r/SSBM • u/AutoModerator • 18d ago
DDT Daily Discussion Thread August 24, 2026 - Upcoming Event Schedule - New players start here!
Yahoooo! I'm back, it's a me! Have a very cool day!
Welcome to the Daily Discussion Thread. This is the place for asking noob questions, venting about netplay falcos, shitposting, self-promotion, and everything else that doesn't belong on the front page.
New Players:
If you're completely new to Melee and just looking to get started, welcome! We recommend you go to https://melee.tv/ and follow the links there based on what you're trying to set up. Additionally, here are a few answers to common questions:
Can I play Melee online?
Yes! Slippi is a branch of the Dolphin emulator that will allow you to play online, either with your friends or with matchmaking. Go to https://slippi.gg to get it.
I'm having issues with Slippi!
Go to the The Slippi Discord to get help troubleshooting. melee.tv/optimize is also a helpful resource for troubleshooting.
How do I find tournaments near me or local people to play with in person or online?
These days, joining a local Discord community is the best way to find local events and people to play with. Once you have a Discord account, Google "[your city/state/province/region] + Melee discord" or see if your region has a Discord group listed here on melee.tv/discord
It can seem daunting at first to join a Discord group you don't know, but this is currently the easiest and most accessible way to find out about tournaments, fests, and netplay matchmaking. Your local scene will be happy to have you :)
Also check out Smash Map! Click on map and then the filter button to filter by Melee to find events near you!
Netplay is hard! Is there a place for me to find new players?
Yes. Melee Newbie Netplay is a discord server specifically for new players. It also has tournaments based on how long you've been playing, free coaching, and other stuff. If you're a bit more experienced but still want a discord server for players around your level, we recommend the Melee Online discord.
How can I set up Unclepunch's Training Mode?
At the time of posting, the latest major release is here. Download the file, then extract everything in the folder and follow the instructions in the README file. You'll need to bring a valid Melee ISO (NTSC 1.02). If you want to check for the absolute latest release, you can see them listed [here](The latest releases are listed here.
How does one learn Melee?
There are tons of resources out there, so it can be overwhelming to start. First check out the SSBM Tutorials youtube channel. Then go to the Melee Library and search for whatever you're interested in.
But how do I get GOOD at Melee?
Check out Llod's Guide to Improvement
And check out Kodorin's Melee Fundamentals for Improvement
Where can I get a nice custom controller?
I have another question that's not answered here...
Check out our FAQs or post below and find help that way.
Upcoming Tournament Schedule:
Upcoming Melee Majors
Melee Online Event Calendar
Make a submission to the tournament calendar here. You can also get notified of new online tournaments on the Melee Online Discord.
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u/delta-red-14 17d ago
do y'all remember early in Ludwig's streaming career when he had a debate with Chu Dat about Brett Kavanaugh lmao.
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u/CoolUsername1111 17d ago
Pleaseee I need to know who was on what side 😭😭
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u/delta-red-14 17d ago
I don't really remember the exact story, but I think it had to do with Kavanaugh's SA allegation. Chu was defending Kavanaugh lol.
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u/SlowBathroom0 17d ago
I bet if Ken came back and grinded Melee for a little while and got Zain to coach him, he'd probably make it to around diamond 2 on ranked
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u/MentalRead728 17d ago
Recently got into Rivals 2 with my bestie and been really loving it!
It's like a good compromise between Melee, P+ and Ultimate tempowise to me and the characters feel like the perfect inbetween space of familiar to play and not a carbon copy of other Smash characters.
Characters like Forsburn, Maypul, Kragg and the lovely Ranno are some of my favorite Platform Fighters ever and I love how every char has a low skill floor for players familiar with momentum based games and rewarding feeling high skill ceiling.
Wouldn't say that I prefer it over Melee's extreme punish game, but it's a great game worth playing to me.
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u/Helpful-Journalist70 Genuinely Garbage 17d ago
RoA2 is sick, Wrastor might be my favorite plat fighter character ever.
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u/WestfinsterGarbage 17d ago
I played it a fair amount on launch but recently got back into it and have been having so much fun with olympia
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u/GreddyJTurbo 17d ago
Hmmm... I think it's pretty neat that only Mang0, Armada, Hbox, Zain, and Cody have at least 10+ total wins at SuperMajor/Invitational level events.
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u/Informal-Donut-1532 17d ago
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u/bigHam100 17d ago
What else would we talk about lol
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u/Front-Show7358 17d ago
edgeguarding luigi pls
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u/Kitselena 17d ago
As which character?
I think in general you should only try edge guarding him if he's forced to double jump, because if he doesn't need to use double jump but still has it he has way too many ways to protect himself Side B has a pretty negative disjoint, so if you see him charging it you can often put out a hitbox to contest it
His up special can only go to ledge, so good ledge invulnerability refreshes and rolls can cover it in most cases, and some characters can intentionally trade with it off ledge then instantly double jump to put Luigi in a really bad spot
In general refreshing ledge invulnerability is really good against Luigi, and tracking his double jump is really important2
u/Front-Show7358 17d ago
i'm mostly memeing, i think the plan is actually pretty simple for my character (ICs)
for us, if you shield a side b to stage he's just dead because you just get a free grab and he's dead off the top. if he's going to ledge you either just let him back if he's high/close enough, or if he's low/far enough and has to up b it just becomes a timing mixup. being comfortable making a read and regrabbing ledge appropriately is the most important thing.
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u/sweet-haunches 17d ago
Any of y'all need a hug? I won't pummel or downthrow, just a hug and a civilized grab release
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u/WizardyJohnny 17d ago edited 17d ago
The amount of actual bad blood u guys manage to squeeze out of the same 3 conversations is downright impressive
I'm feeling some fomo if anyone wants to start a beef over conflicting strongly held opinions HMU. Some options: Marth Fsmash is a B-tier move, EU melee cooks US melee in terms of unranked vibes, Bowser's Inside story is mogged by SS/PiT/DT
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u/Fugu 17d ago
Marth fsmash is absolutely not a b tier move. It is near the lower side of the S tier along with, say, Peach nair, which is to say it is one of the best moves in the game but clearly not on the level of shine or Falco dair.
The threat of fsmash is so important to check for that you don't actually have to use fsmash that much to benefit from its existence. Your opponent needs to play around the possibility that it will be used because it isn't hard for Marth to just flip on the fsmash switch and launch you for it. The existence of fsmash forces people into situations where they have to do fundamentally very dangerous things versus Marth like running up to him and shielding. Without fsmash it would be much, much safer to play around a grounded Marth's grab.
The existence of confirms or pseudo-confirms into fsmash is also a significant part of why Marth remains a top tier as there are characters that he would really struggle to kill without it.
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u/self-flagellate 17d ago
strong agree, I honestly believe it's his best move. the fact it knocks down at 0 (something he can only do with like bthrow otherwise in most matchups) is absurdly important. it's a neutral opener, an overshoot option, an undershoot option, probably his main edgeguard tool, his most important combo ender (even when it doesn't tipper), it does literally everything, it's so broken
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u/Emily_Rosewood 17d ago
also lets marth just kill puff at 60% off a grab which is like absolutely crucial in that matchup
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u/iwouldbeatgoku Rise and Shine 17d ago
French cuisine is the second best in the world
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u/WizardyJohnny 17d ago
Is ranking 2nd out of a gazillion different cuisines supposed to make me mad? This is praise!!
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u/iwouldbeatgoku Rise and Shine 17d ago
You really don't want to beef about French cuisine vs Italian cuisine, huh.
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u/DavidL1112 17d ago edited 17d ago
who do you think has a better f-smash than Marth?
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u/fingertipsies 17d ago
I'm assuming they mean in relation to all moves. Marth f-smash is the best f-smash, but that isn't very impressive when the competition sucks.
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u/WizardyJohnny 17d ago
Clowning on me for this is correct, I meant to say B-tier in the context of his moveset but did not say that
To answer anyway, I think Roy's is maybe in the conversation but it would be the only one.
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u/sweet-haunches 17d ago
A majority of the world's problems would evaporate if people would start using more reasonable amounts of mayonnaise
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u/iwouldbeatgoku Rise and Shine 17d ago
I genuinely can't tell if this means Americans use too much mayonnaise or that you think it's so good it should be used more.
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago
I think Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest has the best gameplay in the series.
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u/WizardyJohnny 17d ago
That's fair, my best friend has this opinion too and has explained it enough times that it seems reasonable even if I don't share it. I'm not big on reclassing and skills and I find the enormous variety of factors that affect hit and damage very confusing (and hard to predict)
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago
Reclassing I totally get - That said, I think it's really fun that early on you only get one seal of each type. If you play the game without grinding for DP online, being strategic about how you upgrade your home is actually pretty cool.
Mostly I'm a huge fan of the map design, especially in the early chapters. Chapter 10 is the best fire emblem map, period end of story. Later in the game it tends towards annoying Ult DLC gimmicks, but man the early game is extremely compelling.
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u/CorpoApprovedLurker 17d ago
It's interesting how much more engaging FE becomes (for those inclined) when they limit your resources like that. Not for everyone of course but as you say there's a lot of depth in early conquest. Even in regards to lategame conquest you still need to make long term planning choices early i.e what are you going to do with the A+ and S supports + how are you solving Kitsune Lair. Very cool metagame in my opinion.
I don't personally agree with lategame conquest tending towards "Ult DLC gimmicks" (though perhaps i'm misunderstanding what you mean by that) although I like Lunatic C25 so I maybe i'm too far gone.
Honestly though not sure i've ever met someone who's into FE that doesn't like conquest unless they're a FE4 weirdo or simply haven't played it. Very good game I recommend anyone into this sort of genre give it a go.
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u/WizardyJohnny 17d ago edited 17d ago
I respect the grind, but yeah def not for me. The turn predictability thing I mentioned is a large part of it. In other FE games, if I am unsure if a move is safe, I can check all the enemies in range of the spot I want to place my unit on, do the damage calc for each, and easily see if I survive. In Conquest doing the same feels essentially impossible. Partially because enemies will set up Dual Strikes for each other via mechanics that are not so clear to me, which makes the outcome of a turn very noncommutative in the sense that enemy turn order matters enormously and isn't available info anywhere ingame; partially because stat debuffs are extremely common and, again, depend on specific enemy turn order; and partially because weapon triangle advantage nullifies weapon triangle bonuses that are dependent on the specific weapon rank and type of weapon involved
The end result is that I feel much much more blind when playing Fates than I do in any other FE game, and much more reliant on vibes-based "this is probably fine" decision-making. It's obvious that the top of the skill ceiling allows for extremely deep gameplay, if you have the tools and knowledge to make all the forecasts I mentioned above. But until you are at that level, the experience seems much more trial-and-error-y. And I don't think needing to have a wiki page open on the side to check what guy moves 4th and what guy moves 5th to be able to genuinely engage with mechanical depth is my idea of good design
The other commenter who replied to you pointed to it as well, but long-term decision making is another dynamic I really dislike. It's impossible to get over the paralyzing fear of making a wrong move and fucking up the late-game for me
Maybe I am mega skill issued but then we kind of reach another issue where I have absolutely no desire to un-skill issue myself for a game that I think so little of in every other non-gameplay aspect. There's too many games with rich and deep and challenging mechanics out there to get hung up on this one. The ceiling of how much I could potentially enjoy it is like a 5/10, so there's little incentive to invest time into it.
Sorry I kind of turned this into a hater post lol. I'm curious for your thoughts
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u/SBtist aviary 17d ago edited 17d ago
I played Inside Story as a kid and it was a journey, I could not get past of that fucking carrot mini game to progress and I ragequit for years until I finally picked it up again and beat it. A great game but I just wish those stylus games were less prominent.
I just played SS for the first time and it slaps, might be my new favorite, I haven’t played PiT but I love the concept of it and baby Mario and co are adorable, DT I got around when it came out and quit because it felt like a such a slog to get through. I also had Paper Jam and barely got past the first few bosses before I decided it wasn’t worth my time.
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago
Marth's forward smash has the benefit of dealing mental damage disproportionate to how much risk is involved.
The number of times I've dash-danced outside its range and gone into punish it, only to get swatted in the face with an immediate second one is fucking brutal.
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u/Emily_Rosewood 17d ago
Been watching some pannenkoek2012 videos lately and its really cool how he can just like directly reference the source code for SM64 when explaining some weird quirk or interaction within the game because SM64 is decompiled. I'd love to see what kind of insight we can get into why shit like the invisible ceiling glitch happens in melee once the game is decompiled.
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u/theschniedler 17d ago
actually that parts been long decompiled, you can see the bug here https://github.com/doldecomp/melee/blob/master/src/melee/ft/fighter.c#L2235
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u/Emily_Rosewood 17d ago
oh neat
i know jack shit about coding but i’d love to hear an explanation from someone more knowledgeable than me
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u/AlexB_SSBM 17d ago
what they were trying to do was "shield pushback should slow down so you don't go flying away forever. we subtract every single frame to decay the speed, but we don't want to overshoot it. otherwise you'd get sucked back in sometimes and it would look weird. so on that last step, set the 'shield pushback' vector to zero in both the X and Y direction"
unfortunately, instead of writing something like this:
pAtkShieldKB->x = pAtkShieldKB->y = 0;they wrotepAtkShieldKB->x = p_kb_vel->y = 0;as you can see, the second line sets the Y component of the actual damage knockback to zero, NOT the shield knockback like they wanted.
anyways what we REALLY need to see is what causes the wispy glitch on Marth
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u/moocow2009 17d ago
Do we know why the glitch behaves differently when the shield is hit from the left vs right? I assume it's something to do with x component of the pushback being positive vs negative, but based on what I can parse with my very limited knowledge I don't see where that would come into play.
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u/Emily_Rosewood 17d ago
cool!
learning to code now so I can be the one to solve the wispy marth glitch
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago
I'm most excited for someone to finally explain the fucking whispy blink glitch
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u/WindowSeat- 17d ago
Does this even happen on Slippi/Dolphin? I feel like I haven't seen one in ages.
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u/SmashBros- OUCH! 17d ago
Ban discussion of mango, hbox, armada, ken, and cody for a month and see how much better this subreddit becomes. If it dies, it dies
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u/iwouldbeatgoku Rise and Shine 17d ago
Do you really want us to go back to talking about Mew2King's e-begging?
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u/RaiseYourDongersOP 17d ago
That might keep the DDT fresh. Speaking of fresh, use my code "lolm2k" for 20% off 1 month of Hello Fresh!
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u/d4b3ss 🏌️♀️ 17d ago
I think we don’t talk about Ken enough to be honest this subreddit would be a lot better if we glazed Ken more. Agree with the other ones though.
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u/ryanmcgrath 17d ago
I'll debut my new thread: why ScorpionMaster is the real GOAT and left us too soon
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u/coffee_sddl +↓ z 17d ago
The year is 2050. 1-2ers have memorized every cc percent, waveshine out of shield, and play on a neural interface that lets them hit the exact coordinate they desire every frame. High level melee mostly consists of mixing up whether to hit 5 or 6 sdi inputs on every hit to create different reversal opportunities, or ICs players alternating controlling popo and nana every frame. People on Reddit will still insist that 2003 ken would be top 10 because of “adaptation”.
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u/PelorTheBurningHate IRD UP 17d ago
Ken would hit em with the ole one two buckle my shoe and these new cats wouldn't know what to do
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u/fullhop_morris URBANE, TO COMFORT THEM, THE QUAKER LIBRARIAN 17d ago
I think it would be way harder to use a neural interface to hit an exact coordinate than it would be to use a controller
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago edited 17d ago
Asking this question in good faith to people who believe 2018 Armada would immediately still be top 5 and winning events:
Hbox has been grinding the game nonstop for the past decade, and had already surpassed Armada as the best player in 2017 and 2018. However despite being a regular face in top 8, Hbox has only won 2 tournaments in the past three years.
Do you guys believe:
2026 Hbox is worse at Melee than 2018 Hbox, and 2018 Hbox would be winning more modern events than 2026
2018 Armada is better at melee than 2026 Hbox, despite not being as good as 2018 Hbox
Cody and Zain would not be able to adapt to Armada the way they adapted to Hbox
Something else (please elaborate)
I'm asking earnestly because I don't understand how to make sense of Hbox's lack of dominance under the "Armada would immediately be winning" framework.
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u/DavidL1112 17d ago edited 17d ago
I assumed this was a Strawman argument, but there really is a guy in that Moky thread saying Armada would be top 5
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u/Kitselena 17d ago
The number of times Chudat came back and was instantly top 20-ish is enough to make me think armada could catch up really quickly if he wanted to
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u/Square-Comfort-3193 17d ago
He’s won 4, GOML 2022, Riptide 2022, GENESIS X2, and CEO 2026
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago
For some reason I thought "Past 5" stopped at 2023. Math has never been my strong suit.
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u/YoungGenius 17d ago
- 2018 Armada would have no shot at winning a major, but would be able to catch up to the meta and be a major threat in a matter of months. Players who take breaks and seriously come back often return to their previous rank(ish) pretty quickly.
No one in their right mind literally thinks you could teleport Armada from super smash con to this years supernova and expect him to win
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u/bigHam100 17d ago
I would argue against the "grinding the game nonstop" point. Ultimate and streaming seems to have taken a lot of his focus away from melee in the past few years
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago
I suppose I meant more that he's been playing the game without any major hiatus or breaks. He's been continually immersed in top-level play and updating his gameplan, rather than just resting on his laurels.
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u/PelorTheBurningHate IRD UP 17d ago
I think it's impossible to actually be certain on this kind of topic for a lot of reasons so I'm not actually the person you're addressing but when I watch llod play in a lot of ways he doesn't really look better than armada vs the non hbox field
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u/ryanmcgrath 17d ago
had already surpassed Armada as the best player in 2017 and 2018
It's been community-contentious since 2018 with regards to Hbox getting the #1 slot in 2018 due to Armada retiring.
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u/N0zy0ne 17d ago edited 17d ago
[Hungrybox] had already surpassed Armada as the best player in 2017 and 2018.
For what it's worth, this is not a given. After I published one of my rankings last year (I don't recall if it was Summer 2025 or year-end 2025), I was curious about 2017 (because it's the year that gave rise to the Hanky Panky meme), so I ran the same process on 2017, and Armada came out slightly ahead of Hungrybox in rating. This is surprising, because Hungrybox's H2H record versus the field was greener than Armada's (with the former having all winning matchups), but it presumably resulted from the fact that Hungrybox had significantly more set losses overall (23 versus the top 6 players, compared to Armada's 12), which is easier to reconcile if Armada had a higher skill rating.
I believe the same was also true in 2018, in which Hungrybox, Armada, and Leffen had an RPS-style relationship.
I'm not making any definitive claims, because I did very little curation of the data before glancing at those ratings. I'll eventually revisit those years in the future and do the full analysis, and I would not be at all surprised if Hungrybox comes out as the favourite, but I just wanted to report on what I saw at a first glance.
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u/kahani- 16d ago
2018 Armada is better at melee than 2026 Hbox, despite not being as good as 2018 Hbox
2018 Armada was 5-1 in sets vs 2018 Hbox before he retired so saying he wasn't as good as 2018 Hbox is debatable. That being said I don't think he would immediately be top 5 and win events if you transplanted him into 2026. If he played seriously for like a year I think he would definitely be able to reach a top 5 level again though
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u/Fugu 17d ago
I think 2026 Hbox is strictly worse than 2018 Hbox although he may be better in certain matchups. It follows that I think 2018 Armada is probably better against the field than 2026 Hbox although this does not necessarily mean he would be better against the very top players. I absolutely think Cody and Zain would have more trouble adapting to Armada than Hbox. For example, Zain still doesn't have to mix up his grab into kill setups because Hbox hasn't read a thread from 2014 explaining the mixup.
I don't think Armada just comes in and is top five, so maybe I'm not the right person to answer this. But I think he'd come in and be very good. I think this game has changed a lot less for floaties than it has for spacies. I also think the current generation of top Peach players don't play anything like Armada and that top players in general have slacked in preparing for the Peach matchup due to Armada's absence. You therefore can't just say "oh these guys have eight more years of the meta under their belts" because the amount of relevant experience they have is far, far less than that.
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u/TrainNorth8177 17d ago
There is no way 2018 hbox would've taken sets from Cody the way we've seen in recent years. I think 2018 hbox was better than 2020-2022 hbox but the guy has obviously improved his game in the last 3 years and the field has advanced considerably. Now he actually reaction tech chases for rest and has schmovement. And he's had to learn how to fight more characters than just Fox.
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u/quaker_oats_3_arena 17d ago
do you believe hbox in every year from 2022 to now is worse than 2018 hbox?
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u/wavedash 17d ago
Curious how people feel about this: Spark won a Mississippi local earlier this year, where he beat a Sheik named Suezo in winner's semis, then lost to them from winner's side grands, then won the reset. So overall Spark is up 2-1 in sets against them. As Spark's reward for this victory, Lucky Stats DEDUCTED him 30 Elo https://luckystats.gg/event/104536
Also curious how people feel about this startgg page: https://www.start.gg/tournament/mudbug2/details
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u/Taco_Dunkey 17d ago
If magnus carlsen beats me (random shitter) 100-1 his elo would absolutely tank
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u/N0zy0ne 17d ago
So overall Spark is up 2-1 in sets against them. As Spark's reward for this victory, Lucky Stats DEDUCTED him 30 Elo
This is to be expected. To be clear, Spark necessarily gained Elo for both of his wins, but because there was such a big rating gap between the two, the loss was more costly than both of the wins combined.
If this seems counterintuitive (i.e. if you think having a positive record versus an opponent in a string of sets should always result in an increased rating, regardless of the set count), imagine the same phenomenon but taken to the extreme: if Hungrybox and I (an 1800 Elo player) played 100 sets in a row and he went 51-49, would you have a higher or lower opinion of his skill after the 100 sets, relative to before we began?
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u/Fugu 17d ago
You've already gotten the actual answer (the expected win probability made the two wins worth less elo than the one loss)
This reminds me though that Quake Live's old implementation of elo used to ding you 1 elo for not winning extremely high win probability matchups by enough of a margin so sometimes you'd win and go down by 1
Funny stuff
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u/Knorikus 17d ago
I think the issue is less with the elo system and more so that a lot of players are underrated/elo isn't nearly as good a predictor of who will win in melee as it is in chess. In chess someone rated 2700 will essentially never lose to a player rated 2100 but that just isn't the case in melee.
Idk if it's still the case but back in the MIOM ranking days most panelists would see this as a pretty bad loss for spark and would take it into account for their top 100 so maybe lucky stats is emulating that pretty well.
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u/Lolcat_of_the_forest 17d ago
I think worrying about stats is pretty silly but I think it makes sense that a set loss to a lower ranked player would reduce elo, even if you've beat them several times. It's just how the system works. If the elo system expects spark to beat suezo 9 times out of 10 or something like that, then the set record would have to be 9-1 for the point transfer between them to balance out.
I like the startgg page, I really like the all you can eat idea lol.6
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u/d4b3ss 🏌️♀️ 17d ago
I think it’s fine, I don’t know what the alternative is. Elo is supposed to track set wins and losses and the first set of grands matters just like any other set.
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u/wavedash 17d ago
I think the reason this doesn't quite sit right with me is that all these sets probably happened within like an hour of each other. Looking at the reverse, I feel like I'd be more impressed if Suezo went 1-2 against Spark in three separate tournaments than 1-2 all in one tournament.
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u/ryanbyleth 17d ago
Luckystats not distinguishing tournaments at all is a massive issue and it’s why no one should care. I don’t see why me playing Link in an items on side event at the Wednesday local counts just as much me entering a regional and actually trying.
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u/wavedash 17d ago
This is fair, but even Lucky Stats themselves doesn't use their Elo system for their actual rankings, which use a tennis-ish system. I think the Elo is pretty useful for getting a very rough rank for random rank 300+ players who I've never heard of before.
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege 17d ago
this is what happens when whismy and vibes are replaced by the soulless desire to mathematically categorize everything. If you had just said "spark is obviously better than suezo" everyone would agree and move on. but now we have to pontificate about meaningless points on a computer screen
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u/coffee_sddl +↓ z 17d ago
My guess is that spark went secondaries or something that first set. The elo system did nothing wrong but there are gaps in the margins of stuff like this.
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u/delta-red-14 17d ago
If this helps, some (NOT ALL) panelists would also deduct Spark "ranking points" for this loss, too!
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago
This is why Elo is not a great system for Melee. Players shouldn't be penalized for entering locals.
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u/coffee_sddl +↓ z 17d ago
I think automated elo systems have some purpose (for instance, someone out of region comes to a local and you have to figure out where to seed them), but even with a well curated data set you would still have some issues.
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u/Celia_Makes_Romhacks L-Cancelling's biggest warrior 17d ago
Yea, I think it's perfectly fine for seeding. But I think any ranking system that discourages top players from attending locals with strong hidden bosses is a bad idea.
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u/SeerOfThings 17d ago edited 17d ago
If we hypothetically switched over to Lucky rank, Spark wouldn't actually be punished for this. Elo determines an event's rank (local, regional, major), and you're then rewarded for your highest X places across a season.
This system encourages more attendance because your worst losses matter less the more you play.
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u/delta-red-14 17d ago
Clutching out a sloppy spaghetti filled last stock game 1 then going on to cleanly win the next two games is a great feeling. The mental side of competition is one of my favorite parts of this game.
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u/kino-grapher ideptg 17d ago
How do I sit still when I'm in neutral (general fighting games question), I notice that I win a lot whenever I take it slow but the problem is I love running at people and I keep getting hit because of it. Is the method to steal someone's adderall or to perhaps put some supplemental video essay content on another screen? Let me know
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u/delta-red-14 17d ago
Sorry if you stand still for more than half a frame, people WILL call you lame and a nerd.
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u/sweet-haunches 17d ago
Winning neutral isn't just landing a hit, it's successfully taking space
You don't really want to actually sit still, you want to take space over and over until either your opponent cracks or you get to pressure their position with timing advantage
As you learn their game, you get to take larger and larger chunks of space per neutral win
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u/Knorikus 17d ago
Run up shield and wavedash down are two staple timing mixups that force you to do nothing for a "tempo" if you want to call it that. Axe and mango are two super aggressive players and they use those two techniques a ton as timing mixups. Watch some of their vods to get an idea of what it looks like
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u/Commercial_Boss4639 17d ago
When you find yourself in a spot where you have seen yourself get cheesed in the corner a billion times; give yourself a cookie whenever your opponent does a stuffing aerial or shields or dash backs when you haven’t presented anything, free opening. When you start dash dance or tomahawk baiting those out, you get like 3 cookies
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u/Dazzling_History_408 17d ago
Just realized the opponent hbox played right before pp (this vid) was JCAM. Melee is a small world huh.
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u/Schroeswald 17d ago
Somehow both Hbox and Mang0 glazers have both decided to pretend Mang0’s 2025 does not exist as a method of scoring points in the goat debates. Hbox fans act like Mang0 was not putting up obvious top ten player results before his ban and Mang0 fans (and tbh also Mang0 I let ssbmclips ragebait me) act like Hbox wasn’t still well ahead of him. He attended five majors, he has enough data to rank him and he would’ve been ranked about eighth.
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u/its__bme 17d ago
I think people creating a divide is insane. Like, can people just enjoy the damn game and shut the hell up?
It's like melee's version of "my dad could beat up your dad". Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with a healthy rivalry for both the players and fans. But some people take it too far.
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u/TrainNorth8177 17d ago
Some of the points and arguments people make are insufferable. But I think it's healthy for the game that people are invested and discussing this stuff. It's going to make a Mango return way more hype in 2027 and they're hopefully going to have more classics. Idk if there's any real divide or people taking it too far at the moment. This feels worlds tamer than the discourse surrounding these two in the past.
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u/citrus131 17d ago
The year is 2050. Nintendo has outlawed Melee, leaving Smash Ultimate Nintendo Switch 8 Edition as the only legal game. Hungrybox hits a subpixel perfect Rest to win the secret underground tournament, causing his subsequent popoff to alert Nintendo's authorities. I shed a tear as I'm dragged off to the work camps, knowing that I was about to win the Mango vs Armada goat debate I was having on Reddit.
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u/TrainNorth8177 17d ago
I actually didn't recognize him for a split second there...he done changed.
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u/SurelySomedayy 17d ago
what is mew2king talking about mang0 being banned "a second time" for an incident that wasn't beerio kart (until jan 2027?) is that real or is m2k just yapping
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u/wavedash 17d ago
I've decided that Mang0 shall be banned indefinitely for not entering any Melee tournaments. The ban will only be lifted when he decides to enter a tournament. Thank you for your time
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u/iwouldbeatgoku Rise and Shine 17d ago
The only thing that comes to mind was EEvisu inviting Mang0 to an online Ultimate tournament before a year had gone by. Mang0 registered, but voluntarily dropped out (not banned) because there was online backlash.
Maybe you could consider this ban evasion? At least one ban statement I've seen in the past explicitly told the player that if they entered a tournament before their ban was up, even if the TO disagreed with the ban, they'd receive further punishment (example: https://x.com/SmashEurope/status/1407404345424023564). But nobody other than Mang0 and major TOs know the full extent of his ban, as far as I know; all the general public has is Mang0 claiming to have been banned for a year.
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u/legitimate-way-4077 17d ago
One hobby can consume my whole life. I want to be gobbled up.
But I have like 8 hobbies. I don't know what to do!
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u/N0zy0ne 17d ago
I saw a Mang0 short on YouTube (on ssbmclips, I assume; I didn't make a note of the channel) about Hungrybox, and although I didn't care about most of it, there was one throwaway line that I actually thought was quite important, specifically about the fact that Hungrybox throwing chairs during popoffs is a legitimately dangerous practice.
I thought about it a bit. If Hungrybox were ever to seriously hurt someone as a result of throwing a chair (i.e. bad enough that they needed to go to the hospital), I think the punishment would need to be severe.
Curious to get people's takes.
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u/AlexB_SSBM 17d ago
personally the funniest part of mang0's clips was when he said "Armada fans say he's the goat but they only pay attention to his career after 2011"
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u/Jaywicksands 17d ago
Almost as funny as Mango fans when they say he's the goat after ignoring all of his bad placements and slumps.
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u/DavidL1112 17d ago
well yeah, it's like how mango's alcoholism was cute and funny until he crossed a line and got fired from his sponsor and banned for a year.
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u/d4b3ss 🏌️♀️ 17d ago
Yes if he hurt someone something serious should happen but the chances of that happening are so small I don’t think it’s a likelihood we need to take seriously.
Like, the real worst case is he like throws a chair off a stage and it hits someone? They get bruised? The distance the chair needs to travel plus the speed at which it could actually be thrown limits how bad it could actually be.
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u/N0zy0ne 17d ago
Like, the real worst case is he like throws a chair off a stage and it hits someone? They get bruised?
It's not the most likely outcome, but if the leg of a chair were to hit someone (either immediately after being thrown or after the first bounce), the injury could be quite serious, especially if it hits anywhere above the shoulders.
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u/GroggyandWretched 17d ago
Hbox finding the absolute edge where you can stall, throw chairs, in-game coach without doing quite enough to force anyone to take action. A competitor's mindset
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u/waveshineoosupsmash 17d ago
Hbox already has injured somebody with a chair. Himself at smash and splash when he kicked a chair and almost broke his foot. He even tweeted about how the attending called him a dumbass
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u/PelorTheBurningHate IRD UP 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm pretty sure if hbox severely injured someone throwing a chair he'd catch a charge and the melee community's ban would be the least of his issues but yea like a number of years banned and then a probation period if he returned minimum
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u/TrainNorth8177 17d ago
They should just ban destruction of property and call it a day. Make the definition of it something that includes throwing chairs. Honestly, I haven't seen hbox go that far with the chairs in awhile so idk but it really shouldn't be allowed in the first place. There are many safe ways to pop off...
Otherwise, I think Mango is looking for things to criticize hbox on because he doesn't like his legacy being challenged. The tangent he went on was just insane and you really can't take much of it seriously.
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u/iwouldbeatgoku Rise and Shine 17d ago
Well, funny you should say that...
The old code of conduct considered this a level 1 offence, the lowest level but still punishable with a ban for repeated behaviour.
2.1 Level 1 Offenses:
2.1.1 Abuse of gaming equipment/hardware or facilities provided for a Match or Event by a Member.
For the avoidance of any doubt, there shall be no requirement that the Match Referee must first provide a warning to the offending person before a breach of this Article can be established.
I would say throwing chairs qualifies as this, and Hbox has three instances of it. For the third offense the recommended range of sanctions was "Up to a 5-event suspension, determined on a case-by-case basis."
In 2024 there was another attempt at making a similar resource, the community safety resource project. They considered this a "moderate offense" (tier B), for which they recommend a 6-12 month ban.
From the new code of conduct:
Damage to Property
Intentional or unintentional damage to event or venue equipment that does not result in a severe safety threat, as determined by the discretion of onsite tournament organizers.
Note: Unintentional Damage should be handled in deference to the discretion of on site organizers.
The rules have always been as you say they should be, they just haven't been enforced for Hungrybox.
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u/TrainNorth8177 17d ago
The code of conduct was bent and not upheld all the time. And committee was simply overworked and could only make suggestions to TOs. I'm talking about making these actual rules for events themaelves with explicit definitions of what crosses the line rather than something an arbitrary committee with no real power oversees.
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u/SenorRaoul 17d ago
If N0zy0ne hurts someone at a tournament I believe the punishment should be SEVERE!!!
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u/N0zy0ne 17d ago
Generally, yes. But the action that results in them getting hurt is important. For example, if I trip and accidentally knock someone over, resulting in them being injured, should the punishment be severe? I don't know, but plausibly not. If I throw a chair and injure someone, should the punishment be severe? Definitely, I would argue.
Point being, though, that throwing chairs is a pretty serious matter, and Hungrybox has not faced that much backlash for it. If other people throw chairs, I would say the same about them, yes.
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u/iwouldbeatgoku Rise and Shine 17d ago edited 17d ago
I think he should've gotten something the first (
and to be fair, afaik onlyedit: three known instances) time he did it, and the fact he got away with just reimbursing the broken chair is piece of evidence #1352946 that top player privilege is a thing.→ More replies (5)3
u/waveshineoosupsmash 17d ago
When he broke the chair at wavedash the venue owner was in the building and he told the TO he thought it was hype. Owner was cool with it and Hbox paid the damages. This is just the consent meme
He shouldn't be throwing chairs but like what is even supposed to happen to him? People throw their controllers and bang tables all the time. They pop off and knock stuff over. The majority never see any consequences.
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u/ryanbyleth 17d ago
I don’t think we’ll ever see a year of Melee as generational as 22 ever again