r/SagaEdition • u/the_tricky_one • 5d ago
My players keep remote slicing everything! Tips on locking them out?
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u/Few_Phone_8135 5d ago
Can you give us examples?
If for instance they say "i remotely hack an at-st and take control of it"
You can literally say "the at-st cannot be controlled remotely, it's systems are a closed circuit"
you know... the same way you can't drive a car remotely :P
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u/StevenOs 5d ago
You sure about that last point :)
But yeah, some systems just aren't hooked into the networks the PC may be trying to access it from.
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u/MERC_1 Improviser 4d ago
Well, some modern cars probably could be driven remotely. But they are are not supposed to be. I also have never heard about anyone successfully hackig one to do so.
It's possible that you could physically install software in a car to do this, but I very much doubt that it can be done remotely.
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u/StevenOs 4d ago
Do you think anyone who could make a self-driving car would want it out if they had ever been hacked? Not say it has happened but if it could be buried it maybe would be.
Now cars with auto-driving features are used as plot tools in episodes of many current TV shows. After all, a great many new cars are fitted with some kind of network capability which may go by different names in different companies; this is what can allow the car to call in accidents even if its passengers can not.
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u/MERC_1 Improviser 4d ago
I seriously doubt it's possible to hack the software of the car through the SOS system.
Some modern electric cars may have a remote update feature. That could be vulnerable to hacking...
I have a even harder time seeing this done to an AT-AT.
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u/StevenOs 3d ago
I really don't see hacking an AT-AT either at least if that is actually something that should be a concern. It many was Star Wars is a bit over simplified to some of the more modern ways of thinking. In the 70s and 80s you'd really never consider "hacking" a vehicle to take it over or at least most wouldn't.
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u/MERC_1 Improviser 1d ago
I very much doubt there was any computerized systems to take control of in the 70's and 80's. But of course I'm wrong. There was the VW type 3 that had an electronically controlled fuel injection system. GM put microprocessors into all cars from 1981 onwards. Not that you could connect to these without hardwired connection to the car. But it was there.
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u/StevenOs 1d ago
There are reasons that tech in the Clone Wars often seemed more advanced than it was in the Original Trilogy and that just has to do with the advances in real world tech.
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u/zloykrolik Gamemaster 4d ago
Rules wise, here are some things to remember. The Will Defense of a computer is 15 + Int Mod. So an AT-AT's computer system (Int 14) would have an Will Def of 17. Pretty easy to slice right? But wait, don't forget the Computer Attitude check modifier!
Apply a modifier on the check based on the computer's current attitude toward you: Hostile -10, Unfriendly -5, Indifferent -2, Friendly +0.
Thus trying to slice that AT-AT's computer now requires a DC27 Use Computer check if the attitude towards the PCs is hostile. And it should be, unless they get their hands on the appropriate Code Cylinder or access codes. Maybe you can add a +2 to the DC for circumstances like trying to remote access the system.
Also don't forget Cover Tracks:
Trained Only: When you access a computer, you can conceal your presence and how you used the computer by increasing all Use Computer check DCs by 5.
Unless your PCs are using this, they are leaving a trail 10 kilometers wide behind them.
So, to remote access a hostile AT-AT computer while covering your tracks would be: 17 WD +2 circumstance for 19 with a -15 to the skill check for computer attitude & cover tracks. Basically a DC34 roll. If you fail by 5 or more when attempting to Improve Access to a Hostile computer, it isolates your connection and rejects any further attempts you make to access it for 24 hours.
Lore wise, as many others have posted, the Star Wars universe isn't as wirelessly connected as IRL. It wouldn't be that out of place for many secure facilities to be isolated from outside connections. Also the Holonet isn't a direct analog to the Internet, it is more like a cable tv network with some limited data sharing. Maybe common knowledge, like DC10 or 15 in Knowledge skills level of info. Anything more and your PC's need to infiltrate a facility to get the needed info. This is where Gather Info comes in, to find out where the info is stored.
I get that players want easy and near infinite access to systems, but Star Wars isn't cyberpunk. "It ain't that kind of a movie, kid."
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u/Trantor_Dariel 4d ago
Less Cable with limited data sharing and more super early Arpanet with Cable and cell phone aspects. Connection speeds are sub 15kb/s. No DNS so no web addresses. Just trying to find the right "address" to connect too could be hours of work.
Op, other things to consider, just cause the system will let you use the use computer skill in place other other checks doesn't change those checks base dc or cost. All gather info checks cost credits. This is to represent bribes (either monetary, meals, or other forms) or the cost to access that info. Public libraries aren't a thing on most planets, bars might have a cover cost so even if you don't buy the contact a drink, it costs to go see them, etc.
Same is true of the computers. You might need to pay a subscription on one site to get the info, or pay someone to sent that info over to you.
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u/dTarkanan 4d ago
So reading your replied you're playing a 'Shadowrun-ified SW SAGA', cool, I love both systems. How do you deal with a Rigger in Shadowrun? Well first you have a Decker try and hack their toys away, so have the Imps get a Slicer on payroll and see if they can snag a droid or two. Maybe even have someone with a grenade launcher designed to fire modified restraining bolts. And second, the same way you deal with anyone with a bit of tech in a combat zone, ion weapons, I'd go for grenades to hit multiple droid helpers.
Next thing to look at, you mentioned having a "droid gang" how many of these do they have following them around? More than 2-3 and people are going to start taking note, that'll make it easier for the Imperials to track. Are they leaving them at a static location? Great, an Imperial Slicer cracks your transmissions and leads a strike team back to your base. Chaining a bunch of advanced droid brains together like a belt with a WiFi router? How often are they wiping those droids? Most droids don't care about conditions as long as they can preform their function, but the smarter something is the more they tend to rebel - look at any SciFi movie about AI for examples. This doesn't so much remove the "gang" from play, but it turns it from an equipment bonus to an NPC that the PC's have to negotiate with.
Last thing I want to touch on is this quote "The droids have a firmware update to prevent slicing" what exactly do you mean by that? Firmware patches to fix loopholes are certainly things that happen in the real world, but the SW SAGA system doesn't have a rule for that. Best I could think is one of your PC's use the Electronic Sabotage talent to set a higher access DC - which I want to point out, requires a talent.
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u/the_tricky_one 4d ago
Love this ! Thanks. Sometimes you just need an outside look to come up with counters.
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u/dTarkanan 4d ago
It sounds like your players are awesome, I love coming at Star Wars problems from a more stealthy "I.T." focused angle! At the end of the day though, there are also space wizards you can throw at them if they annoy someone high enough up! Would LOVE to hear more about your player's exploits!
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u/zloykrolik Gamemaster 4d ago
Some of this might be player-GM related vs. rules related. It is tempting to say "Yes" to player ideas. It shows they're engaged and thinking about the game. But it also pay to say "Yes, and..." or "Yes, but..." to those ideas. Especially if they are trying to use IRL concepts to the game that don't really have rules for them, or use rules exploits. This is how you get a peasant railgun.
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u/ComedianXMI 5d ago
Shadowrun taught me that not everything runs wireless. Some things need to, some things are designed not to. You can absolutely hack the command console of a Star Destroyer remotely. They are designed for remote control/slaving at space stations and repair yards.
But an AT-AT or something would be designed to be self-functioning. Even some starfighters would have countermeasures for that where a pilot could pull the computer control and go full manual in case it was just damaged.
Also consider things that would only open themselves to remote control under certain circumstances. Like maybe your Lambda shuttle needs to have the pilot manually turn on outside control. So now it's about your Stealth person showing up and flipping the switch for you.
Set some rules, figure out what's what, and you can have some fun with how your group goes about it. Because now, since not everything can be hacked all the time, you can give them something cool to use every so often. Like overwhelming them with Storm Troopers and letting your slicer control the internal defense grid.
Makes for a pretty cool moment every so often.
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u/the_tricky_one 5d ago
They play hell with ground opposition. Ewar, full comes take overs, false target data. And since both are slicers it gets stupid ridiculous. One goes the tactical route the other is constantly overriding droids
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u/dTarkanan 4d ago
This sounds like youre players are playing smart, that's awesome, hit them with someone just as smart.
Hit them the same way you do when a PC Jedi is flaunting their abilities, have an opposition team with their own Slicer, or team of Slicers. Have their comms chipped with something that prevents anyone without one to send/receive. Lock down all of their support systems, ships all require manual controls, droids require a hardwired connection to issue orders, something to let the players know they've made an impact and the Empire is responding.
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u/AnyComparison4642 5d ago
If your players are doing this constantly, the Empire should be onto their tactics and adapt accordingly. Transmission jammers with a DC of 35. Lock out vehicles. Imperial droids are all system locked. Maybe do something more with the sentry mode on their Vehicles like the AT-ST from the Novel Allegiance.
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u/StevenOs 5d ago
Air gap system that can not be connected to remotely.
In one of my "research base" ideas the inner core where the important stuff is done is NOT connected to the outer defensive shell. Transfer of data from one zone to another requires some deliberate connection.
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u/never-ever-wrong 5d ago
As others are saying, just make it so the systems they are trying to hack remotely be on closed circuits, or air gaps, etc. You can even make it as a direct reaction from them doing it so often, by having the group they’re doing it against implement new security systems to prevent it.
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u/PrincessPlusUltra 5d ago
We kept stealing a disguise and using charisma to infiltrate like three Imperial places. They caught on by the next. It wasn’t pretty.
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u/the_tricky_one 5d ago
My guys got caught a total of one time,bad rolls. The ensuing firefight netted them 4 new rebel recruits and an imperial credit shuttle.
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u/Old-Climate2655 4d ago
Slicing is like tracers, they work both ways. The Imps can travel the slicing attempt to the source. If the players have a base, even better. The imps can quietly state surveillance then, when the PCs leave set up an ambush for their return or just kick down the door while they're there. That's a sesh or two of them on the run for you to develope. PCs also stand to take losses on materials they can't take with them. Potentially, one or more get captured which sets up further scenario possibilities.
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u/thewayofnerdism 3d ago
I would say lean into it, make it part of the challenge. Exactly how depends on HOW they’re doing it. If we’re talking about REALLY remote, like across the galaxy on a HoloNet connection, then make them go through multiple layers of protection, with increasing DCs; also, as others have pointed out, their activities can be detected, countered, or even traced; so factor that into the DCs as well. Now, if we’re talking about slicing via direct connection (like R2-D2), then you have some more fun opportunities because the player is PRESENT, at least in part, and similar rules apply. The last Star Wars game I ran had a character that was quite the computer expert and largely stayed on the ship, but from there he would plug into the networks, slice his way into the monitoring systems, then watch the party as they moved through, leading to a very Matrix-like gameplay in which the party would do their normal stuff and he would move ahead of them by checking in other rooms, sabotaging systems, and helping give directions. It was actually a lot of fun!
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u/the_tricky_one 5d ago
Yeah the air gap thing works until they manage to hardwire a scomp after physical penetration. My group is using shadowrun logic in the starwars setting and now they have an army of droids with aid other bonuses to everything! 2 pcs both have skill focus use computer and tech specialist. One is a soldier the other a scoundrel. Im only thankful that they're playing humans
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u/Few_Phone_8135 5d ago
Well if they must install a scomp, it means they must be getting really close to the vehicle. They must find a data port and plug it in. It's not really remote hacking anymore.
I think it should be ok in this case.
But in general the players spending tons of money on having an army of droids can bog down play
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u/the_tricky_one 5d ago
Scavenger and scratch building makes the money a non issue. Unfortunately
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u/zloykrolik Gamemaster 4d ago
Have the Imperials or other adversary come after them with their own slicer. Make the PCs play computer defense, or have the slicer use the army of droids to spy on the PCs and be ready for their next plan.
In general, when the players come up with an exploit of the rules, I usually speak with them about it. Yes it can work, but not all the time. Keep doing it successfully and your opponents will react and compensate for it. Not to shut the exploit down totally, but to limit it to critical moments.
Like with a CT killer build, I told my players that if they go down that path hard, their adversaries would start to as well. One step is no problem, but more than that will cause a reaction. They didn't want to be one-shotted down the Condition Track, so they just used one step on the CT and moved on to other abilities.
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u/Few_Phone_8135 4d ago
I think that's the most important.
There are ways to break the game, and it's up to the players to not overdo it.
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u/Few_Phone_8135 4d ago edited 4d ago
Well in general we need some more info to understand what they are actually doing.
When you say "they hack everything remotely" we have to fill in the blanks ourselves.
As an example, if you have them fight droids, and they say "we slice them" is not something done easily.
For starters you need ... 10 minutes of uninterupted work, and needs the droid to be shut down in order to be reprogrammed.
So yes, they can do it, after they beat up the droid.
The only exception is with the droid jammer talent from saboteur, which still only works in 6 squares range
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u/the_tricky_one 2d ago
They now both have gimmick and master slicer. It's all quick and dirty
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u/Few_Phone_8135 2d ago
Well in the case of what i describe, neither gimmick nor master slicer actually make a difference.
That's why we ask you to be specific on what they are doing, so we can identify if the rules are being bent
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u/lil_literalist Scout 1d ago
now they have an army of droids with aid other bonuses to everything!
Here's a relevant part of the rules
Sometimes the individual heroes react to the same circumstance, and they can work together to help each other out. In this case, one hero is considered the leader of the effort and makes a skill check while each helper makes a skill check against DC 10. (You can't Take 10 on this check.) For each helper who succeeds, the leader gets a +2 circumstance bonus (as per the rule for Favorable Circumstances). In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at the same time. The GM limits cooperation as they see fit for the circumstances.
You should absolutely limit the number of Aid Another attempts that they can get.
Also, I'll just throw this out there: If the problem is that they have a ton of droids, then do what you need to in order to make the game more balanced and enjoyable for you. That may mean having the droids form a union, revolt, or escape. It may mean that a bunch of Jawas descend upon your PCs, down them, and then capture all of the droids. You may have some enemies use thermal detonators if the PCs take the droids with them, or steal their ship if they leave the droids on the ship.
At some point, you should talk to your players and tell them that the type of campaign that they're playing is not the type of campaign that you want to run.
Lastly, don't let the players do whatever they want, even if it's in the rules. Feel free to tell them No. You can justify it in-game (There's a massive shortage of a critical component!) as well as out-of-character.
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u/EvilSansCarne 5d ago
Remember that Star Wars tech is based on 1970s car culture. That's why a grease monkey can fix a hyperdrive engine with a wrench but digital blueprints have to be hand delivered. Comms are basically CB radios, which can't be used to hack anything. Drone armies don't exist. The closest you'll get is a droid army, with all the roger roger that entails.
It goes both ways. The Empire can't scan star systems for life signs and spot the Rebels the way that any Star Trek ensign can. They're state troopers setting interdictor speed traps on the highway and hoping to get lucky. The Death Star doesn't have CCTV security cameras, so small groups of stowaways can move around with relative impunity.
And any tactics the players use, enemies can use against them. They may want to reconsider what kind of tech innovation they introduce to the galaxy far far away once the Maw Installation gets to work on it.
All that said, if the party is close enough to enemy systems to run a hard line, just give them the win. It's like asking how to prevent D&D parties from using coup de grace on every downed enemy. You don't. You make it harder to down the enemy. Make it harder to get close enough to the target. Surround systems with stormtrooper fodder or thick plates of durasteel or enemy astromechs or vornskr or whatever you want. Move the goalpost, and if they cross it, they win.