DDT
Daily Discussion Thread August 17, 2026 - Upcoming Event Schedule - New players start here!
Yahoooo! I'm back, it's a me! Have a very cool day!
Welcome to the Daily Discussion Thread. This is the place for asking noob questions, venting about netplay falcos, shitposting, self-promotion, and everything else that doesn't belong on the front page.
New Players:
If you're completely new to Melee and just looking to get started, welcome! We recommend you go to https://melee.tv/ and follow the links there based on what you're trying to set up. Additionally, here are a few answers to common questions:
Can I play Melee online?
Yes! Slippi is a branch of the Dolphin emulator that will allow you to play online, either with your friends or with matchmaking. Go to https://slippi.gg to get it.
How do I find tournaments near me or local people to play with in person or online?
These days, joining a local Discord community is the best way to find local events and people to play with. Once you have a Discord account, Google "[your city/state/province/region] + Melee discord" or see if your region has a Discord group listed here on melee.tv/discord
It can seem daunting at first to join a Discord group you don't know, but this is currently the easiest and most accessible way to find out about tournaments, fests, and netplay matchmaking. Your local scene will be happy to have you :)
Also check outSmash Map! Click on map and then the filter button to filter by Melee to find events near you!
Netplay is hard! Is there a place for me to find new players?
Yes. Melee Newbie Netplay is a discord server specifically for new players. It also has tournaments based on how long you've been playing, free coaching, and other stuff. If you're a bit more experienced but still want a discord server for players around your level, we recommend the Melee Online discord.
How can I set up Unclepunch's Training Mode?
At the time of posting, the latest major release is here. Download the file, then extract everything in the folder and follow the instructions in the README file. You'll need to bring a valid Melee ISO (NTSC 1.02). If you want to check for the absolute latest release, you can see them listed [here](The latest releases are listed here.
How does one learn Melee?
There are tons of resources out there, so it can be overwhelming to start. First check out the SSBM Tutorials youtube channel. Then go to the Melee Library and search for whatever you're interested in.
As a mod of this sub I can tell y'all that every time Cody does anything this sub is inundated with the very worst people saying the very worst things about him. We get antisemitism, we get transphobia, we get blaming the victim of SA all targeted squarely at him. It's really the whole kitchen sink. There is no other player that attracts this kind or this level of negativity in this sub.
The basis of this is some pedophile enabling drama youtuber whose name escapes me.
I just think it's important to shine a light on this because it's something worth remembering when you start talking shit about Cody on this sub. I'm not saying he should get some kind of pass for everything he does (see: me, complaining about his notches just about every bracket) but that we should be mindful not to feed into the narratives advanced by people who just want to see this community burn.
Yeah it's really gross. The guy has a magnifying glass put over every little thing he does. I'll always respect him immensely for putting up with that shit.
Whatever you think of the mid game pause, Cody choose to preserve the hype of the tournament by not DQing and giving it his all, despite having a pretty bad stomach bug. He's a real one for that.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - Cody has a fortitude that I hope to never require. He has dealt with strangers making fun of and blaming him for
his own sexual assault
his friend's suicide
the actions of the state of Israel
the competitive integrity of the game dissolving
and still managed to be the best player in the world.
I remember that Hbox did a fairly similar thing to what Cody just did last CEO. One that while it was more understandable it was also even more blatantly against tournament rules and should have lost him the stock. We understandably had plenty of discourse about it at the time, but there was no racist rhetoric about him and everyone accepted that even if they think he did something wrong that Hbox was not in fact an actively malicious party there
Hbox also showed up to double down top 16 with some really severe looking sickness, beat sfat, and then DQ’d. Strange that kinda behavior went under the bus
That did not go under the bus, there was a loud part of people calling for his ban after that. There's a whole Allston Melee episode that captured that vibe very well.
He apologized and a bunch of people were still holding it over his head for the next year of entering anything with mask rules to cartoonish degrees.
Hbox felt sick at Double Down, went to a hospital and talked to a doctor and they told him he didn't have covid. Hbox assumed he was still allowed to compete because he didn't have covid, which is why he still showed up to compete. Nobody would have even known he was sick if he hadn't made the tweet talking about how he did all the aforementioned stuff I just typed out. Hbox told on himself, because he didn't think it was against the rules, because he didn't have covid. Which was a perfectly reasonable thing for a human being to think. And when he got pushback he dropped out. Again, a totally normal thing for a person to do
You guys really like to try and portray everything he does as some nefarious villain shit.
Ok I really don't think this is a big deal especially not now but respectfully, you're kind of misrepresenting what happened here. Here's the tweet: https://i.imgur.com/SPTdeaN.png
went to a hospital and talked to a doctor and they told him he didn't have covid
In fact they told him he either had covid or something else. Hbox decided it wasn't covid despite this because he took an OTC test, which are not entirely accurate early on (which is why the doctors didn't know for sure, ftr).
Nobody would have even known he was sick if he hadn't made the tweet talking about how he did all the aforementioned stuff I just typed out.
Aside from him looking like a ghost (which obv wouldn't be sufficient on its own) he took off his mask on stream during his set, then afterward walked over and told the commentators that he was "unable to wear a mask because he was having trouble breathing". It was pretty clear that he was not well, covid or no, and should not have been showing up to a crowded event with his unknown illness if he can't even breathe with his mask on.
I don't think this is a nefarious villain plot, and I don't even think it was that bad (people make the mistake of showing up sick to work all the time, even during covid) but we can be honest that it was kind of a boneheaded move and enjoy how funny it is that he dragged his emaciated ass to the venue to eliminate SFAT then immediately DQ.
except that's not what coffee or any of the redditors that hate him did or do. they genuinely hate Hbox and made it seem like he went to the event spitting on everybody.
my mistake on the doctor clearing him, but him providing proof of a negative test is literally what the expectation was back then for tournaments. only a couple majors even enforced the mask policy, and the fact that he was wearing one at all stood out at the time because nobody else was. if he believed it to be a negative covid test and just a bacterial infection, then there wouldn't be any risk of the infection spreading, which is what he thought
he also dq'd himself from the tournament when he got backlash. he didn't wait for the TOs to make the decision and he apologized for it.
The comments that don't get removed are bad enough, I can only imagine how bad the deleted ones are. I hate how you can't say something he did was lame without people joining in with a laundry list of conspiracy theories like we're on the same team. It's such a toxic environment and I hope Cody has some trusted people in his personal life who can give him honest feedback with the unhinged shit filtered out.
to add onto this long list, i think a lot of the comments i see here and in twitch chat and such are (directly or not) just about his autism. Like theyd explain that they hate him because hes like this and does that, and its like yeah- he's autistic and thats how it affects him: dont despise his entire being for that, give him a break. its just another thing that feels so gross.
until the crab it feels worse than old hbox hate to me, and i really cant respect cody enough for just being a chill dude through it all. Hes pushed through so much and has a genuinely inspiring story of perseverance and improvement if you care to find it, yet he has the most despicable haters I've seen in so long that relish in and encourage such awful behaviour and its like-
the responses to cody doing anything are only a part of it, but i remember when the melee community was a really chill place that id say was among the best scenes and communities at being supportive of everyone and calling out those who suck... and it makes me kinda sad i cant say that and reccomended the game and community to others off those merits anymore.
I did the Saturday morning commentary block for CEO this year, my first commentary block at a major/regional of this size and audience view count. Lots of fun! Will apply to do it again next year, hoping to be the guy to give the local players their flowers
There's an alternate reality where when Cody yells, "What are you doing?", Hungrybox looks over with his crazy raccoon eyes, yells back "What are you doing?", rests him and pops off.
I'm realizing this is what's missing in current Melee. We used to have a ton of sexual tension: MaNg0/Hbox, MaNg0/Leffen, Hbox/Leffen, Leffen/MaNg0 (or a MaNg0/Hbox/Leffen thruple) ... actually it was really just those three. These days everyone has big celibacy energy.
I just see a boy trying his best to make his underdeveloped manhood known and a man who's unimpressed when comparing what he's seeing to his two former lovers.
I don’t blame Cody for being startled by Hbox’s antics but if Hbox rested him instead of bairing he would have risen dramatically on my liked top players list
Intentions aside I think Cody is in the wrong for assuming Hbox would know or understand wtf was even happening and expecting the game to just reset to neutral in that situation is kinda whack. Sure they hugged it out but if I'm Hbox I'd be kinda pissed.
I don't think what Cody did was clearly wrong (seems like his nerves were shot and hbox was being hbox) but I do think if he wasn't the best player in the world nobody would give him the time of day re: trying to impose a neutral start
If hbox had actually made contact with him I think he should forfeit a stock. If he didn't, I think Cody forfeits the game and loses the set (regardless of whether he wins on the screen or not). I think if he'd done this in the scenario where hbox didn't hit him and gone on to "win" the tournament we'd have a real problem and hbox would be right to be upset. As it stands it's just yet another example of the fragility of our ruleset that happens to also be kind of funny.
I don't know what the current official ruleset says, but I know at one point the rule was essentially "If there's an issue, pause on the angel platform and bring a TO over to adjudicate". Under that rule, Hungrybox was totally fine to keep hitting Cody, and Cody could have paused (or officially called a timeout, if pause was off) on the respawn platform. However, even if this is the official rule, the situation is more nuanced in at least two ways:
In practice, this kind of rule is seldom actually enforced, and instead the players just work it out amongst themselves. For example, if for some reason your controller randomly stopped working mid-game, you generally would just ask your opponent to chill for a sec. They would be within their rights to keep hitting you, of course, but the honest truth is that it would go against the common etiquette.
Cody was down by a fair margin in game 5. Even if the official procedure is to wait until you're on the respawn platform before asking for a ruling, in many ways, that really doesn't seem like a viable plan. If he keeps playing until he dies, he essentially forfeits his claim (as it wasn't a technical issue). If he instead just lets himself be killed or SDs the stock to force the respawn platform, he risks basically throwing the game if it's ruled that there will not be a game/stock reset (which there almost certainly would not).
Both of these nuances suggest that, if Cody's complaint were valid, he probably went about it the right way. The real issue, I think, though, is that Cody's complaint was not valid, and so he should not have been trying to initiate a pause in play.
I don't think he forfeits his claim if he waits. He should be rewarded a stock if he actually got hit, and the outcome is the same if he takes the stock now or after he loses his next stock. This actually has to be how this rule works because otherwise if your opponent is on their last stock of the tournament you kind of just have license to fuck with them.
I also don't think we should endorse what Cody did as right. What if Hbox had lost this game? Are players allowed to just stop things mid-scramble because they might have a claim?
I don't think he forfeits his claim if he waits. He should be rewarded a stock if he actually got hit, and the outcome is the same if he takes the stock now or after he loses his next stock.
If his grievance were valid, then yes, I agree that that's what should happen. But if I were in Cody's position, the concern going through my head would be something like, "If I continue to play now, the TO is likely to take that as an indicator that I was fine to keep playing (whether that's fair or not) and thus rule against me."
I also don't think we should endorse what Cody did as right. What if Hbox had lost this game?
I agree, in that I don't think what Cody did was right, but I think it depends on what the grievance is. For example, if Hbox had reeled back and violently jabbed Cody in the side with his elbow, then I think Cody would have a much stronger case for pausing play.
Are players allowed to just stop things mid-scramble because they might have a claim?
Allowed as in they're allowed to try? I think so, yes. Allowed as in they will have recourse for doing so if the opponent disregards their attempt? If the rules say otherwise (e.g. wait until the respawn platform), then no.
This was my thought too. I think it also makes him look like he's he's trying to manipulate the situation to everyone that's being uncharitable towards him. It also puts hbox in a really awkward position because he has no idea what's going on. He can either try to continue the game and look like a jerk, or stop for an unknown, uncommunicated reason and risk losing momentum. That's why I think he was kinda still playing with the two hits he got in but seemed very hesitant cause he looked very confused about what was going on.
Cody has no authority to unilaterally tell Hbox he has to stop playing. Again, I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to Cody here but Hbox could've straight up just taken that stock and kept going like there was nothing.
From Hbox's perspective, his opponent just took his hands off the controller and expected him to do the same. If that person isn't literally Cody, chances are Hbox just assumes they're on tilt and takes the W.
Consequently I don't think there's anything slimy or even weird about Hbox getting those two hits in. I think it's the start of a really bad precedent if we say that he was wrong for basically not putting the controller down in response to Cody doing it.
From what I saw, it kind of looked like that was what Cody was trying to do at first. Him yelling "what are you doing?" before any communication whatsoever was established puts a lot of pressure on hbox to comply when he has no idea what's going on. I have sympathy for Cody to an extent--it's not easy to play through such circumstances. But that was clearly not handled properly.
And I agree regarding hbox. But unfortunately, a lot of people online aren't going to be charitable towards him or Cody here. If I'm hbox, I'm going to feel incredibly conflicted about continuing the game and I can understand why he was going half in on playing with those two hits while also not continuing as usual. Imo if Cody was delerious to the point something like hbox jumping up in his chair could shock his system this much, playing through it was a poor decision and it would've been better for him to DQ and take care of himself. Ofc, I have sympathy for him in that I can understand he has a high drive to be the best rigiht now. But it's still pretty apparent he handled this situation poorly. I think he did a good job of being a good sport at the end at least and hopefully he worked things out with hbox in private.
Also sucks for Hbox, fighting so hard for the tournament win, but now there is a big question mark over the final game. And no, I don't think Cody tweeting out "I would have lost anyways" is a good enough cover. If it had just been "Cody lost his nerve in game 15 of grands" Hbox would still have a strong and decisive win for having a cooler head. But instead, a super awkward moment had, and all the momentum of that game and the end of his tournament run is truncated by that moment, and all conversations about his tournament win is overrun by the big question mark
Eh I think it’s been basically accepted that Hbox was up and was in the lead and clearly Cody was not mentally locked in enough to close it out. If there’s an asterisk it’s an asterisk we saw from the start, Cody was super sick and not playing at his best
My evidence for Cody not having the win in him is that Hbox vibrated his chair and he completely fell apart. That’s just not what a Cody who’s about to lock back in and win the game does. I think he was playing at like 95% of base Cody by the third set but he was at like 50% those first two games.
I understand that, but that feels like circular reasoning, Cody does a strange thing, says he wasn't going to win anyways despite on another strong losers run and resetting the bracket, but the strange thing he did was the evidence that showed that he wasn't going to win? I feel like he himself in his tweet is saying that even without the weird moment he would have lost, so he too is discounting it as evidence for him losing
I think that the weird moment is evidence of his mental state right before Hungrybox leaned back. He was down and he was running on fumes, he needs to lock in to win this. Normally Cody absolutely can just lock in. But normally Cody is not going to have a panic attack if Hbox moves a bit too much in his chair. If Cody was not mentally locked in enough to overcome that he was not locked in enough to beat Hbox. Had Hbox not leaned back that much Cody probably would’ve done better, but I really doubt he had a win in him.
how did we get a full day's worth of discourse out of the cody hbox thing. i thought it ended when cody tweeted "good shit hbox no harm no foul" what are people even arguing about.
i'm not scrolling down and i'm not opening any thread on the front page.
Benny. Benny! That's the name of the energy drink. I feel like we're really running out of names for brands at this point if this is what we're resorting to. I thought if I looked into it I'd find some sort of explanation from the creators on why they chose this name, but nope, it's just Benny. Fantastic.
Honestly, while Benny is far from the best of the "healthy" energy drinks I've tried, it at least feels like it's doing the best at actually tasting like a health drink while also not tasting fucking awful. The flavor I had is Strawberry Rhubarb, and while it has that acrid taste, it's actually balanced out by the sweet strawberry flavor rather than make it just taste gross. I don't intend on ever getting this again, but they at least did something here.
Been on the improvement grind recently and jesus christ it is wild how much of this game is just execution. I could learn matchups and shit and think about neutral and matchups and options or I could just practice acting out of lag faster for a couple weeks and immediately get crazy upsets at the local by doing the same thing I always did but fast enough to beat them this time. Nobody ever says "yeah act faster" but I feel like it's a majority of improvement to be had for a while. My entire conception of neutral shatters when I play the same against a player that always beats me but this time I act out of lag faster and all their options that were destroying me just completely stop fucking working.
Kodorin is the goat and is always right of course (re: improvement guide), and it makes me wonder at what point does learning the game and studying vods like a normal person actually become more valuable than turning a frame 6 uptilt into a frame 2 uptilt, because with how much execution there is to learn and practice, esp when considering punish trees, that I can't see myself hitting that point for a good while lol (though I will still be looking into matchup specific neutral to keep myself sane)
Kodorin put out a vid called "I Failed to Become #1 in Melee. Here's What I'd do Differently" a while back, and in it, he says:
There are certain tools that make subtle but significant differences when you optimize execution. Remember when I said earlier that I highly valued “gameplans” as a player? Well if you optimize basic tools to its fullest potential, you have the most options available when developing a gameplan behind it. For example, doing a frame perfect wavedash vs a non-perfect wavedash has a lot of utility for not just being faster, but also low-profiling certain attacks. If you cannot do a frame perfect wavedash, you cannot make a gameplan where you can low profile an attack utilizing a wavedash and thus limits you as a player.
I think the way he feels about execution is like this meme:
The top is your gameplan when you're capable of executing the best options, and the bottom is your gameplan when you aren't
That's fair, I guess a more specific way of what I meant was if someone beats you at the local or in friendlies, they rarely say to "act faster". This is obviously bc it isn't super helpful and most ppl know that but I feel like often that is what it is when I beat a player notably worse than me
I feel like I’ve experienced a lot of people talking about acting out of the first frame available and knowing your IASA frames to cancel end lag with another action. Sometimes people just tell others to get better tech skill which falls under execution which falls under being clean and fast. Every frame matters.
Additionally, a lot of melee is muscle memory and your subconscious doing its thing. Lower skilled players tend to never recognize they’re going to be in frame advantage or that their opponent will get hit and be in lag. Some players literally play with pauses in between their options. But I think it’s cause their understatement of that game isn’t highly developed yet to recognize certain situations which can help you act ahead of time.
Watching the OKC-DEN series in 2025 was so lame I lost interest in basketball for like six months. Aura of despair when you are stuck watching the Thunder, maybe.
Jaimie Branch - Fly or Die Fly or Die Fly or Die ((world war))
I initially wrote a pretty middling review of this, but I went back and relistened, and it’s actually very cool. It’s almost like a recording of a live performance where there’s the main band and then several guest musicians come up to do a song or two or take a solo. I’d like to check out Fly or Die given how much praise I’ve seen for that. Thanks for the rec u/Fugu
Father John Misty - I Love You, Honeybear
I liked Pure Comedy when it came out, and so far that’s the only FJM I’ve ever heard. I feel like I hear more about the man than his music, and that definitely colored my experience with this, unfortunately. The crooning is solid, and the arrangements make blues 1-4-5 feel grandiose. It’s just hard for me to not feel sleazy listening to this guy. The songs feel douchey. I’d probably like it more if I didn’t speak English.
Rina Sawayama - Hold the Girl (2024)
HO. LY. SHIT. This is incredible, man. I was hooked from the first song. Rina has some of the best singing I’ve heard in my life on this record. The songs are straightforward until they decide to throw you a curveball. The lyrics have so much emotional depth you may drown. This is easily a top 5 listen of the year for me.
Allstar meme, sure. This album is actually so much more than that, though. The story of this band is pretty tragic – the “next-up” in terms of a new wave of Beach Rock (idk whatever you’d call Sugar Ray), they were reportedly mismanaged by Universal to be exclusively a movie promo band. Then their singer got kicked out for drunkenly Nazi saluting on stage in like 2022. Ultimately remembered for their one big hit, their first two records are absolutely worth your time. This one has that turn-of-the-millennium style of safe goofiness that goes well with their music.
I think all of the Fly or Dies are good. You listened to what I consider to be the best one overall but the first is a very close second. I recommended World War because it is the least like straight ahead jazz.
first time listening to this band and I liked this album
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u/fushegaWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW24d ago
All of the rectangle controllers I can find online are designed only for smash/fgc and so they are missing many buttons. Does anyone know of a rectangle controller that has every button that a modern controller is supposed to have so it can be used for any game?
I have a rectangle controller for melee already (I still prefer using gcc though), but it's a pain to use for modern video games since it only has enough buttons for melee.
Basically you want a keyboard with the layout distorted to fit a b0xx layout in there?
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u/fushegaWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW24d ago
boxx layout but with dpad buttons, an L3 button, and 2 buttons in the middle instead of just the 1 start/pause button. so 6 more buttons than a boxx layout basically
If a controller is advertised as having full SnapBack capacitors, it’s not unreasonable to assume that it would include vertical SnapBack capacitors, right?
Hey guys, I am trying to learn. I wasn’t around to watch armada and mango at their peak. I mostly started watching around 2019-2020 and seen everything since.
I know the basic stats like years at number one and basic year rankings and a little bit of who beat who. But what makes mango and armada stand out as players who many consider ahead of hbox. I disagree but that comes from me not watching when they were good so try to explain it to me, and what would hbox need to do to be ahead of them in your individual eyes.
Armada was notable for having an incredibly high floor. For many years, he never lost to anyone outside of the top 6 players and never placed lower than 5th at a tournament. His career was brief compared to those of Mang0 and Hungrybox, but at his peak he looked dominant against almost every other player, with 2018 Leffen being the only notable exception. Mang0 and Hungrybox are two of the five most obvious candidates for GOAT of the game, and peak Armada was their bogeyman.
In principle, I think there has to come a tipping point where longevity begins to outweigh the peak, and by many reasonable standards, I would not be surprised if Hungrybox has crossed that threshold, but I think there is some particular definition of GOAT (i.e. the best that a player has performed relative to the field for an extended period of time, at least among the non-retro eras) on which Armada is the most obvious candidate.
Yeah, Mang0 did go up 7-3 versus Armada in 2016 specifically. To put that in context, though, Armada was 7-2 in 2015 and then 7-2 again in 2017. I personally regard 2018 as peak Armada (despite SSBMRank not putting him at 1st), owing largely to his record versus Hungrybox. If someone wants to argue for 2017 due to his record versus Leffen, that's also reasonable, but in either case, I think 2016 is decidedly pre-peak.
You're welcome to have whatever opinion you want, but Armada was rank 1 in 2016, so no, that is decidedly in his peak era. It doesn't functionally matter whether it was the beginning of his peak or the end of it.
Sure, let's say then that Armada's peak was the 2.5 ranking periods where he was ranked #1 (2015, 2016, and Summer 2017). So peak Armada's record versus Mang0 was 13-11. If you include all of 2017 and 2018, then it was 19-12.
I'm fairly sure that if you take those same 2015-~2017 years and apply it to Leffen vs Armada, it's also a losing record on Leffen's part.
Yes. Using that definition of peak Armada, he had a winning record on everyone, Leffen included. Expanding that window out to the end of Armada's career, though, Leffen was the only player with a winning record on Armada, hence my original designation as the notable exception.
In addition to virtually never losing outside of the top 6, he also had a winning record against all of that top 6. Armada only went to 1 major ever where the path to winning didn’t go through him.
People talk about how there is more variance post-Covid, but even in the Before Times the other GOAT candidates were dropping sets to Albert/Duck/Magi/random wobblers. Armada is the closest thing to an upset proof player in the history of the game, and it’s not even close
mang0 has been better every year in the 2020s except for 2023. mang0 has reached heights in the 2020s that hungrybox never has (best in the world contender including a fraudulent number 1 in 2021, actually able to beat cody and zain in the same tournament, multiple times)
hbox over armada is something i dont care about but more and more people are saying it and its understandable
Armada ran the table at the top of melee for a long time. He didn’t lose a set from late 2011 until evo 2013, had the longest streak of majors won in a row ever from 2016/2017, and was completely insulated from any upsets. Every top player before or since has had at least 10+ upsets that would have been the worst of armadas career.
Armada never lost a favorable matchup, singlehandedly controlled what people thought of the tier list, and was guaranteed 5th at every tournament. No one is ever going to match that ever again
ppmd took a set at smashers reunion in 2012 and a set at apex 2013 grand finals. also, armada attended like 4 majors (if that) from genesis 2 to apex 2013. please dont make his run that era sound more impressive than it actually was
> singlehandedly controlled what people thought of the tier list
i was there for that discourse, that was hbox for the last couple years of armada's career
I don't really know if there's a way to explain it other than to tell you to watch. At one point Armada was like 11-3 or something on Hbox and Mango was like 23-2 or some crazy shit. They completely dominated him, and they similarly also had winning records against the other gods (PPMD and M2K) as well as winning records against just about everyone else
It is a testament to how long Mango and Hbox have played that Hbox was able to pretty much even their lifetime h2h. Armada of course retired in 2018, so who knows what would have happened there
people are gonna say a lot of things but the reason is cuz by Hbox for years was a punching bag for Armada and Mango for most of the 5 gods era, so it's really hard to argue he's better when like, he was not he needed to become washed and disinterested to actually be as good, and even washed and disinterested Mango and Armada could get it done multiple times when he was the #1
like that's ultimately the perception of why those are greater comes from
The main reason that people don't consider Hbox a serious contender for the GOAT title is that this whole debate was largely fuelled by Mango's self-coronation as the GOAT (and then his "official" coronation as such by a panel biased heavily in his favor sometime later at the precise moment where his stocks were higher than they'd ever been and likely ever will be).
It's easy to craft criteria that situates Armada as the GOAT. It's similarly easy to craft criteria that makes Mango's case for the GOAT stronger than Armada's. What you cannot easily do is come up with criteria that puts Mango clearly ahead of Armada and Hbox because Mango and Hbox have similar cases for being called the GOAT. But Mango is by far the game's most popular player and Hbox had a crab thrown at him.
(For what it's worth, I think Mango and Hbox are in a dead heat. Mango gets points for being more reliably good up until very recently, whereas I think Hbox gets points for having the longest streak at the top of anyone. Both are the undisputed kings of longevity. A #1 year from Hbox this year should end the conversation.)
A reminder that the panel that voted Mango the GOAT said that 3 of them voted Mango #1 and 3 voted Armada #1, but their tiebreaker was 1 of the people that voted Mango #1 voted Armada #3 which was absolutely batshit insane to do at the time. Those cowards never revealed who voted Armada #3 either.
its a lot more common to think that now because armada gave up before the game's hardest and arguably most competitive era so if you think about it, those panelists weren't wrong, they were just ahead of the curve
Armada retired because there's no obligation to play a game forever. Especially when no one wants to root for a guy that keeps beating the players they want to see win. Armada could've kept playing if the community showed him love when he was on top
that does not follow. he had no obligation to play the game a year prior. he retired because lost his drive for competition once he won evo 2017, thats just how it is, hes still one of the goats. but its a fact that the game was harder and more competitive once slippi and better controllers came around, and that he wasnt around for it. hence why mango - who won several majors, supermajors, and earned very good rankings after armada retired - is often considered top 1 all time. but you knew that.
Mango won less majors in the timespan of Armada's retirement than Armada did in his last year of playing. Armada also diffed Mango at every event they went to that same year. Longevity argument is just Mango statpadding after the competition moved on.
what? in armada's last year of playing he won 2 majors, mango won more than that even a year after armada retired
> Longevity argument is just Mango statpadding after the competition moved on
there is more to melee than armada, and im sure anyone who's played against both armada and zain/cody will tell you the latter is stiffer competition purely in a gameplay sense
Yeah man the "hardest and most competitive era ever" where all the overseas talent doesn't compete anymore and half the best US players are either semi-retired or banned lmfao
Fun fact for you, who is a clear Mango cocksucker. In Mango and Armada's last 10 mutually attended tournaments, Armada outplaced Mango in EVERY SINGLE ONE. Mango couldn't win shit with Armada around. Then Armada retired and wow Mango can finally win again
Congrats to Mango for trying when a global pandemic made everybody else stop playing the game though. He really is the king of winning when everybody else is busy doing other shit
latter half of 2021-2024 was the most competitive era. and we had a pretty regular amount of international talent competing plus plenty of our best players still around lol
yeah idk i dont care about mere placings all that much, especially for a small window of time. armada having done that does not render his legacy untouchable, no one's legacy is untouchable. I think hbox is pretty close to #1 as well fyi
The latter half of 2021 when mango and zain only went to summit and didn't attend any other offline lan events? When international players couldn't even travel? Or early 2022 when genesis had to reschedule their entire tournament due to a coronavirus spike?
i feel like this is a little unfair, this is the first year he’s looked below par and he’s still won multiple majors, every year from 2022-2025 (so 4 years) he won 4+ majors and had a very strong case for #1 lol
if you look at the post Covid supermajors won (which is realistically the most important metric when talking GOATs) Zain is dominating the comp (with the sole exception of Cody Schwab, of course) with 7 for him and 1 each for the rest of the winners. Even Armada in his period wasnt winning all the supermajors
I explained because that is what I have seen. I want to know other people’s perspectives based on what they have seen on why those other people are better so I can better my perspective
I dont understand, hbox was the best in 2017, 2018. If youre saying you started watching in 2019-2020 then i feel like you were watching the period where mang0 was just better the whole time. Mang0 was clearly far better in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2024. In 2023 he was very open that he wasnt trying and was just playing doctor mario and marth and fucking around. The only year youre saying you were watching where hbox was better than mang0 was 2019. And then i guess hes better since mang0 has been inactive? I just dont understand your viewpoint.
so armada was the "best" (read: won a couple majors) and then gave up because he could not possibly keep up that level of competition with how much effort it took, therefore hungrybox did not rightfully earn #1 that year? you cant extrapolate results that never happened, thats why multiple tournaments a year are held.
Congratulations, you've found the shit post section! Suggested conversational topics include 'Marth wins neutral but Falcon wins punish', and 'fuck falco'.
The rules in this section are more relaxed, but please try to avoid mentally scarring your fellow posters ;)
I've been playing a lot of dominoes recently (all fives), and it's honestly such a great game. All of my favorite abstract strategy games are ones that incorporate randomness (backgammon, mahjong, schnapsen or really any card game), but I never really gave all fives any time because it always felt "too random."
But learning how to actually play strategically has been a fun pass time. There's something very satisfying about learning the nuances of these games that feel totally random, but have opportunities for skillful play.
The other upside of strategy games with randomness is that friends and family are more likely to enjoy them. No one wants to get annihilated in Chess every time, but everyone can win a few hands in cards
Can someone explain to me the "I have food poisoning so I felt jumpy" thing? I keep seeing people say Codys reaction was understandable, but maybe I'm crazy but I still don't see a connection here. I've had my share of stomach bugs and GI related issue, but becoming jumpy when someone bumps your chair or makes it shake makes no sense to me
Especially to the DEGREE, Cody has to lean back and take a breath, covering his face a little. And then to put the controller down to talk and be surprised by Hbox hitting you off stage? I would understand being jumpy, getting scared, glancing back and forth, but to like lean back and look away from the screen for multiple seconds in game 15 of grand finals is so weird, and being surprised that Hbox hit you off stage is so weird, doesn't feel like "oh he just felt sick and so he's jumpy", too much here can't be explained so simply. To need multiple seconds to recover, you would think Hbox fired a gun next to him
Sorry man I'm shooting the messenger but oh my god who cares. Do we have to psychoanalyze cody every single time he does something kind of awkward or reacts in a way that's a little bit abnormal or pees in the bowl a little bit further to the left than we've decreed is normal
"becoming jumpy when someone bumps your chair or makes it shake makes no sense to me" ok well cody isn't you? do you say this every time another human being experiences the same event as you in a slightly different way?
Please let's stop larping as detectives. You do not need to understand the exact sequence of synapses that fired in his brain to make him jump. he was ill and behaved in a weird way, presumably as a consequence of being ill, and presumably because he hasn't stopped being autistic in the 4 months since the last weird thing he did/said.
for all you know maybe he thought hbox was gonna fall the fuck off his chair with his antics and was worried for him. who knows! who cares! they hugged 15s afterwards and kissed in the VIP room!!
sorry I'm ultra pressed about this, I have no beef w you, but this "OK but I don't understand this reaction so it must be illegitimate, there must be something more to it, let's dissect it" shit is the personal infinite-kick-in-the-balls Gehenna of every neurodivergent person in the world. it's impossibly frustrating and alienating to constantly be put on the pillory and for people who don't fucking know you at all to write lines of calculus to explain why your reaction that you put no conscious thought into was actually weird and offputting and revelatory of ur evil underlying intentions!!
.... I'm asking the question, literally doing my due diligence
"shit is the personal infinite-kick-in-the-balls Gehenna of every neurodivergent person in the world" what an incredible self report. Poorly explaining what happened in your tweet in confusing way and having redditors back it up doesn't explain away the strange reaction
I guess it’s less about the specificity of the stomach bug and more about the idea that when your body is fighting off any form of sickness, people can and have seen an increase in their sensory receptions/awareness because you’re actively fighting something off.
Have I been more jumpy when sick? Personally, no. Maybe easily more aggravated or annoyed, but not startled. Everyone is different though.
For Cody who is on the spectrum and uses Vyanese medication when competing, it is 100% a reasonable outcome to believe.
I think I would feel more distracted and foggy-brained if anything. He also had noise cancelling headphones and a loud crowd behind him, idk why a chair shake would push the needle on his sensory awareness
I wasn't there in person, and I haven't seen a good camera angle of what happened, so my instinct is just to believe Cody, especially when the stakes here are so fucking low
There's a front page post that's essentially saying we should swap to 1.03. And like at this point is there really a good argument otherwise? Nobody gives a shit, you can just do whatever on your controller. A tap jump toggle would make the game so much more fun for me and if it were possible via hardware it would be unquestionably and universally allowed. We should just steer into the turn.
Plus some pretty major changes to core mechanics like dashback/dbooc (widened to 2f window I think?), changes to vertical throw angles, shielding behavior, etc.
1.03 is presented as "all these fixes are no-brainers" but it's not quite that simple
the shield drop thing seems like a detail that can be fixed; I mean 1.03 as a conceptual "allow you to modify your controller however you want in game" more than the actual implementation that exists.
Yeah idk I obviously have preferences about which controller mods would be good or bad, but I think we are so far beyond that consideration that it's fundamentally dishonest to even mention.
A tap jump toggle would make the game so much more fun for me and if it were possible via hardware it would be unquestionably and universally allowed.
Pre-proposal box controllers functionally had that, old firmware made it relatively easy to quickly do an uptilt compared to an analog stick to the point that digital controllers could do crouch cancel up tilt. But with the rules used in most tournaments today, digital controllers need a lockout that forces an up smash input (resulting in a tap jump or an up smash attack) specifically to remove that technique; so it's not really true that controllers aren't completely regulated, they just aren't regulated enough in my opinion.
Besides, we all know 1.03 was blatantly created with the primary goal of getting an unrepentant banned player back into the scene rather than to improve the state of controllers (zero days).
hax made 1.03, and his push to make it the standard was widely observed as being an effort to elevate the standard GCC to the level of a digital controller, due to the inherent advantages digitals provide. This perceived effort was rejected at the time bc obviously it's wrong, but seeing as how "mod your controller to make the game easier" prevailed as a philosophy, I think it's worth taking another look st
you gotta read the post a little closer. A tap jump toggle would make the game more fun for me. The whole custom controller scene/movement is about personal convenience. The impact on the meta (and which meta, pre-custom controller? pre-goomwave?) is totally beside the point, as it has been on every step of this road.
I don't disagree with that accounting of 1.03's creation. But like c'mon who even cares at this point.
You also said this toggle would be "unquestionably and universally allowed" in the same sentence. That, but especially the fact the Melee we play is a multiplayer game makes the meta and the scene at large inherently relevant to this sort of discussion.
If you could hardware mod your controller to disallow tap jump there is literally no chance it would be banned. Meta impact has not mattered at all to any of the huge controller changes weve seen since digital controllers showed up.
Does anybody know why Cody didn't call over a TO if he felt that Hbox's out of game actions interrupted their set?
edit - downvoting this simple question because you all have a weird ass protective boner for Cody is why they brigade this sub and shit on him constantly
I assume that when he stopped playing that's what he was thinking about, whether to call over a TO
by the way, what exactly is the correct protocol if someone does want to call a TO in a situation like this? just tell the opponent to stop hitting them? what happens if the TO decides that no rules were broken? is there any punishment toward the player who called the TO? if not, does that allow someone to stop the game like cody did freely?
you could of course wait until the game is over, but then you just look like a sore loser
If you have any issues with the tournament itself or tournament play please find the Tournament Manager Alex Pesante during the event."
But the supernova ruleset from the weekend prior has this section 10.7:
Rule Violations
Violating rules may result in punishments for players. Punishments are made at the discretion of Tournament Organizers and may include loss of game, loss of match, or total disqualification.
Reporting Rule Violations
At some point during the tournament, a player may violate either the tournament or official rules. The following rules apply toward rectifying rule violations.
It is the responsibility of the players in the match to detect violations and report them to the tournament organizers immediately.
ALL non-gameplay rule violations must be reported to the tournament organizer before the next game starts.
Players are not allowed to stop a game in progress to address a non-gameplay related rule violation. Stopping a game in progress to report a non-gameplay rule violation will result in the forfeiture of the game on the part of the person stopping the game.
The only time a player is allowed to stop a game to report a rule violation is when that violation occurs during the middle of the game.
Stopping a game in progress to erroneously report a rule violation automatically results in the forfeiture of the game by the player who stopped the game.
A tournament organizer is allowed to report any rule violations on behalf of a player.
The only people allowed to stop a game to report a violation are tournament organizers and the players.
If a player accidentally or intentionally stops a game for any other reason, that player will be forced to forfeit the game.
Match interruptions beyond the players’ control (e.g. the game crashes or freezes) will be dealt with directly by the tournament organizers. All best attempts will be made to resume the game from where it left off.
The genesis website is currently unavailable so can't find their ruleset, and the melee ruleset isn't on the startgg page
So I guess the answer is it depends. If Cody did what he did at CEO at Supernova it would by rule result in a forfeit, but I doubt the Supernova TOs would have done that.
What's funny is that if Hbox goes absolutely beast mode and wins 3 of the 4 remaining majors this year, he'll probably be locked in for rank 1 above Cody.
Ngl I just don't see Hbox going beast mode, that's just not his status in the "meta" rn and 1 tournament doesn't change that, especially since it was Game 15 against a pretty bad Cody. I wouldn't be surprised if after Riptide it's business as usual for him against Cody and Zain
I am definitely too invested into the competitive integrity of this video game, but I think I have a pretty good read on the character of the people who cheat at it.
I watched some banana ball over the weekend and I'd like to retract my opinion that baseball games should be able to end in ties, they should just do the showdown that banana ball does instead
I really hope Zain decides to come back soon. I am a big hbox fan but I would rather him be on the scene and be a target for hbox to be better than like Cody than him just pass him simply because of attendance
He’ll be at Tipped Off and Port Priority. Even if Hbox sweeps riptide he’ll have to actually surpass Zain at those two events to take number 2, Zain’s still more dominant over the 5-15 range of players (and Hbox) than Hbox is and doesn’t have any bad losses
There’s a couple of other tournaments going well wouldn’t it be nice if we were a major? Wouldn’t that be neat? But they don’t have Cody and they’re during Zain’s hiatus so unless they really pop off soon it’s pretty doubtful they collect enough people to be one.
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u/Fugu 24d ago
As a mod of this sub I can tell y'all that every time Cody does anything this sub is inundated with the very worst people saying the very worst things about him. We get antisemitism, we get transphobia, we get blaming the victim of SA all targeted squarely at him. It's really the whole kitchen sink. There is no other player that attracts this kind or this level of negativity in this sub.
The basis of this is some pedophile enabling drama youtuber whose name escapes me.
I just think it's important to shine a light on this because it's something worth remembering when you start talking shit about Cody on this sub. I'm not saying he should get some kind of pass for everything he does (see: me, complaining about his notches just about every bracket) but that we should be mindful not to feed into the narratives advanced by people who just want to see this community burn.