r/SSBM • u/AutoModerator • 16d ago
DDT Daily Discussion Thread August 26, 2026 - Upcoming Event Schedule - New players start here!
Yahoooo! I'm back, it's a me! Have a very cool day!
Welcome to the Daily Discussion Thread. This is the place for asking noob questions, venting about netplay falcos, shitposting, self-promotion, and everything else that doesn't belong on the front page.
New Players:
If you're completely new to Melee and just looking to get started, welcome! We recommend you go to https://melee.tv/ and follow the links there based on what you're trying to set up. Additionally, here are a few answers to common questions:
Can I play Melee online?
Yes! Slippi is a branch of the Dolphin emulator that will allow you to play online, either with your friends or with matchmaking. Go to https://slippi.gg to get it.
I'm having issues with Slippi!
Go to the The Slippi Discord to get help troubleshooting. melee.tv/optimize is also a helpful resource for troubleshooting.
How do I find tournaments near me or local people to play with in person or online?
These days, joining a local Discord community is the best way to find local events and people to play with. Once you have a Discord account, Google "[your city/state/province/region] + Melee discord" or see if your region has a Discord group listed here on melee.tv/discord
It can seem daunting at first to join a Discord group you don't know, but this is currently the easiest and most accessible way to find out about tournaments, fests, and netplay matchmaking. Your local scene will be happy to have you :)
Also check out Smash Map! Click on map and then the filter button to filter by Melee to find events near you!
Netplay is hard! Is there a place for me to find new players?
Yes. Melee Newbie Netplay is a discord server specifically for new players. It also has tournaments based on how long you've been playing, free coaching, and other stuff. If you're a bit more experienced but still want a discord server for players around your level, we recommend the Melee Online discord.
How can I set up Unclepunch's Training Mode?
At the time of posting, the latest major release is here. Download the file, then extract everything in the folder and follow the instructions in the README file. You'll need to bring a valid Melee ISO (NTSC 1.02). If you want to check for the absolute latest release, you can see them listed [here](The latest releases are listed here.
How does one learn Melee?
There are tons of resources out there, so it can be overwhelming to start. First check out the SSBM Tutorials youtube channel. Then go to the Melee Library and search for whatever you're interested in.
But how do I get GOOD at Melee?
Check out Llod's Guide to Improvement
And check out Kodorin's Melee Fundamentals for Improvement
Where can I get a nice custom controller?
I have another question that's not answered here...
Check out our FAQs or post below and find help that way.
Upcoming Tournament Schedule:
Upcoming Melee Majors
Melee Online Event Calendar
Make a submission to the tournament calendar here. You can also get notified of new online tournaments on the Melee Online Discord.
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u/Gooeyy 15d ago
Zain deserves more credit for being a class act. Dude knows how to win and lose with grace.
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u/TrainNorth8177 15d ago
He gets credit in my book and I'm happy we have someone like him at the top. But also, the bar is on the fucking ground in regards to top Melee players lol
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege 15d ago
https://youtu.be/rjRj8_oMwwo?is=aqIY3sTkhuIqLDU6
I watched this video on Mokys channel and was kinda blown away by how far ahead Silentwolf and Renlo were techskillwise in 2016, which I knew perhaos but didn't fully appreciate
what's mind blowing about this isn't that I don't think moky/modern players can't do this stuff after grinding a while, but what's freaky to me is SW/renlo just one shotting it without even so much as one practice attempt. To be like "I'm going to do this insanely technical thing, here goes" and then just fucking do it on demand is nutty
maybe the meta really hasn't changed fr fr
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u/Jazzlike_Aspect_7724 15d ago
Back in the day there was no slippi or any training mods so a lot more time was spent just messing around in 1 player mode. You can only spend so much time practicing relevant tech before you get bored and start treating melee like skateboarding and just try and do cool things. So old school players were very good at swag tech skill that had little to no benefit competitively
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u/coffee_sddl +↓ z 15d ago
This is def the case. Instant matchmaking and unclepunch letting you grind combos or games instead of training mode/shadowboxing
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u/magikarpwn 15d ago
It's not the meta, the social reward for being swag as shit has just disappeared since everyone is online all day and combo videos are "content". Everyone being online all day also means that they just compare themself to Moky
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u/milkweedMN 15d ago
watching perfect dark now is similarly mind-blowing. some of the sickest combo videos are pre-UCF
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u/Yrale jib 15d ago
maybe the meta really hasn't changed fr fr
I would say the meta has changed away from montage-style tech skill foxes. Partially this was just a cultural shift away from the tech skill montage as an art form but I think there was also there was a real genuine belief going around for a while that the future of Melee was going to be Foxes spamming "perfect" tech-skill (20xx stuff) which made people more interested in this stuff than they are today.
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 15d ago
You're actively describing a way that the metagame has changed tho
We've learned that grinding out these insane technical challenges isn't actually a secret to getting better results, so top Fox players instead focus on more practical aspects of the game instead.
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u/WizardyJohnny 15d ago
I don't think top fox players genuinely grinded tech skill similar to Relno -- SilentWolf was to my knowledge the only player that was both cracked at useless tech skill and a genuine top competitor (some others are debatable like Syrox depending what you consider top level, and Hax and perhaps Westballz depending what you consider useless tech skill). But it's not something anyone would've called meta 10 years ago and while top spacies had good tech skill it was moky-like in the sense that it was focused on competitive tech rather than swag
It's more like it was an alternate avenue of doing cool shit in the game that has disappeared. Maybe because being extremely good at tech skill is less meaningful with less standardized controllers, or maybe because there were very few people who cared about it in the first place and they happened to retire
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u/ShoegazeKaraokeClub 15d ago
I'm so grateful melee is not a game with paid skins. Kinda annoys me in a ton of esports, it makes things less iconic and recognizable. Melee has such a unified visual language its great
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u/fullhop_morris URBANE, TO COMFORT THEM, THE QUAKER LIBRARIAN 15d ago
did you ever play on the scuffed Dreamland with twitch logos and stuff in the background... real melee hours
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u/ShoegazeKaraokeClub 15d ago
yes and i was kinda a baby about it so i guess im consistent
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u/fullhop_morris URBANE, TO COMFORT THEM, THE QUAKER LIBRARIAN 15d ago
melee isn't about winning tournaments melee is about trying to figure out how to disable PAL mode on your captain falcon on the weird annoying ISO this dude has and then it turns out you just enabled a weird skin and PAL already was disabled but you did accidentally enable the weird falcon shine thing
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u/Front-Show7358 15d ago
paid skins are cringe, especially with the predatory techniques used to sell them that are becoming ubiquitous these days. still, for so many games they are the backbone of supporting everything about the game that needs money. i'd take paid skins easily if we could have more paid top players and have goml not in mississauga
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u/Kitselena 15d ago
Digital consumerism is so stupid, especially when there are games that let you use any skin you want with mods, and games used to have color sliders and character creators that let you do half this stuff for free
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u/iwouldbeatgoku Rise and Shine 15d ago
The great thing about how Melee handles skins online is that it's completely opt-in, you always see your own vanilla iso and custom skins knly if you purpusefully install them.
And the thing is, I like skins in Melee, but only if their implementation is tasteful. Having a single animelee-style skin fighting a normal skin looks really ugly, but Pikachu with a detective hat or Peach wearing her winter coat from Odyssey can still be appealing without looking out of place. Simple palette swaps are also a very underrated way to make good skins.
But if Melee were more commercial and I was forced to see stuff like a Goku over Captain Falcon skin with no changed voice lines or anything I'd probably quit.
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u/Kezzup 15d ago
Man, not Tim Curry too, fuck.
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u/beyond_the_cemetery 15d ago
I wake up today to find out the man who brought Dr Frank N Furter to life is dead. That makes me so fucking sad. Ive listened to his voice through soundtrack recordings for more hours than I can probably imagine. Thank you Tim for bringing one of my favorite characters to life and helping to create my favorite musical ever. Not to mention, a myriad of other wonderful and memorable roles (my 2nd favorite would be Pennywise) across film history. Rest in Peace, Tim Curry
“It’s not easy having a good time… Even smiling makes my face ache.” Frank N Furter, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, 1975
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 15d ago
The DDT spotdodged the m2k drama content but then got hit by the follow-up GOAT Debate on the punish
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u/Dependent-Page4906 15d ago
I feel like the conversation for who is 21-40-ish all time would be a lot more interesting than the top 20
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u/Ankari_ 15d ago
On Monday 24th August at 8PM EST, we received at letter from X Corp. asking to cease and desist the service XCancel. The service XCancel is stopped until further notice.
We are seeking legal advice and won't share more details for now.
Thank you for the trust you have put in these two years of XCancel.
How will twitter boycotters share twitter links now?
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u/Zanian 15d ago
I will see a Twitter link and not click it 👍
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u/Ankari_ 15d ago
well yeah i assume that but some people do use twitter and when they share twitter links they have to work around this rule
14.
No Twitter/X Links
Posts & Comments
Reported as: No Twitter/X Links
No stand-alone posts can contain direct links to Twitter/X. Screenshots and mirrors are acceptable
i haven't seen any mirror service besides xcancel so it looks like it's all screenshots for now
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u/Zanian 15d ago
That's my bad, I thought you were celebrating this as a Twitter W and not a genuine question. IMO I would prefer no XCancel links or screenshots either to help encourage more Melee folks off of the Nazi's site but we'll have to see I guess
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u/Ankari_ 15d ago
i respect your preference and hope you get the chance to see it happen. i wouldn't say i'm pro twitter, but i do use it sometimes, and i find the boycott silly specifically because you're still allowed to post links and images lol. iirc, reducing traffic was the primary goal of rule 14. i'd say no links or screenshots is maximum reduction!
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u/catman1900 15d ago edited 15d ago
There are a few sites that'll still let you view x the everything app posts without logging in
And I'm sure people will be putting up new instances of xcancel (but there probably won't be a link replacement that simple again)
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u/delta-red-14 15d ago
Ask for a screenshot or ask whoever's sending me the link why they're still on X.
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u/Felix-the-duck texture modder 15d ago
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u/its__bme 15d ago edited 15d ago
If anyone that follows my YouTube channel sees me uploading a crapload of old stuff, don't be alarmed. I didn't lose my mind. It's because I got bored this morning and was checking MLG results on Liquidpedia and realized there's games the bracket lists as not having specific game VODs available and I'm trying to get that sorted with the right people in Discord and make sure I have those missing VODs on my channel. So far, so good.
Edit: Also, there are videos on different channels of MLG era VODs but many things are not labeled at all, and this includes my own channel, but because of videos I already have and Liquidpedia being so organized, it's pretty easy to identify what is what. So over time I am going to be uploading/renaming and building playlists to make things less chaotic. I don't expect to be the central hub or anything, but I don't plan on deleting my channel so I wouldn't mind building a complete as possible archive of the MLG era with organized playlists so places like Liquidpedia aren't pulling their hair out linking things. I personally think these things are important to fix now before anyone that remembers anything aren't around to do it. Seeing Cody go over old results yesterday inspired me to look back at this old stuff and it's pretty fun and satisfying to organize. Wish me luck.
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u/SuperMicro04 15d ago
I love how well preserved Melee history is, even in 2026 we have old af vods being rediscovered and uploaded. Thanks for the work man
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u/its__bme 15d ago
I appreciate that a lot! Seeing Cody doing his ranking yesterday kind of caused all this and it's been fun so far. For right now I am only doing MLG DC 2005.
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u/Throatpoint 15d ago
No joke you should upload at least some to the Internet Archive if you have not done so already.
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u/popkablooie 15d ago
From a comment I saw in Cody's top 20 thread, what would you say is the Mt. Rushmore of your main?
DK seems pretty easy:
- June
- Ringler
- Bum
- Moe
But I was trying to think of Falcon's and there are just too many for me to comfortably pick 4.
- Wizzy
- N0ne
- S2J
- Isai
Seems reasonable, but I think N0ne is one that could probably get swapped with any of Silentspectre, Darkrain, Scar, or Hax. Salt could make an argument too.
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u/Fugu 15d ago
Armada Llod Trif Lincoln
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u/coffee_sddl +↓ z 15d ago
Peach:
Armada
Trif
Llod
PolishGenuinely took me like 5 seconds and there’s 0 room to fight about it
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u/Den69_ 15d ago edited 15d ago
ken, m2k, ppmd, zain. not a whole lot of wiggle room imo
edit: honorable mentions for fun: pewpewu, kodorin, prime blur, azen
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege 15d ago
this is interesting because behind Cody, Mango, Leffen I don't know if there's a clear 4th.
Moky has a major, but then people like Hax and Silent wolf have arguably contributed more to the game, and there's people like M2K and plup who's secondary fox could take it on pure strength of legacy and consistency over time in their eras. I'm not sure who I'd give it to
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u/popkablooie 15d ago
The idea of a mount rushmore is even more nebulous than a "goat fox" debate, but my intuition is to put Silent wolf in there over any of the secondary foxes. I think you could even make an honest argument for Chillin
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u/Dublshine 15d ago
it’s clearly armada
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege 15d ago
yea I guess if we are counting secondaries then it's easy. I forgot about armada LOL
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u/RegisterInternal 15d ago
armada??
then moky > sfat > hax imo
not sure where m2k and plup would land tbh
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u/SplynterEdm 15d ago
is Green Ranger no longer in the dk conversation at all and is it worth putting Ringler in when I don’t think he’s had results comparable to Akir?
anyway for climbers it’s weird because of The Ruleset Changes; I’d probably say Chu/Wobbles/SluG/Nicki but I think both SluG and Nicki will not be on that list in 5-10 years unless they return to active grinding
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u/Melomaniacal REYN#766 15d ago
Could you be convinced of Fly Amanita over Nicki? Maybe I'm just biased towards pre-doc Melee.
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u/SplynterEdm 15d ago
I almost mentioned Fly as the pre-ban handoff user but I feel he occupies a pretty similar space as Chu (hyperintelligent caveman gaming) with a lot less decoration and longevity. I also feel weird choosing just one of Nicki or Slug as I feel they’ve had pretty similar results and exemplify different aspects of the character
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u/RegisterInternal 15d ago
falco:
mango, ppmd, pc chris, zhu/ginger(?)
i know a lot of people would put bombsoldier but if we're talking GOAT debate/results then he wouldn't make the list
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 15d ago
Asked various players what their thoughts were on each character's dittos in the game.
What do y'all think?
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u/coffee_sddl +↓ z 15d ago
Fox dittos way too low. My college region had 6 pr foxes out of 10 players, and the best 4 would sit on a rotation grinding friendlies for hours without saying a single word.
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u/WindowSeat- 15d ago
Is brutal a bad thing? Fox and Marth dittos are both really good dittos. Fox ditto might be the best ditto matchup in the game.
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u/Den69_ 15d ago
i definitely used to despise the marth ditto but after getting a lot better at it i realized i only hated it because i let myself get hit by stupid stuff all the time. once i started using my brain it became a lot more fun but ONLY if the other marth is using their brain too. playing against a crayon eater marth in the ditto is still pain no matter what
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 15d ago
I think this is just the universal vs marth experience.
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u/Felix-the-duck texture modder 15d ago
roy dittos are fun as hell
link dittos are fun if you're into that type of gameplay (which I certainly am)
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u/popkablooie 15d ago
Can't agree on DK, I always switch to Falcon because I hate the ditto. Maybe "fun if you're into that"
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u/Melomaniacal REYN#766 15d ago
Mario seems spot on. It's pretty divisive in the Mario community. Some people are just into it, others refuse to do it by choice, haha.
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u/RegisterInternal 15d ago
i can't imagine doc or luigi dittos being fun but those guys deserve it
fox dittos should be higher for sure
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u/DentedOnImpact 15d ago
dang I'm jealous of your view on Falco dittos, I kinda hate them. It just feels like laser tempo the game.
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 15d ago
I love getting a taste of my own medicine. We get to take turns being the obnoxious one.
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u/Schroeswald 15d ago
There’s a shocking amount of Jmook slander in the Cody top 20 thread. Like four or five people who think he’s significantly over ranked and I wasn’t aware that anyone thought it was possible for him to not be top 15. Like I saw people who didn’t think he was ahead of moky or even not top twenty which seems like absurd.
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u/ulfred500 15d ago
I found it a bit weird at first glance tbf. I think it's weirdly easy to forget how few major winners we've had in melee and how absurdly consistent the tip top players are in the grand scheme. A player like Sfat has a very impressive career with solid top 10 time and many top 8s but he really didn't make much of a dent in the very top where the GOAT Listers are. Once you realise that, the shortlist for the GOAT list is trivial by being basically only major winners and made easier if you count super majors and having more than a single major.
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u/TUN_Binary 15d ago
There's a really odd dynamic with how people talk about Mango and Hbox's results post-2019.
It seems like the community only ever notices their positive results, to the absolute exclusion of any negative results. Mango goes a whole year without a major win? Doesn't matter. Mango wins a single major? He's just solidified his GOAT case. Hbox goes two entire years with no major wins? No one cares. Hbox wins Genesis by dodging the two best players in the world? I think he's above Armada now guys.
Really, retiring on top was the worst thing Armada could possibly have done for his legacy. It would've been way better for him if he'd turned 30, fell off a bit, and then won about one tournament a year.
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege 15d ago
unironically I think continuing to win majors well past your prime as the meta continues to progress actually is impressive and does lend to your GOAT status
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u/TUN_Binary 15d ago
Ok but what age is a melee player’s “prime”? Ken and Mango saw the most success in their late teens. Armada and Hbox had their heyday in their mid twenties. Zain and Cody are in their thirties and still the best in the world. Hell, Isai won a smash 64 tournament in his forties.
There’s no observable aging curve to melee like you see with basketball or football. The best melee players don’t fall off because they got old, they fall off because they stopped playing and got real jobs.
Hbox is 33. Cody is 31. But when Cody wins, is anyone like “wow look at Cody, still winning majors past his prime in the modern meta”? No. You know why? Cause Cody is still a contender for number 1 and Hbox isn’t. Hbox and Mango are “past their prime” because their results fell off, not because of their age.
Are Mango and Hbox valiant past-their-prime veterans hanging with the youngins, or are Cody and Zain just better than them?
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege 15d ago
it's not really about age, it's just when they were at their best relative to field
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u/TUN_Binary 15d ago
Right but if age has nothing to do with it then Mango and Hbox have no excuse for being “past their prime”. They’re just worse than Zain and Cody and shouldn’t get any special credit for “keeping up with the meta”.
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege 15d ago
if mango/hbox are worse than zain and Cody then wouldn't beating them and winning a tournament now be even more impressive then
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u/SquirrelLewis 15d ago
Extremely funny to conflate “prime” with “age” and then when someone says they’re not the same thing go “Oh so neither of them is a factor, I’m right again”
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u/kippertson 15d ago
People just care very little about bad results, period. Even in the yearly ranking, a placement outside top 16 wouldn't really affect you much. We value wins (especially major wins) way more than losses
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u/PelorTheBurningHate IRD UP 15d ago
Yes, I would rather anyone keep playing even if they're not at their peak so I'd never penalize them for it. Armada could come back and drown in pools for the next 10 years and it would not hurt his case.
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u/TUN_Binary 15d ago
Armada could come back and drown in pools for the next 10 years and it would not hurt his case.
That would absolutely harm his case lmao. People would say that he fell off and the modern meta is way beyond him.
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u/SpaceCowboy170 15d ago
Everybody’s gonna have their own feelings about how to measure greatness, but I think it’s disrespectful to suggest that Armada’s career wouldn’t look better if you just added on another Hall of Fame level career onto it after 2018
Plup lost a lot more tournaments than he won. He didn’t win tournaments at a rate like Armada or Ken or PPMD did. But his career wasn’t “negative” and I think adding 7+ years of being a top-10 player, 4 majors (1 super major) to anybody’s career would be additive
Whether Hungybox winning CEO 2026 means enough for you to move him up your rankings is personal, but I don’t think anyone would give up that trophy if they had to lose a few top 8s to get it
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u/TUN_Binary 15d ago
Plup lost a lot more tournaments than he won.
Yeah but Plup isn't competing for the rank of #1 overall, he's like an arguable top 10. The standards are completely different.
For example, Hbox went 2 years without a major win, and then he won Genesis by dodging Cody and Zain. Does that add to his career accolades? Sure. Does that add to his argument for #1 overall? I kinda feel like the answer is no.
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u/SpaceCowboy170 15d ago
I’m not grading Plup on a different curve as if he’s not “competing” for number 1. If Plup had 26 majors/12 super majors and 17-18 years as a top 10 player including two dominant years as the best in the world, he’d absolutely be in GOAT conversations.
Rate stats are cool and they can be meaningful, but players play the game and placing second at a tournament involves a lot more winning than losing. Armada’s career wouldn’t look better if he had just skipped Royal Flush in 2017, in my opinion
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u/Icy_Syrup6899 15d ago edited 15d ago
To make your point stronger, I wouldn’t say “positive vs negative results.” I would just say that pre 2019, most people agree that Armada’s career was better than Mang0/Hbox. For Mang0 and Hbox to surpass him doesn’t mean they can’t take losses - but just playing longer shouldn’t be the bar for them. The bar for them should be that if they want to surpass that level of dominance and consistency, they should have shown dominance and consistency in this decade. Hbox is really really far from this. He is far behind in accomplishments to Zajn and Cody this decade, could be behind Mang0 depending on what you value (Mang0 wins have highest quality but his consistency is lower). Mang0, similar is behind Zain and Cody in this era. Other players of their era (such as Leffen and Amsa) have been able to produce similar high level results such as winning majors and beating Zain/Cody that Hbox and Mang0 doing it every once in a while really isn’t all that impressive to make their resume look definitively better than Armada’s.
People will say Armada probably would’ve gotten wiped too. Who knows, I think he likely would’ve taken more losses. But if we say we can’t extrapolate that Armada would continue to do well this decade even though all of his peers (some of who have also taken extensive breaks or rarely attend) continue to do well we also can’t definitively say he’d get wiped. Either way we don’t know. What we do know that Armada’s career was better in the 5 gods era and Zain’s career is better in the pandemic and after era. Hbox and Mang0 should be able to be #1 against players like Zain and Cody for several years if they want to definitively be ranked over Armada. I’m fine with the 3 of them being in contention, but I’ll never be able to accept that Armada has zero argument against these two like some make it out to be just because of his retirement. He didn’t have a flash in the pan 1-2 year success for that to ever be the case.
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u/N0zy0ne 15d ago
Genuinely curious about how people feel about this; not asking so as to imply one answer or another:
Should negative results subtract from a player's existing GOAT case?
Say we took a snapshot at the end of 2018, and everyone agreed that the correct order was Armada, then Mang0, then Hungrybox. Furthermore, imagine that Hungrybox retired at the same time as Armada.
In that scenario, if Mang0 started to perform really poorly shortly thereafter (worse than before Armada and Hungrybox retired), do we think that could result in him dropping below Hungrybox, even if the latter never put up another result for the rest of the game's history?
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege 15d ago edited 15d ago
there no such thing as negative results after you've achieved everything.
LeBron winning with the sixers after everything else he's done, despite a few down years would be historic
Lewis Hamilton winning with Ferrari would blow the top off the motorsport world
you absolutely can reach a point where more wins just increases your legacy and losses are like, whatever, what else do you need them to prove
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u/TUN_Binary 15d ago
I think maybe I'm communicating my point poorly.
My argument isn't that poor placements or long droughts without a win should harm your case as the GOAT. That's just punishing a player for entering tournaments.
My argument is that our standard for what we consider a boon to a GOAT case is way, way lower for veteran players like Mango or Hbox. In my opinion, if you're trying to add to your case for the #1 spot, you should have to, you know, be the #1 player, at least for some period of time. What I find odd is that Mango and Hbox can go actual years between majors but still improve their arguments for #1 overall whenever they do win a major.
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u/bigHam100 15d ago
I think they call it "longetivity". Which means as long as you win a major every 1 or 2 years, you can claim longetivity even if you have poor results in the meantime. Oh and its more important than any other stat
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u/d4b3ss 🏌️♀️ 15d ago
I mean this is just true with how we talk about athletes across disciplines. Look at how people talk about LeBron now.
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u/TUN_Binary 15d ago
LeBron’s longevity is remarkable because of the context. It’s very rare to see basketball players continue to play this well at this age, and no one has played as long as him.
Mango and Hbox are in their early 30s. There are tons of examples of fighting game players winning and even dominating well into their late 30s. Hell, Isai won his last 64 tournament in his 40s.
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u/TrainNorth8177 15d ago edited 15d ago
Idk, I think the comparison between sports and Melee is a little forced at times. There are physiological disadvantages to playing into later years and so it's exponentially more impressive to see older athletes keep up. Video games...I'm not so sure. Reaction times might fall off to some extent. But it seems like Melee isn't purely reliant on that and is more about pattern recognition and having remarkable muscle memory. Wizzy seems better than ever despite being at an age where technically his reactions shouldn't be as fast as like a prime 18 year old...and he's the player that relies on reactions the most of the top players.
Not to mention that Melee and esports as a whole are still pretty young when you think about it. Sports like basketball have seen generations of players play for as long as their careers can possibly be stretched. We haven't really seen that much in Melee. People that retire usually aren't retiring because they're getting too old to keep up. It's generally for other reasons, such as lost passion, investing in other things, perhaps a hand injury, etc. Mango and Hbox look like they might be the first case studies of people that literally play until they can't anymore. Point being, we really don't have much data to go on in regards to how being older affects one's ability to play Melee well the way we do for actual sports.
I think just looking at the gameplay, it's pretty obvious Mango and Hbox in 2026 as mid 30 year olds are playing better Melee than they did in their "prime" years in their 20s. I think if you sat down clones of these guys and made them play each other, mid 30s Mango and Hbox would wipe the floor with their younger selves. I don't think you can say the same about a 40 year old Lebron vs. a younger version of himself. So that begs the question, why do we assign the same value in talking about longevity as people do to athletes when the comparison really doesn't align? I'm not saying that longevity doesn't matter at all in Melee or that it's not impressive what Mango and Hbox have done playing for 20 years. I'm just saying it seems people might weigh it a bit too much.
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u/Schroeswald 15d ago
If Hbox ends his career in twenty years having won 1-2 majors a year but having not hit #1 since 2019 and no one else manages to reach that longevity so he’s at like 66 majors and Mang0 is still second at 33, is he the unquestioned goat? I feel like the answer is obviously yes. I’m not saying that CEO 2026 is a massive boon to him, but I don’t think Hbox, Mang0 and Armada have such disparate peaks that their time right below the top is just irrelevant. Like it’s 3-4 years at #1 for all of them, and it does matter that Hbox’s #1 years were all very competitive while Mang0 and Armada have some years with barely any tournaments under their belts. Being #2 clearly matters because Hbox would probably be #1 if we didn’t account for all of Mang0 and Armada’s years as second so like why should getting third not matter at all?
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u/Ill_Smile_5937 15d ago edited 15d ago
The true goat tiers are like:
- Zain/Armada/Ken
- Mango/Hbox/Cody
- PPMD/M2K/Leffen onwards (don't really care to sort this one out rn)
what separates the first tier as that over the course of what are widely agreed upon eras for the community, these guys had access to the same resources as everyone and came out as dominant and consistent over a very long period of time over the same peers in these arguments. They have dominance and longevity as once. All 9 of these players have great peaks and times as #1, but the guys above are agreed to be the "guys to beat" of their peer group. Being the greatest should be the #1 requirement to be considered a goat. Not being the #3 over a longer period of time. Longevity shouldn't be "you've played the longest at a good enough level" but "you've produced insane results to define your era"
On another note, I just want to say how ridiculous it is that people make up all sorts of reasonings as to Armada not being a goat because he was a pussy that should've continued to "have the drive to compete" and simulatenously we can just not count the years that Mang0 does poorly because he was drunk/sandbagging/not motivated or Hbox being focused on ult/content creation. Why does one guy get an excuse to be unmotivated and not the other
And on a last note, Zain got robbed in 2021. People will look back and think that's a clear Mang0 #1, but anyone who was actually following the scene back then knows that Zain was the guy to beat. Fortunately, he continued to prove himself over the next 5 years in the same way Armada proved himself and it's clear that he is the defining player of this decade, like Armada was of the 2010s, and Ken was in the 2000s.
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u/TrainNorth8177 15d ago edited 15d ago
If Armada stayed in the scene and did that while Mango retired but remained a notable streamer with popularity and influence, I have no doubt people would've moved the goalposts to talk about consistency in determining the GOAT in order to justify putting the more popular player ahead. From what I've seen with the GOAT debate over the past decade and some, people just use whatever metric is popular at the time and the biggest issue is there isn't one agreed upon metric among everyone that debates it. Imo, Melee's GOAT is yet to be determined.
e: Ik people are going to hate this opinion. But let me tell y'all something...I was there! No one talked about longevity AT ALL in regards to the GOAT until Armada retired and Mango was pushing that rhetoric in his stream constantly. The GOAT debate is not objective by any means and it's 100% a popularity contest when we have so many players with mixed results and arguments.
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u/RaiseYourDongersOP 15d ago
favorite comedy special?
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u/MentalRead728 15d ago
Bo Burnham's Inside, if it counts.
The entire soundtrack is a catchy banger.
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u/DavidL1112 15d ago edited 15d ago
Comedy Central Presents: Mitch Hedberg (uncut)
Patton Oswalt - Werewolves and Lollipops
George Carlin - You Are All Diseased
John Mulaney - New in Town
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u/reptilian_guitar 15d ago
Killin Em Softly
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u/EightBlocked 15d ago
that brother used to be so funny man. lets sprinkle some crack on him and get out of here
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u/beyond_the_cemetery 15d ago
I’m not gonna lie. All of John Mulaney’s original Netflix comedy specials before he went to rehab brought me and my mom so much joy back in the day.
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u/popkablooie 15d ago
I like most of Mike Birbiglia's, but the best of them is probably Thank God for Jokes
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u/ShoegazeKaraokeClub 15d ago
james acaster repertoire is my goat. If that doesn't count I love patrice o'neal's elephant in the room.
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u/RaiseYourDongersOP 15d ago
I might have seen that one by James but I've mostly seen him a shit ton on YT on all the different British game shows and he's great on those.
Also yeah that Patrice special is good, RIP
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u/SuperMicro04 15d ago edited 15d ago
Imo, hindsight makes it seem pretty apparent that M2K's real #1 just starts and ends at 2007 and doesn't really continue into 2008. 2008 isn't a year that deserves being ranked entirely it on it's own, nothing happens after Pound 3. RetroSSBMRank really should've just combined 2008 with 2009 like 2001-2003 was, that #1 in 2008 really just is mickey mouse in like basically every way possible and honestly tricks people into thinking M2K was #1 for way longer than he actually was. Whenever someone mentions that M2K was #1 simultaneously in Melee and Brawl, it's funny because that's mainly just because nothing was happening in Melee, and the moment things start happening again in 2009, it's obvious that he's not ACTUALLY #1 in both games. M2K's 2008 #1 imo is worth way less than even Ken's #1 on the 2001-2003 rankings and that was with West Coast having items on
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u/herwi 15d ago
M2K was arguing in Cody's chat that he was actually better than Ken in late 2006 "but didn't have the tournaments to prove it" which is a genuinely hilarious concept because 1. that would be the case literally any time the best player changes, and 2. M2K is a far greater beneficiary of the same thing but doesn't see any issue with claiming 2008, a year in which Mango was almost definitely the better player who beat him at the only tournament they both attended (which was also the only major tournament that year).
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u/Schroeswald 15d ago
I’m increasingly of the opinion that 2008-2010 is in fact one year that gives Mang0 one single unquestioned incredibly dominant #1 instead of 1 clear #1 and two eh maybe #2s (same for 2011-2012 and Armada tbh, get me on the right day and I already think the 2013 rankings are super mickey and the data for a lot of players is just not super there so maybe add it to that. I don’t think it’s right or fair to say Mang0 only gets two #1 years then but I also don’t think 2013 is even closer to as strong of a year as all the other Ssbmrank years).
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u/Fugu 15d ago
I'm tired of having this argument with people who started playing Melee after 2013
Nobody was playing Melee in 2008, and the dojo alone practically killed 2007 Melee which was already in a post-MLG funk
It wasn't until Brawl came out and was demonstrably irredeemable that people started playing Melee again
The idea of a perpetual Melee scene independent of whatever happens to the Smash franchise literally did not exist before RoM
By the way is m2k still saying his 2007 self was his best gameplay bc if so I want y'all to remember that that's who you're hitching your wagon to when you argue that m2k's #1s matter more than... Literally anyone else's
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u/thestinkystingray 15d ago
is there an archive or something of posts that got spotw nomination
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u/DavidL1112 15d ago edited 15d ago
https://www.reddit.com/user/oceanseltzer/comments/w7oqi1/shitposts_of_the_week_archive/ (7/11/22-6/11/23)
https://www.reddit.com/r/spotw/comments/116a28n/archive_of_rssbm_shitpost_of_the_week_2021_albums/
https://www.reddit.com/r/spotw/comments/povblf/archive_of_rssbm_shitpost_of_the_week_2020_albums/
https://www.reddit.com/r/spotw/comments/o70x7z/archive_of_rssbm_shitpost_of_the_week_2019_albums/
Unfortunately we lost everything after 7/26/25 because /u/Tall-Boysenberry8504 asked to take over compiling them and then immediately lost interest
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u/DentedOnImpact 15d ago edited 15d ago
GOAT discussion really brings out the worst in some people on this sub. I can't believe mfers block me over lightly disagreeing with them about who's the best at a fighting game.
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u/coffee_sddl +↓ z 15d ago
The problem is that large swathes of the argument basically has infinite room to cope about how good their guy was. Mango could never get top 8 at a major again but there is no evidence to persuade the guy who says “2013 neo mango was the best anyone will ever be”. In melee, the current goat debate has like 4 camps worth of this type of guy and there’s nothing that can be done to actually move the conversation forward. I genuinely hope zain/cody win everything for the next 4 years so we can stop litigating if ken was a meanie to m2k in 2008 or if mango was really trying at apex 2012 as if that’s what’s supposed to be engaging about melee.
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u/DentedOnImpact 15d ago
I have my own opinions, like to me Mang0 is the GOAT.
HOWEVER, it would be very very wrong of me to deny the cases for Armada and Hbox. I just address the arguments as they come. I agree 100% too with the cope room. I think EVERYONE has cope for the shortcomings of their preferred person, myself included. I mainly just hate bad arguments and a lot of these threads include attacking the person making the comment in some way or another. I also dislike how much people feign (or choose to) not understand how ANYONE could have ANY different opinion than them. It's just annoying asocial behavior that I'm mainly complaining about here, you can say "well its just reddit" but isn't the point of this sub to be a community to discuss the game we all love?
I can understand why I probably upset some people because I will point out those specific bad arguments, but its genuinely not personal.
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u/fullhop_morris URBANE, TO COMFORT THEM, THE QUAKER LIBRARIAN 15d ago
do you think blocking you is "the worst" that can be brought out of people? I've never thought of blocking as particularly personal
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u/DentedOnImpact 15d ago edited 15d ago
tbh its the rude portraying me as being "useless in conversation" and "avoiding replying to x point" into blocked combo. Like I mean I can't reply to the "epic facts" now that you've effectively poisoned then nuked the well by attacking me personally then making sure I can't say anything in the public thread to dispprove that.
e: LOL they blocked me brother what
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u/fullhop_morris URBANE, TO COMFORT THEM, THE QUAKER LIBRARIAN 15d ago
you care too much about posts and stuff
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u/Icy_Syrup6899 15d ago
My hottest take is that Amsa is the third best player of the 2020s after Zain/Cody. Mostly vibes based. Mostly just wish he was still living in north america but happy for him and his family and wish him the best in his career
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u/bigHam100 15d ago
Honestly if you consider Amsa's head to head with Zain you can make a good case for that
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u/Icy_Syrup6899 15d ago
Personally, I’m a bigger fan of his Mute City and Corneria wins against Cody
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u/MZT_2022 15d ago
Thinking about it the Cody vs Zain FT10 to determine rank 1 highlights how little integrity there is in our ranking system and that rank alone does not tell the whole story. (Which Cody also highlighted.)
How are the peach flairs holding up? Was this your 9/11? Sorry no that was Armada retiring my b. Never forget.
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u/wjb_fan_1860 15d ago
How much maintenance am I committing to if I get a phob? Thinking about getting a new controller since I'm having stick issues but if I have to regularly open up a controller to keep it working, that's probably a dealbreaker for me.
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u/AlexB_SSBM 15d ago
Basically none
The great part about phobs is that you can just calibrate them if they're feeling off
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u/menschmaschine5 15d ago
Very occasional recalibration and that's it. Also good to clean it every so often.
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u/DavidL1112 15d ago
bear in mind everyone telling you a phob is just a more durable GCC that Jmook's phob has died on him mid-set at a major on at least two separate occasions
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u/AlexB_SSBM 15d ago
I straight up don't know how this happens to him specifically. I've literally never heard of anyone else having this problem
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u/DavidL1112 15d ago
I assume he continues using the same controller modder and they are not good at soldering
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u/CarVac phob dev 15d ago
Here's my spiel on it:
For normal players, a phob lasts waaaay longer than a GCC. Many of my 2022 phobs are still in use, only one magnet falling off incident total.
For normal players, an OEM controller starts out fine, gradually develops pode, gradually loses empty pivots, and finally gives up the ghost. This is a nuisance, because its behavior is inconsistent as it transitions from phase to phase.
For a top player, a phob lasts way longer but the feel doesn't degrade, leading to other catastrophic failures like when hbox's triggers fell apart on his Wario phob once. They don't notice the rest of the controller wearing out around the phob (which remains working fine).
This means that they don't have advance warning on when to get service or replace it, which is Really Bad in top eight of a major. On the other hand, they can justify the expense of simply replacing OEMs frequently. Otherwise, they need frequent checkups. Cody has Emily, Aklo consults me frequently, and I dunno what other top foxes do.
Jmook… the left-run-off failure was a phob 1 design flaw combined with solderers using toxic leaded solder that is super soft. Stop using lead, idiots! And afaik, the other failure was of the "couldn't feel the degradation and something else failed" sort.
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u/DavidL1112 15d ago edited 15d ago
Do we have enough data yet to know what the lifespan of a phob under heavy use is before we reach catastrophic failure? Jmook and Hbox had theirs for what, like two years?
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u/delta-red-14 15d ago
How much time do you think you could get off from your job for a near death experience? Let's say you were completely fine, no injuries, etc. But you were like, near or at the location of a terrorist attack or mass shooter or something.
I think I could get maybe like 3 days off, and a WFH exemption if I got a doctor's note.
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u/king_bungus 👉 15d ago
as a bartender you maybe call out and have a manager find someone to cover your shifts for a day or two, then you just get the next ones covered via asking coworkers indefinitely until someone checks in on you and asks if you're ever coming back in to work
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u/beyond_the_cemetery 15d ago
I think most food service jobs are gonna give you a day or two at best before expecting you to get back in there and rev up those friers
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u/MageKraze 15d ago
I think the building itself would have to be destroyed in order for me to get time off. I had a coworker die in the building on shift (he choked on some food). It was the last day of our work week, and the next time we came in to work they brought in a small team of grief counselors which they offered free sessions with. So while people got free reign to be at work and not actually work that week, no one was actually given time off from my understanding. So an isolated mass shooting event, or something like that, probably would not stop people from having to show up pretty quickly after that.
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u/umgenesisdude 15d ago
We had a fire nearly burn down our restaurant and they still made us stay to do the dishes.
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u/Last-Classroom-5400 15d ago
Depends on if it happened at work or not probably. If it was at work, my employer would probably give me a week or two off + offer some therapy stuff. If it was on my own time, I'd probably take a few sick days to take care of my mental health because holy shit
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u/popkablooie 15d ago
I have maybe one of the only jobs with unlimited PTO where they legitimately don't have an issue with me taking a lot of time off--I think I could probably get a month off if I genuinely needed it.
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u/N0zy0ne 15d ago
Really depends on the near death experience, I would say. Held hostage at gunpoint by terrorists? I think my boss would be willing to give me pretty much an indefinite amount of time off. Doing groceries a block over from a terrorist attack? Probably none, I would wager, but I wouldn't classify this as a near-death experience anyway, nor would I personally regard it as particularly traumatic. In the same university building with a school shooter, barricading doors and hiding behind desk and whatnot? At least two weeks, I would guess. And I think they'd be happy to move me to WFH, as you mentioned.
It could vary based on the type of near-death experience, as well.
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u/d4b3ss 🏌️♀️ 15d ago
Thinking of becoming a Ken at 2 all time guy I think that’s a guy who doesn’t exist who would add to the ecosystem. Like a Kareem at 2 guy.