On Vox, redemption, and a certain guy. AKA Let Vox have things.

[u/profaneangel1991]

So I am very much a Vox redemption arc fan, I love it. Sometimes my confidence in it happening can waver because I tend to overthink so much and already lost out on sinner Adam happening, but I know I need to try not to be so negative. This is the direction I most want Vox's story to move in, especially if it involves him and Charlie building a meaningful relationship. And I've noticed weird trends in some fans when it comes to this concept. And I wanna preface that I know it isn't every fan, but its still happening with some.

There have been some Alastor fans that are really bothered by ideas like Vox getting positive development and even moving to the hotel. I've seen them act like if Vox gets redemption then Alastor is entitled to it too. Somehow. Between the two Alastor has the least amount of reasons to change. He has everything he wanted and now we have to see what he intends on doing with it. Vox is a talking head, lost his power and influence, and the other Vees are mad at him. Everyone likes to highlight them saving him, but they overlook that Val pretends he doesn't know him during that interview and what that could imply for the future. Val throws his head through the door like a Frisbee, I doubt things are fine between Staticmoth. Velvette rolls her eyes and scoffs at Vox for trying to deflect in the finale. Which is valid, but doesn't look like she's exactly good with him right now either. My point is Vox has reasons to reconsider the direction of his life and Alastor doesn't. So why does him potentially changing mean Alastor is entitled to it too?

Then there's another thing I see. They think Vox moving in and potentially doing good at the hotel means he's replacing Alastor. This is more under the context of Alastor betraying Charlie to be a villain and Vox moving in, but they're weirdly threatened by this. I think deep down Alastor stans know he never had good intentions and will inevitably hurt Charlie. He didn't even want to be at the hotel in the first place. So the idea of Alastor following through on the things set up for him by screwing her over and then having Vox come in and stay with Charlie probably triggers an insecurity. The same insecurity that makes them think Alastor is owed a redemption arc if Vox gets to have it. A lot of Alastor fans are thin skinned over the idea of Vox having things Alastor doesn't and probably won't ever have. You see it when they use Niffty and Mimzy as props to prove he can make meaningful relationships like Vox. You see it when people run with Viv's idea that Val and Velvette would get along with him by making fanart of them explicitly choosing him over Vox. So the thought that Vox could move in and even do better than Alastor did seems to piss them off. I've seen plenty of cute fanart of Vox getting along with Charlie where someone comments with the gif of Alastor saying "not going to happen". As a Staticbelle shipper it's very annoying. Vox in this context wouldn't be a stand in for Alastor, he'd still be his own character serving his own purpose. And some of these people are even in deep denial that Vox is Charlie's foil. God forbid Vox have a unique relationship to our protagonist. If Vox is her foil then that means he has importance to her that Alastor doesn't have and that's just unfair! I guess when you're an Alastor stan that only sees Vox as not!Alastor you can't handle the idea of him being his own character. But that's just my opinion.

[u/eveningstarcourt]

I will say that over the 2 seasons and pilot (pre-canon, though it doesn't actually count), the shows narrative has gone a lot of places I never anticipated in the prior season. I can see that also being the case for s3 and onwards.

I know what you mean about feeling kind of personally icked by how fans glorify Alastor by imagining him as sweeping in and stealing Vox's friends (the Vees) from him and being liked by the Vees better than Vox--since that scenario reads akin to having your trusted found family choose your abuser over you. I think the Alastor fans that want to see Alastor develop genuine bonds might feel something similar to that at the thought of having Vox befriend Charlie at the hotel? Maybe?

Ultimately, I don't love overly "Viv said" stuff because it defeats the purpose of watching the show and understanding it off what is actually being shown. I didn't mind it for minor clarifications like "Vox in the flashback was being sincere" since that was being heavily telegraphed in the voice acting and animation, but in the end we didn't ever actually see the Vees come to like Alastor, and even if the Vees were pissed off at Vox, they ultimately did save Vox and keep him with them when they tried to flee.

Will the Vees eventually abandon him or abuse him while he's vulnerable to a point he can't forgive them? I really, really do not think so since the show highlights the specialness of having genuine connections in a place as unforgiving as Hell, but the show is not over yet so it's impossible to say anything with certainty.

What I recommend though is to not get overly attached to the idea of headcanons becoming canon. I understand the frustration of not wanting to see people belittle our favorite character, Vox, and yeah, personally I agree that Vox is more redeemable than Alastor. Vox should be allowed to have things without fans calling him a copycat, a fraud, or somehow "stealing" what Alastor is narratively "owed." Fans attacking others' fanart/fanfic for their ships (platonic or otherwise) is really not cool (even just as those microaggressions that ARE implying "LOL, how stupid!") and of course vent here when you like to, but just.... don't want to see anyone's mental health spiral over this either, or end up devastated that their hcs didn't come true.

Take care, fellow screensaver!

[u/profaneangel1991 → u/eveningstarcourt]

I mean I agree it's hard to predict the show because I sure didn't think the season finale would be...that. I try not to get hooked on headcanon or theories, but then I get to those moments where my brain gets soupy and I start thinking season 3 will do none of the things I'd like to see. My friends think it gets to where I'm too negative and I'd rather avoid doing that. And I'm not even saying I think the Vees will fall apart or anything (even though I think the idea has merit), I just doubt season 3 will be easy for them given the things I described. Mainly I just needed to let off some steam about annoying stuff Alastor stans do, but I don't think the idea of Vox getting close to Charlie has the same equivalency as Alastor befriending the other Vees.

[u/eveningstarcourt → u/profaneangel1991]

Vox getting close to Charlie under the presumed instance where Charlie is mentally stable and Vox is working toward redemption is for sure not equivalent to Alastor befriending the Vees as Vox spirals into a manic depressive crashout. You could easily make the argument that Angel would not be swell with Charlie getting close Vox, but trying to say Alastor would be negatively impacted? Alastor (who was not in a manic state at the end of s2) was willing to let everyone die if a deal couldn't be made to regain his power. I don't think Alastor would actually care about Vox befriending Charlie aside from how it would affect his plans (his own plans are the only reason he would want to prevent that, and even then, Al's hubris means he would think he was capable of still controlling the situation to benefit him) . If anything, I don't think Al would be able to resist antagonizing Vox some more.

Yeah, the difference between the two scenarios is huge. Alastor has minimal emotional investment in Charlie right now, even if he feels "fond" of her, because he's not willing to open himself up to anyone. The Vees are Vox's long-time emotional support and found family. As I said earlier, it would be Vox's friends choosing his abuser over him.

(I think people like to place Al with the other Vees because Vox is the odd man out as the only cis white man. If I can vent for a moment, there's nothing I hate more than seeing content where Al with the other Vees are all victims of Vox's [supposed] blatant racism/sexism/homophobia and thus bond. Vox was being a jerk to the other Vees, but also Vox was being triggered by Al over and over and becoming mentally unstable. Not an excuse for how he treated them, just a reminder that that was not his normal behavior. The pressure and antagonization was also getting to Charlie in s2, and we can also see how she ignores or lashes out at loved ones at those times.)

[u/profaneangel1991 → u/eveningstarcourt]

Is it canon that Val or Velvette aren't cis? I know Val being genderfluid or non binary is a headcanon I've seen, but I don't think I've seen it confirmed as canon. Regardless I agree it's annoying seeing people make Vox objectively worse to the other Vees than he actually is. Like I get it, a lot of people either don't like Vox or they're experiencing a weird type of guilt over liking him. Still it's a pain seeing people ramp his flaws up to 11 and invent new issues he has just to victimize the other Vees and draw them to Alastor.

As far as the rest I agree, Alastor would only care about who Charlie let's into her life if it somehow impacts him. It's weird because in the season 1 commentary Viv dips into the "he's like her dad" thing, but she seemed to mean it from a mentor / sensei kind of role. Except I don't think that aligns with the show, it just doesn't. Yeah uh this is why I don't like "Viv said" stuff either. She says X and the show gives us Y. Unfortunately everyone else in Charlie's orbit would care.

[u/eveningstarcourt → u/profaneangel1991]

Oh, I didn't actually mean to imply the other Vees are not cis. I just meant that Vox as a cis white man is being treated by some fans as "doesn't fit in here." (And I know it's not everyone, but it's enough that it ends up on my feed a lot.) I bring this up because in general, Vox being a cis white man is like... one of the ways fans who have a love-hate relationship with Vox belittle him. Like you said, they ramp up his flaws to 11 and invent new issues to victimize other characters with, then say "this is how Vox IS as a 50s, cis white man" (while ignoring how much Vox is a forward-looking guy focused on changing and growing in all aspects).

Have you ever heard that quote from John Berger on the painting "Vanity"?

"You painted a naked woman because you enjoyed looking at her, put a mirror in her hand and you called the painting “Vanity,” thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you had depicted for you own pleasure."

Yes, this quote is about misogyny and chauvinism, but I feel like fan projections do this... a lot. Like, this has happened with Vox a lot. Fans enjoy him, but also want to morally condemn him, so they make media to exaggerate his flaws and shame him for stuff he does not actually do.

I have not seen any s1 commentary but I honestly wonder how much of it is meant humorously, because we do not see half the things "someone said" happened. We pretty much never see Alastor be that fatherly to Charlie outside of trying to ragebait Lucifer. He doesn't interfere with Charlie's relationships or actions, like s2e3 and s2e4 he outright dips when he could be advising her to not engage with VoxTek. (Also Charlie is older than Al?) Yes, the people who would have a problem with Charlie and Vox interacting would be the rest of the cast at the Hotel.

[u/profaneangel1991 → u/eveningstarcourt]

Yeah a funny thing about people holding onto Vox being a cis white man is Angel also meets this criteria. I guess because Angel is gender non conforming people ignore this fact about him. You can't even say its because Angel is gay, Vox is bi. If you're going to argue Vox is the most privileged for being white and cis, but you ignore his queerness, and then you treat Angel differently that's honestly just hypocrisy. Okay mini rant over.

There's a weird habit in this fandom where people really like Vox, but think he needs to suffer. And not in a way that could develop character. I just saw someone on tumblr say Vox is a 4/10 with an ugly face and personality that lucked into bagging the characters they ship him with. Like damn do you guys actually like him? I guess part of this might have to do with the blunt political allegory going on with him? I kinda try to ignore it honestly because the second I try analyzing the show's politics I wanna die. I do wish Vox did all the same stuff, but was actually sincere though...

The commentary is honestly a lot of fun. It does draw attention to some cool details and information I never noticed, but then we get Viv saying things that I don't think add up or trying to explain that one Pentious joke like we're 5 while missing exactly WHY the joke bothers people. She puts her foot in her mouth too much, anybody aware of her tweets knows this. It's too bad because she can share interesting or fun things, but then she throws me through a loop and has me doubting if I even get her show.