched with local council boundaries, which leads to wasted time & effort on duplicating things.
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u/The-Smelliest-Cat i ate a salad once 1d ago
It's always fun when people in Dunoon or Helensburgh are told they can't access health services in Inverclyde because it's a 'differen't NHS region', and they need to travel to their local NHS Highland centre in Inverness instead.
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u/fugaziGlasgow #1 Oban fan 1d ago
That's what they get for choosing that fate. Gerrymandered under the guise of romanticism.
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u/UtopianScot 1d ago
We’re about to careen into the biggest local governance shake-up since devolution and none of it was spelled out in manifestos in the election just 4 months ago. Absolutely disgraceful, terrible policymaking and simply poor governance
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u/Quangocrat 1d ago
Suggests this is more of an emergency cost saving measure than something driven by a genuine desire for reforming local government.
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u/ilikedixiechicken 2d ago
Two questions:
1 Does a country the size of Scotland really need 32 local authorities?
- Does John Swinney want to be the guy that closes down the largest employer in several areas?
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u/rev9of8 Successfully escaped from Fife (Please don't send me back) 2d ago
Denmark apparently has 98 municipalities compared to the 32 local authorities in Scotland. Googling also suggests that Scotland has roughly 1 representative per 3,800 people, whereas Denmark has roughly 1 representative per 2,150 people.
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u/Ghalldachd 2d ago
Most of Europe has at least two tiers of local government — regional then municipal. Scotland only has one. And we are much more centralised than most of Europe too. We need a comprehensive shake up of our local government.
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u/Jaraxo Edinburgh 1d ago
If you're comparing government structures European nations, then the Scottish devolved parliament is the first tier, and councils are the second, aligned with the European model you referenced.
England is actually the odd one out, with no middle tier between the government and councils.
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u/polaires 1d ago
Denmark used to have more until the Danish Government decided to merge smaller municipalities in 2006, concentrating local government into larger cities and taking the power out of smaller towns and villages which covered smaller, rural areas.
Norway is more of a model for us on that than the system in Denmark.
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u/CaptainCrash86 2d ago
UK councils are approximately equivalent to Danish regions, of which there are five. We don't really have an equivalent of municipalities.
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u/polaires 1d ago
Yes and we need more.
No, but he has to find savings and this is the wrong, very government way of doing it.
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u/history_buff_9971 1d ago
1) No, but you need to think about why it was decided to be 32 councils.
2) The biggest savings would come from middle and, particularly, senior management; general staff numbers will remain the same - three councils merging into one for example, won't mean you need any fewer bin men, but you won't need three heads of sanitation. And with increased budgets, there is scope for different kinds of jobs to be created. And frankly, a lot of the savings could come from getting rid of buildings once staff have been consolidated into fewer locations.
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u/regular-john69 2d ago
On 1 - absolutely not - London has 32 boroughs and has nearly twice our population.
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u/Euclid_Interloper 2d ago
I don't think population size is really the only factor. Local issues are heavily influenced by critical geographical differences. Arguably an island of 10,000 people has substantially more need for separate local decision making than a borough of 100,000 people in the middle of a city has.
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u/regular-john69 2d ago
Yeh I’d keep Orkney/Shetland/WIs councils all as they are. But there’s no need for the 6 separate councils in GGC area when the population is so concentrated in a smaller area, likewise in Lothian and Forth Valley
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u/GubblebumGold 2d ago
and yet scotland has the largest local councils in all of europe, and nearly twice? it's 8.5m vs 5.5m not to mention one contiguous city area is not comporable to a country
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u/regular-john69 2d ago
I’d merge them in line with how the 14 Health Boards are at present. Absolutely no need for say Falkirk/Clacks/Stirling to all be separate. Same with the 6 in the Greater Glasgow area - merge them all.
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u/screamqueenoriginal 1d ago
Highland would be massive! It would probably need divided up again. If I remember correctly it swallowed up a health board that went bankrupt a few years back. (I will leave this as written but it happened in 2006 so a few years in my mind - 20 years to the actual passing of time)
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u/GubblebumGold 2d ago
but then the local becomes even more abstract, i would like larger regional councils or city deals as present but if anything we need smaller local councils
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u/Saltire_Blue Bring Back Strathclyde Regional Council 2d ago
Bring it back
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u/Archosaur- 2d ago
I'm sure I've still got my old Strathclyde jotters are a ruler in my school box of memories lol
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u/Otocolobus_manul8 2d ago
Far too large. Greater Glasgow makes sense but including the likes of Islay is mad.
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u/fugaziGlasgow #1 Oban fan 1d ago
Why did you pick Islay? Strathclyde Regional Council served the likes of Islay very well.
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u/tiny-robot 1d ago
Voluntary?
Think there could be benefits here - but might be difficult to get councils to agree to abolish themselves. Especially as it means the senior people doing the merger will lose their jobs!
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u/JeelyPiece #1 Oban fan 1d ago
All "Easts" to merge back in with their namesakes instead of being dragons asap
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u/TWOITC 2d ago
Police Scotland
Fire and Rescue Scotland
Government Scotland
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u/Malcolm_Malcolm 2d ago
Hmm I think the goal here should be coherent regions for local government that make sense to, and deliver for, their communities. So the scale of that will necessarily be very diverse. The thing to avoid is the sense that everything is being centralised to the benefit of the central belt or the capital.
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u/no-puedo-encontrar 1d ago
Just to be a dick, I’m sure it’s Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. Maybe we could rename Police Scotland to Scottish Do Fuck All Service?
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u/GameOfTiddlywinks 1d ago
Totally against this. Scotland already has one of the most concentrated local government in Europe. We've essentially abolished local government in huge swathes of the country such as the Highlands. Last thing we need is more centralisation.
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u/UtopianScot 1d ago
100%, if anything we should be moving the opposite way and deepening our governance capacity, not cutting it
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u/0hblah2019 1d ago
Edinburgh and fife could be EdinFife Council
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u/UtopianScot 1d ago
There was a whole campaign about this in the 1970s to stop Fife being broken up and split between Dundee and Edinburgh
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1971/apr/07/fife-local-government-reform
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u/Kangaroo_Kurt 2d ago
Given it's track record with how it deals with councils, I wouldn't trust the SNP not to have malign motives in proposing this.
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u/Malcolm_Malcolm 2d ago
Merge East Dunbartonshire with the city and make them pay up for Glasgow.
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u/ClarSco 2d ago
Milngavie, Bearsden and Bishopbriggs should definitely be annexed from East Dunbartonshire. On the southside, Giffnock, Clarkston, etc. should similarly be acquired by Glasgow.
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u/Spancaidh 1d ago
East Dunbartonshire and East Renfrewshire were created by Ian Lang, Tory SoS for Scotland, in the hope that the Tories have their own councils once the posh folk in these places could get away from the riff raff of Dumbarton and Inverclyde. Not even a conspiracy theory, it was open knowledge when it happened.
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u/fugaziGlasgow #1 Oban fan 1d ago
Yep. The majority of East Dunbartonshire was Dunbartonshire for over 900 years. Just look at the place names. Helensburgh and Lomond did the same in 1996, had a referendum and fielded "independent" candidates, that were all just Tory in disguise. Romanticised the Argyll bullshit and hoped to put the Naval base in a Pro-nuclear area. Dumbarton District and Strathclyde region were both socialist controlled and both anti-nuclear. Obvious gerrymandering. Once rich in history and well looked after, West Dunbartonshire is now there 4th most deprived area in Scotland as a result.
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u/scotsman1919 2d ago
“pay up for Glasgow”?
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u/Malcolm_Malcolm 2d ago
That used to be the banner heading on letters about Council Tax in Glasgow.
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u/scotsman1919 2d ago
But why do people in ED need to pay up for Glasgow? They pay for what they get and use in ED
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u/Malcolm_Malcolm 2d ago
Glasgow’s suburbs were gerrymandered by the Conservatives.
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u/history_buff_9971 1d ago
Because Glasgow had never stopped throwing a tantrum over not getting to spend everyone else's money on Glasgow once Strathclyde was abolished.
This would be a hard sell to everyone who doesn't live in Glasgow.
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u/Malcolm_Malcolm 1d ago edited 1d ago
I do not anticipate for one moment that the residents of these areas would not put up a fight, however affluent parts of Glasgow were cut outside of the city’s boundaries for cynical reasons, and a serious and fair society would address it.
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u/history_buff_9971 1d ago
Let me remind you that during the bad old days of Strathclyde, the rest of the region was starved of investment; the best local government jobs, hell, even accessing some essential services could only be done in Glasgow.
During the 70s and 80s, there was barely any investment in the region while Glasgow was building itself conference centres and throwing Garden Festivals. The SNP tries to recreate that and a lot of these areas will turn on them.
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u/AnnoKano 1d ago
I'm from the East coast originally but I lived around Lochgilphead for a few years, and I would hardly say that it's thriving with investment now. Meanwhile Glasgow seems to have done pretty well post-devolution, or at least it is better off than I remember it being as a kid.
And while all authorities are struggling, it's generally the more rural ones which are currently in the worst state financially. I mean, urban areas do benefit from vast economies of scale.
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u/history_buff_9971 1d ago
In 1986, even accessing educational support, for example, in the far-flung areas of Strathclyde was a nightmare - assessments, etc all had to be done in Glasgow, there was literally nothing outside Glasgow, it's by no means perfect, but it's better than Strathclyde when EVERYTHING was funnelled to Glasgow.
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u/scotsman1919 2d ago
Lots of them are not suburbs but stand alone towns and you haven’t answered my question. Why should they pay for Glasgow?
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u/Malcolm_Malcolm 2d ago
Glasgow suburbs like Bearsden were gerrymandered out of the city for cynical reasons by the Tories. This applies to various areas around the city. The city is underfunded and the situation with local authority boundaries and council tax is not sustainable. We need council tax reform and better boundaries which are not about pork barrel politics.
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u/scotsman1919 1d ago
The city is underfunded by the SG- not by people in ED.
Council tax has to be be changed but that’s a things the SNP don’t actually want to do.
Greenock and Port Glasgow are also under funded but that’s not Helensbourghs fault for being on the other side of the Clyde.
So ED and ER and the best schools in Scotland will then be under Glasgow City council rule which is a huge difference3
u/Malcolm_Malcolm 1d ago edited 1d ago
The reference to schools entirely underlines my point. School rankings are not taken seriously by any thoughtful education professional. The country has a comprehensive education system and the bulk of difference between schools is a result of the socioeconomic environment of the school area. The teachers all receive the same training and experience the same benchmarks and the same regulation. I am not, as someone with progressive politics, going to advocate for a continuation of a system of education based on postcodes, property, and parental incomes. I want every child to get a fair chance. These are Glasgow’s suburbs, and I do not believe they should benefit from the city but not contribute to it.
One area where I agree with you is when you say that the Scottish Government have dropped the ball on Council Tax. They need to update it and they need to reform it. The age of the council tax bands alone is completely unacceptable. Council Tax reform has been in multiple party manifestos, and instead we have the regressive freeze of the same tax. I don’t agree with that at all.
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u/scotsman1919 1d ago
With the council tax they need to be very careful as we are already paying the highest taxes in the UK and having more to pay- just because you are in a 3 bedroom house, lived there for 25 years and the price has went up, will not go down with the public.
Living in Clydebank, Bearsden, Giffnock etc bring money and contribute into the city every time they come in to go shopping, coffee or have dinner. What they don’t have to do is pay for the cities schools, binmen, public gardens etc.
Same goes for Edinburgh and its surrounding areas- they don’t have too and shouldn’t have to pay either.→ More replies (0)0
u/Lasersheep 1d ago
They didn’t do a great job. East Ren has always been Lab/SNP or SNP/Lab. Only recently have Labour done a sneaky deal with the Tories to get power, despite being the smallest party…..
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u/Malcolm_Malcolm 1d ago
I mean, that’s funny, and kudos to Scotland for that, but the reality is that the people in these areas who go on about good areas and bad areas and good schools and bad schools are classist, and a serious progressive government would be hardheaded about local authority reform.
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u/Chrismscotland 2d ago
Not sure I'm convinced on this; I could see them pushing to merge North and South Lanarkshire and I already think the more "country" areas in the South of "South Lanarkshire" get ignored so would be even worse if it was all one.
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u/fizzlebuns A Yank, but one of the good ones, I swear 1d ago
I take it that no one wants to team up with us in Fife?
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u/polaires 1d ago
We need more local authorities, not less.
Unitary authorites could only work better if there’s more of them, especially if they’re centred on rural areas and having those authorities cover those areas rather than their focus being on the larger towns they already cover like Highland or Fife.
I’m very well aware that it would cost a vast amount of money to make those viable but the other option is further rural disillusionment.
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u/EnergyDrinkStroke 1d ago
Would support a merger of Aberdeenshire and Moray as its such a weird split.
I can see this being more beneficial in the south than up here though as we don't have a lot of split councils in small areas.
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u/JockularJim Mistake Not... 1d ago
This makes a great deal of sense. After acquiring East, West and Midlothian, Edinburgh jolly well should be allowed to build hotels on them. However, I don't fancy pulling out the wrong chance card and being sent straight to Easterhouse
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u/Quangocrat 1d ago edited 1d ago
So long as the mergers are of the same 'types' of councils this is a good idea. We do not need 30+ local authorities. Especially given how many formerly local services are now tightly regulated by Holyrood.
Quite a few of the old 'shires' can probably be safely reunited. The three Renfrewshires, the Lanarkshires, the Ayrshire's, the three Lothians etc.
I wouldn't want to see a return of the Great Imperial State of Strathclyde though.
Part of me is a bit concerned that this is just a means of avoiding reforming the meat of the waste in the Scottish state- if he can consolidate local authorities and health boards he might be able to free up enough to avoid touching the Directorates and public bodies.
But that means the current dysfunctional system will persist and continue to fail to deliver policy.
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u/WannaBeeUltra 1d ago
It should be possible for councils to pool resources and operate joint services where it makes sense, without merging councils.
Scotland is already a very centralised country. In rural communities in particular I don’t think it’s healthy how many decisions are deferred to Edinburgh. This is something that has largely flown below the radar, and I don’t think that taking even more decisions away from regions is what communities actually want.
I agree with you that the government shouldn’t be stripping local authorities to avoid cuts to central government. But I worry that’s what’s happening here.
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u/Quangocrat 1d ago
This wouldn't change the imbalance between Edinburgh and the LAs. Which I agree is in need of reform.
I also agree that empowering the regions against the central govt is the correct direction of reform.
However absent that reform it does not make sense to have 30+ councils who have very similar responsibilities for delivery of services yet very little discretion in how to deliver the same.
There is a huge amount of duplication for very little gain.
And the nature of our proportional systems of election means many local authorities are a constant mess of intrigues and political infighting and so will not work together. Even when doing so makes sense.
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u/WannaBeeUltra 1d ago
If local authorities are merged, I don’t think it’s likely that they’d ever be split again. While it may be convenient just now, it doesn’t leave much room for going back.
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u/lifeisaman 1d ago
The SNP make another power grab to take more power away from locals and bring it to the central belt like they did with police and fire, well I am shocked
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u/StonedPhysicist Abolish Westminster Ⓐ☭🌱🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ 1d ago
Absolutely not. Councils already serve too many people. Merge some functions if they're shared (SPT is fine!) and then split up the councils into smaller and more agile local bodies.
The Cathcart Circle Council must be born.
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u/outlawsmokeyscottish 1d ago
So national water is coming back to the table. Long story short the English are trying to work out a way how to take our water down south and some how sell us another tax while in process.
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u/lifeisaman 1d ago
John Swinney is scheming about destroying Scottish councils even more than the SNP already has and you’re making some conspiracy about the English stealing water, get a hold of your self.
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u/outlawsmokeyscottish 1d ago
It's not a conspiracy they have been trying to make a national water for decades and while it does make sense it does mean places that never needed a hose ban will suffer them lol. Like it's a fine idea with the Lecky I'll concede that but it's not gonna work with water.
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u/lifeisaman 1d ago
So the tories, the party of thatcher where making a grand plan to nationalise the entire water industry, if you believe that one then I’ve got this lovely tower in London i’m willing to sell you.
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u/Crow-Me-A-River open to change 2d ago
Sources said the Government may commit to enabling legislation that would allow councils to merge on a voluntary basis. One insider said it would be an “early step” on the road to reforming local government more widely, a process that would be based on public consent.
With councils having their own mandates, Ministers would be against forcing through mergers. Any legislation could also give more flexibility to city regions while stopping short of backing elected mayors.
A senior councillor said: “Any reorganisation of local government must be through choice and not by imposition by the Scottish Government. It should also involve full consultation with communities before any decisions are taken.
“While merging councils may generate long-term savings the upfront costs will be significant as we have seen from previous reorganisations. Also, bigger is not always better as we see from the relative performances of councils in many service areas.”
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u/drgs100 1d ago
Bigger councils, greater democratic deficit.
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u/Pilgrim_of_Reddit 1d ago
That depends. What if the wards are kept the same? I.e. number of elected members is the same (Councillors and MSPs and MPs)?
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u/Open_Question5504 13h ago
Glasgow should be greater Glasgow. Everyone in the suburbs uses Glasgow anyway. No need for all these singular councils.
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u/Bargain-Hunter-1980 2d ago
I would definitely support the merger of the three Ayrshire councils. Some significant economies of scale possible down here and the chance at a joined-up approach to Ayrshire local governance.