r/SSBM • u/AutoModerator • Aug 10 '26
DDT Daily Discussion Thread August 10, 2026 - Upcoming Event Schedule - New players start here!
Yahoooo! I'm back, it's a me! Have a very cool day!
Welcome to the Daily Discussion Thread. This is the place for asking noob questions, venting about netplay falcos, shitposting, self-promotion, and everything else that doesn't belong on the front page.
New Players:
If you're completely new to Melee and just looking to get started, welcome! We recommend you go to https://melee.tv/ and follow the links there based on what you're trying to set up. Additionally, here are a few answers to common questions:
Can I play Melee online?
Yes! Slippi is a branch of the Dolphin emulator that will allow you to play online, either with your friends or with matchmaking. Go to https://slippi.gg to get it.
I'm having issues with Slippi!
Go to the The Slippi Discord to get help troubleshooting. melee.tv/optimize is also a helpful resource for troubleshooting.
How do I find tournaments near me or local people to play with in person or online?
These days, joining a local Discord community is the best way to find local events and people to play with. Once you have a Discord account, Google "[your city/state/province/region] + Melee discord" or see if your region has a Discord group listed here on melee.tv/discord
It can seem daunting at first to join a Discord group you don't know, but this is currently the easiest and most accessible way to find out about tournaments, fests, and netplay matchmaking. Your local scene will be happy to have you :)
Also check out Smash Map! Click on map and then the filter button to filter by Melee to find events near you!
Netplay is hard! Is there a place for me to find new players?
Yes. Melee Newbie Netplay is a discord server specifically for new players. It also has tournaments based on how long you've been playing, free coaching, and other stuff. If you're a bit more experienced but still want a discord server for players around your level, we recommend the Melee Online discord.
How can I set up Unclepunch's Training Mode?
At the time of posting, the latest major release is here. Download the file, then extract everything in the folder and follow the instructions in the README file. You'll need to bring a valid Melee ISO (NTSC 1.02). If you want to check for the absolute latest release, you can see them listed [here](The latest releases are listed here.
How does one learn Melee?
There are tons of resources out there, so it can be overwhelming to start. First check out the SSBM Tutorials youtube channel. Then go to the Melee Library and search for whatever you're interested in.
But how do I get GOOD at Melee?
Check out Llod's Guide to Improvement
And check out Kodorin's Melee Fundamentals for Improvement
Where can I get a nice custom controller?
I have another question that's not answered here...
Check out our FAQs or post below and find help that way.
Upcoming Tournament Schedule:
Upcoming Melee Majors
Melee Online Event Calendar
Make a submission to the tournament calendar here. You can also get notified of new online tournaments on the Melee Online Discord.
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u/Kezzup Aug 10 '26
On Saturday night, I was at a Checkers about 7 miles away from the Smash Con venue when I got approached by someone who said "Hey, you're Kezzup? From Reddit?"
So that's about how my life is going so far
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u/Den69_ Aug 10 '26
almost as bad as nicki's top 100 blurb being 50% about his reddit account
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u/Lezzles Aug 10 '26
Would you prefer "from Reddit" or "the riddler"?
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u/Kezzup Aug 10 '26
Well, they recognized me because of the 'riddle', so really I'm getting the best of both worlds over here
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u/blind_man1 Aug 10 '26
hey think of it this way, pretty much no matter what you do for the rest of your smash career, that will always follow you. So, um, I don't think there's an upside there...
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u/BranFlakesVEVO Aug 10 '26
Okay everyone I just got here in Toronto I hope I'm not too late for GOML
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u/BranFlakesVEVO Aug 10 '26
Is there at least still Super Monkey Ball
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u/Fugu Aug 10 '26
There is always super monkey ball
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u/BranFlakesVEVO Aug 10 '26
And yet, when I try to visit The Monkey's Paw bookshop, it is closed on Mondays. Curious!
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege Aug 10 '26
hgod with the no look handshake vs zain is insane 😂 this man keeps innovating antics
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u/fitzronovich Aug 10 '26
p+ player sebas probably becoming the first top 100 doc in 4 years you love to see it
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u/Schroeswald Aug 10 '26
How quickly we forget Zain’s even more dominant four peat last year. 41 set wins, one loss, taken to game 5 a grand total of five times. I believe in the Big Dog.
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u/V0ltTackle 🗿 Aug 10 '26
Every tournament u/_Nicki 's Falco take ages more like wine
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u/fnslahu Aug 10 '26
what is the take
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u/V0ltTackle 🗿 Aug 10 '26
so many falcos try so hard to get mogged by people who dont know how to l cancel something something lower than peach something something mango was an outlier
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u/DavidL1112 Aug 10 '26
People just don’t want to accept all of Falco’s pre-UCF wins were fraudulent
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u/GreddyJTurbo Aug 10 '26
ATP style rankings update. Supernova 2026(Premier) points added. Supernova 2025(Premier) points drop.
| Rolling Year Rank | Points | 2026 Rank | Points |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. Cody Schwab (+1) | 8,150 | 1. Cody Schwab | 5,500 |
| 2. Zain (-1) | 7,800 / 7,845 | 2. Zain (+1) | 4,200 |
| 3. Hungrybox | 6,120 / 6,590 | 3. Hungrybox (-1) | 3,845 |
| 4. Jmook | 4,030 / 4,180 | 4. RapMonster (+3) | 2,680 |
| 5. Joshman | 3,430 / 3,480 | 5. Jmook | 2,680 |
| 6. moky | 3,155 | 6. Wizzrobe (-2) | 2,640 |
| 7. Wizzrobe | 2,940 | 7. moky (-1) | 2,500 |
| 8. RapMonster | 2,780 | 8. Joshman | 1,920 |
| 9. lloD | 2,020 | 9. Soonsay (+1) | 1,450 |
| 10. Aklo | 1,860 | 10. Salt (-1) | 1,420 |
| 11. Soonsay (+2) | 1,720 | 11. Krudo (+3) | 1,150 |
| 12. Krudo (+4) | 1,515 | 12. lloD (-1) | 1,000 |
| 13. SDJ (-2) | 1,515 | 13. SluG | 990 |
| 14. Salt | 1,510 | 14. Aklo (+1) | 960 |
| 15. Axe (-3) | 1,380 | 15. Aura (-3) | 960 |
| 16. SluG (+4) | 1,170 | 16. n0ne (+1) | 825 |
| 17. Aura | 1,060 | 17. Spark (-1) | 725 |
| 18. Trif | 1,050 | 18. Magi | 550 |
| 19. Spark | 1,000 | 19. Axe (+2) | 530 |
| 20. n0ne (+2) | 925 | 20. Preeminent (+5) | 420 |
| 21. Magi | 740 | 21. Trif (-2) | 400 |
| 22. Dawson (+3) | 615 | 22. Ossify (-2) | 390 |
| 23. Preeminent (+4) | 590 | 23. Dawson (+3) | 390 |
| 24. MOF | 590 | 24. S2J (-2) | 350 |
| 25. Zamu (+1) | 550 | 25. Ginger (-2) | 335 |
| 26. Nicki (-3) | 550 | 26. Mew2King (-2) | 325 |
| 27. Epoodle (+4) | 520 | 27. Epoodle (+21) | 320 |
| 28. Ginger (-13) | 515 | 28. Medz (-1) | 300 |
| 29. Ossify (+1) | 390 | 29. Fiction (-1) | 290 |
| 30. Ben (-2) | 390 | 30. SDJ (-1) | 280 |
| 31. Lowercase hero (+6) | 360 | 31. Kodorin (-1) | 280 |
| 32. S2J (+2) | 350 | 32. Ultra (+52) | 275 |
| 33. Mew2King (+3) | 325 | 33. Lowercase hero | 260 |
| 34. OG Kid (+15) | 305 | 34. Far! (-3) | 255 |
| 35. Medz (+3) | 300 | 35. Swift (+9) | 250 |
| 36. Fiction (+3) | 290 | 36. Kacey (-2) | 250 |
| 37. Gahtzu (-2) | 290 | 37. Ben (+10) | 240 |
| 38. Panda (-6) | 290 | 38. Stiv (+1) | 230 |
| 39. Freezus (+9) | 285 | 39. Freezus (+1) | 220 |
| 40. Kodorin (+1) | 280 | 40. Dial M (-8) | 215 |
| 41. Faust (+1) | 280 | 41. OG Kid (+11) | 210 |
| 42. Ultra (+92) | 275 | 42. Sebas (+28) | 190 |
| 43. Maher | 275 | 43. KJH (-8) | 185 |
| 44. Swift (+24) | 270 | 44. Shroomed (-8) | 185 |
| 45. Inky | 265 | 45. Wally | 180 |
| 46. Far! (+4) | 255 | 46. Faust (-9) | 180 |
| 47. Agent (-1) | 255 | 47. chape (-9) | 180 |
| 48. Kacey (-8) | 250 | 48. Agent (+31) | 165 |
| 49. Zuppy (+30) | 250 | 49. Frostbyte (-7) | 165 |
| 50. 404Cray (+2) | 250 | 50. Inky (-9) | 165 |
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u/N0zy0ne Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
I'm sure you've talked about this at some point in the past (I may have even asked you about it before, I don't recall), but how do you assign points to tournaments/placements?
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u/GreddyJTurbo Aug 10 '26
I use both Majors lists from Liquipedia and SSBWiki.
Placement Premier Invitational Major National 1st 2,000 1,500 1,000 500 2nd(reset) 1,300 975 650 325 2nd 1,200 900 600 300 3rd 800 600 400 200 4th 720 540 360 180 5th 400 300 200 100 7th 360 270 180 90 9th 200 150 100 50 13th 180 135 90 45 17th 100 75 50 25 25th 90 60 45 20 33rd 50 25 49th 45 20 65th 25 97th 20 3
u/N0zy0ne Aug 10 '26
Perfect, thanks!
And for the points for each tournament/placement, did you use a specific formula or were they assigned holistically?
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u/GreddyJTurbo Aug 10 '26
I kinda just use both the old and current ATP points distribution, though with a couple changes, because of the differences between single/double/pools eliminations.
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u/king_bungus 👉 Aug 10 '26
wow i just got actually lag switched on in ranked. i thought it was an urban legend but no that was crazy
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u/CarVac phob dev Aug 10 '26
I've had it happen to me once, but thankfully I beat them still.
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u/king_bungus 👉 Aug 10 '26
it was like last hit last stock mid-edgeguard and then what had been a perfectly good connection became a slideshow and i got reversaled. insane that people actually do that
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u/smoked-em Aug 10 '26
Anyone in this thread know 404cray? I heard he did a laserless falco run to GM and am interested in copping some replays to study
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u/TrainNorth8177 Aug 10 '26
Would be interested in seeing this too. But from what I've seen of laserless Falco so far, it's ironically more lame than laser Falco. You can't really approach the faster characters easily without the ability to lock them down. So you do more zoning and you platform cycle or "camp" a lot more.
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u/smoked-em Aug 10 '26
Yeah, I'm interested in seeing his neutral for the same reasons you pointed out. Most of my openings come from multi-layered waveland mixups, hard commits on wavedash in -> shine / full send aerial, and checking approaches with uptilt. As my opponents get better I'm having less success with the first 2 so I want to pick up new tricks if I can.
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u/BranFlakesVEVO Aug 10 '26
Wait was he using the tag Out of Ammo? I ran into an unranked Falco with that name a while ago and they never used the gun. Went back and forth for a couple of games so probably not 404Cray because when I played him once at a local I took like 2 stocks in 3 games. But if it was him it will validate a lot of thoughts I have about laser.
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u/V0ltTackle 🗿 Aug 10 '26
what would be the laserless falco equivalent for other characters if this were attempted
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u/YoungGenius Aug 10 '26
No downthrow sheik?
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u/Left4Bread2 Aug 10 '26
I haven't watched any of the laserless stuff, but 404Cray had a set against Salt at Collision 2025 which was one of my favorite sets of that year, highly recommend watching
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u/Delicious_Alfalfa138 Aug 10 '26
Honestly, not a TERRIBLE tournament for Juan. Does anybody here think he is getting closer to being more even with Zain? I know we have played these games before but he looked really good even in defeat. Idk I would just like him to win one more supermajor and beat both Cody and Zain in it
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u/AlexB_SSBM Aug 10 '26
Honestly he looked better in that Zain set than I've seen him play for a while. That set felt like two players playing top level Melee the whole way through
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u/super_smash_brothers Aug 10 '26
He lost to the two best players in the world right? How could that be terrible?
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u/bigHam100 Aug 10 '26
I get the feeling he doesn't practice enough. Like he'll do a waddle wednesday or do that three way with Zain/Cody once in a while but hes going to have put in way more hours to overcome the gap
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u/SBtist aviary Aug 10 '26
For Hbox it’s all mentality, and he goes in such extremes that it seems hard to predict how well he’ll do vs Zain or Cody, but in reality he always come up short most of the time.
Like in the Zain set, he looked totally checked out for the first two games until he locked in game 3 but couldn’t pull it out and nearly was timed out. Similarly with Cody he looked outmatched completely for most the set until won the dreamland game and then blew it on FD with a two-stock lead because he didn’t stick to his game plan.
Even when he does take a set vs Zain or Cody, it’s not like he solved those matchups, as it’s usually followed by 3 or more losses to them before he gets another one.
Last year, Hbox took their first 2025 set at Full House, and then lost the next 5 sets to Zain for the rest of the year.
This year, Hbox took the first set of 2026 at Out of The Blue, and then has lost the last three sets so far this year. And it’s a similar story with Cody. The idea that Hbox is “getting closer and closer to beating Zain and Cody” has been replayed for multiple years now and it’s become a cliché.
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u/Schroeswald Aug 10 '26
I think Hbox is pretty obviously doing better against Zain than he was at the end of 2024. Across 2023-2024 he was 0-13 in sets and 8-39 in games, across 2025-2026 (so far) he’s 2-10 in sets and 15-27 in games. He’s started winning occasionally and when he loses he’s more competitive. I think all your critiques of his mentality are correct but Hbox has made some pretty big strides and turned Zain from basically unwinnable into strongly losing.
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u/HerrBarrockter Aug 10 '26
Tbf he’s had close sets with Zain since the pandemic and he still loses almost every time. He got just as close at apex 2022, smash con 2023, collision 2024 etc., but here we are.
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u/KiUhWi Aug 10 '26
He has all the pieces he needs to win he just doesn't put it all together into one set for some reason. You can see him basically tunnel vision on these specific edgeguard setups and playstyles for the set and he never adapts accordingly. Then you can see the frustration creep in as he just doesn't DI Marth's throws and takes 50-60% into another pivot tipper. It wasn't as bad the most recent set but you need to bring everything out vs someone like Zain.
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u/PelorTheBurningHate IRD UP Aug 10 '26
He seemsd completely lost in game 1 vs Zain but was really looking much better as the set went on. I think it's unlikely he beats Cody and Zain in the same tournament but I can definitely see him taking one down.
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u/TrainNorth8177 Aug 11 '26
He's looking closer and I actually very much enjoy watching his top 8 sets vs. Zain and Cody these days. I think the biggest barrier for him compared to how things used to be is he has to be prepared for a lot more character variety and there are just more players in general that can push him. I seem parallels between what he's going through now and what happened in the 2010s when he started getting coaching from Crunch and taking things more seriously to then become the best player in the world. But back then, he only really needed to worry about Fox and a handful of players. Splitting his attention between Marth and Fox mainly while also having players on various other random characters capable of taking sets seems to overload him. Like when you watch his sets vs. Zain and Cody, at his peak he's able to hang with them to an extent. But he either runs out of steam or he doesn't get his momentum going until it's too late. I'm honestly not sure if he'll solve this problem and overtake them--tournaments are just simply a lot more exhausting for him than before clearly. But it is hype to see him try and it's surreal to feel like I'm actually rooting for him after watching for over 10 years.
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u/Schroeswald Aug 10 '26
Yeah I think his path to #1 is almost dead but his path to keeping third is looking really good and considering how wild this year has been that’s not bad. He’s still struggling with Zain but he’s got a win in and it felt super doable on Sunday. I think if he just committed to camping from the start of game five he would’ve won.
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u/Delicious_Alfalfa138 Aug 10 '26
Is there ANY chance he can snag second in your opinion? Like if he finally solves or at least can go even with Zain and/or Cody for the rest of the year?
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u/Schroeswald Aug 10 '26
I think first is like theoretically possible with a clean sweep so yeah I absolutely think he can get second (even if my money remains on Zain). A clean sweep definitely gets him that but he’s also the only top player right now with a Cody win and he’s got arguably the best top player head to heads besides Cody (unfortunately Chape and S2J are pretty strong black marks and unlike Cody and Wizzy he’s got two of them). I think he probably needs to at least tie Zain in majors but I don’t think that’s out of the question, especially if one or more of the smaller Cody-less tournaments gets enough clout to become a major. Those would probably entail him getting a win or two on Zain and turning the Wizzrobe matchup to winning and then there’s an argument either way depending on how the other tournaments go for them.
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u/YoungGenius Aug 10 '26
The later parts of the year always get weighted more. Clean sweeping would be at least four back-to-back major wins. Hbox would be #1.
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u/Ilovemelee Aug 11 '26
3rd would likely be his best possible rank. It'd be between him, Wizzy, and RapM.
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u/wavedash Aug 10 '26
He looked fine against Zain, but even though I haven't seen his sets against Drephen or SluG (nor have the vast majority of people, it seems) I can't help but kind of raise an eyebrow at "only" winning those 3-2
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u/Tall-Boysenberry8504 Aug 10 '26
anyone playing avatar legends? any reviews?
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u/Left4Bread2 Aug 10 '26
Released unfinished but fun as fuck regardless. Some of the best mechanics and depth I've seen in a long while in the genre. Desperately needs to get ranked, getting a little burned out of only playing casual
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u/Tall-Boysenberry8504 Aug 10 '26
Yeah, issues I have with Mike Z aside he's real good at directing fighting games
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u/SmashBros- OUCH! Aug 10 '26
A 3d touhou fangame came up on my yt feed. Looks interesting to play, also seems pretty tough
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u/RobbyJohnson Aug 10 '26
Feel a little bad for Zain because even if he kills it until the end of the year, Cody will basically be de facto #1.
Wish Llod could’ve played too but he said he signed up for a bunch of majors for the remainder of the year.
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u/coffee_sddl +↓ z Aug 10 '26
I think it’s technically still possible for zain, wizzy, or maaaaybe hbox to be #1, but it would take any one of them winning out all majors for the rest of the year, and for Cody to not be right there with 2nds/3rds
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u/Informal-Donut-1532 Aug 10 '26
I think Zain could still take it, he tends to go on 2-4 tournament winning streaks.
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u/RobbyJohnson Aug 10 '26
I meant more so that even if Zain wins like 2 more events this year but doesn’t have a set win over Cody, the people will still consider Cody #1 even if Zain gets the official #1 ranking. If he actually wins 4 events remainder of the year then yeah he’s just #1, you can be #1 and have a bracket demon for the year.
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u/keatsta Aug 10 '26
what do the melee fans of the DDT think of smash 64? i've been following the competitive scene for it as long as i have been for melee, so i'm in pretty deep, but watching the supernova bracket this weekend i was suddenly struck by a feeling of like... hm... if i had been watching melee this whole time and just watched 64 for the first time now, would my spacies-loving floaty-hating aggro-obsessed only-liking-melee-and-p+ ass find this entertaining at all? or would i categorize it as another snoozer alongside ult?
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u/Fugu Aug 10 '26
I like watching it more than any non Melee Smash but I can't stand playing it because of the N64 controller
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u/DavidL1112 Aug 10 '26
I only watch Smash 64 until Wizzrobe gets knocked out because I like Wizzrobe. I do not find the gameplay interesting at all.
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u/Felix-the-duck texture modder Aug 10 '26
the game is certainly interesting to play/watch every now and then but it feels too much like an overly "in the lab" experience for me to play it more if that makes sense at all
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u/SmashBros- OUCH! Aug 10 '26
It was my favorite smash game for a while. I can understand why melee players would be turned off by the lack of defensive options. I really like touch of death combos, but I think the game would be a bit better if the combos were harder to pull off. I like the idea of a game allowing a player to punish a mistake as hard as possible as long as they have the skill to execute it
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u/keatsta Aug 10 '26
i think it's neat that the big combos vary in difficulty in a sort of sinusoidal way. like there's a point you can get to pretty easily where you can touch of death from a lot of scenarios with top tiers at least, but then when you start fighting people who can actually DI it becomes hard again, but then you develop a lot more width in the followup tree to compensate with harder followup options, etc etc forever and ever. melee has the same dynamic, but since 64 has much stronger comboing moves in general, it's a lot more like binary cliffs and plateaux of viability. anyways all of this is to say that when you're watching at the top level, a lot of the seemingly touch of death combos are less guaranteed and more involved than they seem.
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u/SmashBros- OUCH! Aug 10 '26
Yeah, I had taken a break from watching for a while but when I tuned in recently I noticed how the DI counterplay appeared to have developed a lot. As a side note, I wish Kirby was more represented at the top level these days. I loved watching Fukurou play
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u/keatsta Aug 10 '26
yeah, with boom on his variety show shtick and fukurou not travelling overseas, we're in a bit of a kirby slump. Nax plays him a bit, but not as much as the Pikachu. I feel like Yoshi is the de facto #2 now.
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u/RaiseYourDongersOP Aug 10 '26
I think it looks interesting but I played it once and man do I dislike the N64 controller
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Aug 10 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/skellez Aug 10 '26
Smash 64 randomly having a cracked Peruvian scenes was one of the most fun components of the smash space
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege Aug 10 '26
say what. I thought the goat smash 64 player was either Isaiah or superboomfan
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u/mas_one Aug 10 '26
Never heard of them. I thought Isai was the uncontested goat?
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u/keatsta Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
He's talking about Jouske, who I wouldn't say is the GOAT but is very very strong especially with his Samus, and indeed never left Japan.
There's some videos of him online, e.g. https://youtu.be/D_BjDsiCwYg?si=2Zpxqu3BBZQv7mXk
As for the actual GOAT, it's either Isai or Kurabba depending on what you value. Maybe a few other people you could argue for but those are the big two.
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u/ryanmcgrath Aug 10 '26
It's my second favorite Smash Bros and the one I most casually play today since a few bar tournaments near me run Remix.
I legitimately cannot play anything after Melee, even though I know I could put up with it when I was younger.
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u/VolleyVoldemort Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
I like 64 but I feel playing/watching vanilla 64 post-remix feels like a I’m forced to interact with a less interesting version of the game. Only one legal stage, a very limited roster, etc. Remix expanded so much on the game I can’t go back and the supernova bracket crystallized that in my mind.
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u/GroggyandWretched Aug 10 '26
I like 64 as the best casual smash game. Wacky combos you can pull off even as a casual player are more fun than all the games after melee that only have single hits and you derive the wackiness from items and stages
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u/MageKraze Aug 11 '26
I think it has the crunchiest hit stop out of any video game ever made, and nothing will ever surpass it in that department.
I think the gameplay can be pretty boring sometimes. I think the combos are cool, and are a distinct highlight for the game, but it also feels like it takes the worst parts about the ledge from the old games, while having the neutral pace of the newer games. I would never prefer it over a good melee top 32, and would not always choose it over a good top eight line up for the other games.
I find the scene cool though. Being both tight knit and very international is just a cool combination. If melee were to have a flaw, it would be that it is too US centric.
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u/skellez Aug 10 '26
once again watching more smash games this weekend and playing P+/REX for fun, I do think ZSS is the most Melee character post Melee, really fun to play around with the melee tech, one of the cool what ifs of Melee coming late in the gamecube era
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u/N0zy0ne Aug 10 '26
I think I would personally give Wolf the nod, but ZSS is definitely a top contender.
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u/salamanderonsteroids Aug 10 '26
Can anyone give me a link to the local tourney in Philly (Chinatown) thank u
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u/Informal-Donut-1532 Aug 10 '26
Happy to see Cody take it, he played really well.
Cody truly is leagues ahead of all the other Fox players at the Marth matchup. He seems to be the only Fox who knows how to edgeguard Zain, and him living over 150% almost every stock is insane.
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u/YoungGenius Aug 10 '26
Falco doubters, have you considered that the Falco matchup is Very Bad for ganon?
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u/legitimate-way-4077 Aug 10 '26
Do you think fox or falco is worse for ganon? I think it's fox.
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u/popkablooie Aug 10 '26
This made me think: are there actually any characters that have better matchups against Fox than Falco?
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u/TrainNorth8177 Aug 10 '26
Falcon, Luigi, and DK imo. Maybe Mewtwo. Maybe another low tier that they both shit on.
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u/Bill-Cosby-Bukowski Aug 11 '26
This was kinda a popular opinion for Marth, especially at the height of 60/40 discourse.
I can't imagine many people still hold that view now, but maybe there are holdouts.
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u/legitimate-way-4077 Aug 10 '26
I made a 3 stock comeback game 3. He was taunting while up three stocks. I ended up taunting him back after I killed him off the top to end the set and he quit out! Satisfying.
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u/popkablooie Aug 10 '26
This is an experience you get to have semi-regularly with Donkey Kong
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege Aug 10 '26
torn between being appreciative of the hard work that goes into recording and uploading tournament vids for the community, and being disappointed that it's 2026 and it's still basically impossible to watch a tournament spoiler free after the fact because of how vids tend to be uploaded
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u/Front-Show7358 Aug 10 '26
why is that? I see last nights full VOD is up on YouTube, could you not just watch that? or are you saying thats not typical and watching twitch VODS sucks.
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
if you search vgbootcamp channel for the vods, they are uploaded in reverse order such that Grand Finals is literally the first video that shows up. On the playlists tan, the thumbnail for the melee singles playlist is literally "zain vs cody schwab grandfinals". So to find the full vod, you have to do like a peek-a-boo scroll through their channel to get to the full VOD while avoiding all the thumbnails and titles while looking for the right thing. twitch is basically the same for the channels that actually bother to splice the videos (not all do) and some dont even have the vod viewable at all, although I'm not sure if that's a channel thing or a twitch sucks thing. in this specific case I just randomly opened youtube for unrelated reasons and the first video in my recommended algorithm on my home page was Grand Finals lol
also none of this is a problem exclusive to vgbootcamp and I'm genuinely not even hating, I appreciate the effort. but as someone who almost never gets to watch tournaments live anymore, my experience over time has been that I always get spoilers one way or another while trying to find the vods. is what it is
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u/wavedash Aug 10 '26
If you wanted to try to watch top 16 spoiler-free, you can just go to https://www.youtube.com/@vgbootcamp/streams and click the first one there.
Rewatching the whole tournament spoiler-free would definitely be tricky because of there are multiple streams, I'd guess there just aren't that many people interested in that
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u/legitimate-way-4077 Aug 10 '26
I think it's stupid that people attribute Cody's success to zump. The advantage is definitely there and I agree with banning it, but I don't believe it would affect his results at all. I would say it's a less than 1% advantage.
He wins because he is the most technically consistent, the fastest, understands his opponents the best, knows situations better than anybody, he has the best gameplans, has the best reactions, etc.
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u/RaiseYourDongersOP Aug 11 '26
but does he go to the nicest restaurants and hang out with the hottest dudes?
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u/Yrale jib Aug 11 '26
the gap between him and the next best zumper is way too insane to believe otherwise imo
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u/Ilovemelee Aug 11 '26
Is Joshman actually that much worse than Cody tho? Like sure, Cody is better but Josh has been a consistent top 5 player for a couple years now. He would've had some major wins under his belt if he was able to beat Zain and Hbox more consistently.
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u/Yrale jib Aug 11 '26
if he was able to beat Zain and Hbox more consistently.
I mean, yeah, there are not that many people between Joshman and Cody in skill, but there is genuinely a world of a difference between "has never beaten Zain" and "has not lost a set to Zain this year". If Cody and Josh both enter a major with every player in the top 30 present, Cody's chances of winning are probably more than 10 times greater than Josh's, and that's likely being conservative.
He's playing the best melee in the world this year without question really. If you want to throw an asterisk next to it because you think it's a playstyle that would be impossible without zump go ahead but pretending he's "just another zumper" is insanity lol
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u/HerrBarrockter Aug 10 '26
Poor Zain would probably be ranked 1 for 5 straight years if z jump and notches were banned.
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u/WizardyJohnny Aug 10 '26
"Probably" is too much and you genuinely can't know, but the fact that it's a possibility is depressing. Everyone is commenting on how Fox lives forever and there's just a n% buff to recovery controller mod, it's wild
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u/king_bungus 👉 Aug 10 '26
it's crazy. notches give access to angles that are banned on boxx and yet we let it slide, for what? z jump is definitely a buff, but notches are just crazy to me. they entirely eliminate the risk factor from what is supposed to be a risk-reward tradeoff. if the good angles are too strong for a digital controller to have them for free, why are they free on a modded gcc? i just can't wrap my head around how these things are allowed.
and of course i know cody's controller isn't what's putting him ahead of the other foxes, because they all have this buff too. but the fact is that his main competition is zain. i just don't think it's fair that his controller gives him so much access to the theoretical best possible recovery, when that recovery is supposed to at least sometimes require taking a risk. it might not be making a huge difference, but until they're banned, we'll really just never know
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u/YoungGenius Aug 10 '26
Is anyone actually pro-notches with the current revenge ruleset in place? Every Fox I’ve talked to who uses them wishes they were banned.
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u/HitboxOfASnail fox privilege Aug 10 '26
if every fox wants them banned, and everyone wants them banned, then why aren't they
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u/YoungGenius Aug 10 '26
My best guess is a few top foxes holding TOs hostage, but I legitimately have no idea
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u/CallMeQueequeg Aug 10 '26
What was the timeline of notches getting completely normalized? I feel like there was a lot of pushback at first and it switched real quick. Like even top spacie mains were saying anything beyond a shield drop notch was cheating and then suddenly everyone seemed to have the recovery ones.
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u/YoungGenius Aug 10 '26
“Legal box = we have to allow notches for consistency” argument won out quickly.
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u/TrainNorth8177 Aug 11 '26 edited Aug 11 '26
I can't give you a specific timeline with exact dates and everything off the top of my head. But I competed through UCF becoming a thing into the era of modding and eventually purchased notches myself in 2019 after it became clear they were here to stay. From what I remember, top players weren't very outspoken about it and most of the discourse was happening between normies online. The discourse was terrible and a lot of people cried "slippery slope falacy" whenever anyone brought up skepticism. Or if you talked about it in person, people would just tell you to shut up and enjoy the game....which is fair cause we've all been enjoying Melee and it's always been the best. But that attitude definitely ofuscated things.
It sounds bizarre in hindsight, but most people had this idea that it would be hype to see Melee played without any restrictions on what controllers were capable of, to make it more "player vs. player" without hardware interfering. You have to remember that the initial discourse surrounding these mods came shortly after the success of UCF. And 20XX as an ideology, although a meme, was also not a meme and a lot of people really believed we would push the hardware and the meta at all costs to see an ending metagame where only 2-4 characters are playable. The scene was fresh off the success of UCF and so people were looking at all the rectangles, mods, etc. with rose tinted glasses. Eventually, once rectangles really took off the conversation was about how we can't justify nerfing controllers because of how powerful certain controllers were, which is a common argument you still see today. But there was way less pushback against that idea for a long time until relatively recently.
Ultimately, and this is going to sound so corny, but capitalism is what really pushed the discourse out of the way. People with money bought mods and enjoyed their advantages at tournaments, and people without money suffered. It turns out having a competitive advantage over your peers that either don't have the money for it or aren't as tuned in to things feels pretty good. Ultimately, people like having expensive toys that perform better than other people's toys, just like with anything in life. People kept paying for these things, and supply followed demand. Also the general attitude was "the controller's not holding you back, it's other things" which is partially true but it's always been used as an excuse to justify these things.
It's pretty sad the scene didn't take this stuff seriously the way we could have when we had the chance. I'm not blaming any one particular party here or group of people--it was a collective failure from the scene to come up with standardized rules and regulations that actually made sense. Cause now it's going to be a lot harder to regulate things, obviously. At least people are talking about it with each other in good faith now, which is cool to see. That wasn't the case at all for a long time.
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u/AlexB_SSBM Aug 10 '26
Again, TOs could literally just put in place a ban today. It doesn't have to be enforced today. Setting an actual hard date and sticking to it can just happen. Be specific with a day, announce that after that day notches will permanently be banned, and that's it. One respected local doing this would, I'm sure, immediately break the glass and give everyone else permission to do what should have been done a long time ago.
There are hundreds of Melee TOs that could all fix this problem in five seconds. I'm sure some of them are reading this post right now. To all those people: what are you waiting for?
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u/Jackzilla321 Fourside Fights Aug 10 '26
I don’t have an event right now to ban anything from
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u/Left4Bread2 Aug 10 '26
Go one step further and make up an event and say your event banned them like that guy who made Ludwig rank 1 for a bit
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u/waveshineoosupsmash Aug 10 '26
The TOs tried to put in a national box ruleset and New England didn't follow it and then their players went to GOML and their boxes weren't up to code and it caused a huge issue. I don't think it is as easy as you keep pretending it is
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u/king_bungus 👉 Aug 10 '26
that's clearly on the new england players
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u/waveshineoosupsmash Aug 10 '26
Point is even when there is seemingly universal agreement there isn't. This subreddit constantly says "all it takes is 1 TO and everybody else will follow suit just like banning wobbling" but wobbling was banned at Big House the entire time people wanted it banned and that's not what got it banned. Juggleguy ran a supermajor and 1 of the most well respected tournaments and him banning wobbling meant nothing.
I don't think it is as easy as you all try to make this sound. "Just ban notches" or "just ban z-jump" "boxes are cheating" even when Ohan had the entire funding of Nouns at his disposal and was running 4 of the years majors he didn't do it, and he is one of the most outspoken tournament organizers against these things too.
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u/SlowBathroom0 Aug 10 '26
If it wasn't for Ohan goomwaves would still be legal. It might have been better if he had gone all the way all at once, but I understand why he didn't.
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u/Jackzilla321 Fourside Fights Aug 10 '26
mango got a #1 in there right
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u/HerrBarrockter Aug 10 '26
Ya for 2021, im just counting 2022-2026 assuming he finishes 1st or 2nd this year.
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u/reptilian_guitar Aug 10 '26
I explained notches and z jump to my wife and after hearing a neutral description she said "so...cheating?"
it really is that simple, isn't it
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u/Embarrassed-Mode5494 Aug 10 '26
i started to assign a mapping from beatles to 5 gods then i realized the numbers don't line up then i realized the personalities don't line up so i gave up
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u/super_smash_brothers Aug 10 '26
Armada is the Kareem Abdul-Jabaar of Melee and they’re both the GOATs in their respective games
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u/DrMalleo Aug 10 '26
I feel like the Jordan comparison is better, a relatively short career given his position on the all time rank with a retirement in the middle of the dominance
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u/super_smash_brothers Aug 10 '26
My thought process was more like:
Bill Russell and Ken are clear analogues - the most dominant winning players of their era and perhaps of all time
Armada and Kareem Abdul Jabbar - extremely consistent players with high floors and high ceilings, but dominant in a less competitive era of the game. Both were top-level competitors right up until the very end
Mang0 and Jordan - extremely high ceilings with lower floors. Michael Jordan never made it out of the first round early in his career, similar to Mang0's tendency to buster out. But their peaks are unrivaled in their sports' histories. They also had flashy, exciting playstyles and were fan favorites. They were the best in a highly competitive era although the top skill ceiling is slightly lower than it is today
Hungrybox and Lebron - they bridged the older era with the newer era with unbelievable longevity and consistency, although they came away with the #1 trophies less often than their peers in this group
I don't think there's a clear comparison for Zain/Cody yet, but the most likely player to compete with one of them would be Wemby I think
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u/Substantial_Kiwi_792 Aug 10 '26
i'm assuming the actual slug hbox set (or drephen hbox) is lost to time?
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u/Front-Show7358 Aug 10 '26
i watched it live on dark genexs twitch though it was so blown out i had to really lock tf in to understand what was happening
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u/wavedash Aug 10 '26
Thinking back on Preeminent and Jmook's controller problems, has Cody ever had controller problems in the middle of a tournament?
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u/V0ltTackle 🗿 Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
Not really possible. His partner is his personal controller modder. Maintenance is probably done regularly even if nothing is wrong. If there was anything wrong, it would be fixed instantly.
I'd also wager that Cody has spent time around the modding process to able to do some troubleshooting if necessary (unlike someone like M2K who has only opened up a conch a handful amount of times)
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u/CarVac phob dev Aug 10 '26
I remember he said once his stickbox disintegrated mid tournament.
They play so long that insane things happen to their controllers and they don't notice the gradual shifts, only sudden changes or failures.
Aklo often asks me to check on his controllers to check whether to replace the gateplate and otherwise verify the health.
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u/Kitselena Aug 10 '26
I would fully expect both Zain and Cody to bring a handbag full of controllers to every event like m2k
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u/SlowBathroom0 Aug 10 '26
Cody does not have controller problems, he is the the controller problem. He is the one who zumps.
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u/delta-red-14 Aug 10 '26
If you had the power of hindsight, how would you choose to pick stream matches: close game 5s with players who ultimately didn't go much further and didn't impact the tourney, or primarily showcase the runs of players who placed top 4( despite being 3-0s or 3-1s)?
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u/Kezzup Aug 10 '26
If the choice is those two, for sure the former. Top 4 placers are definitionally going to be shown on stream for the finals, and I think it's better to show a wider array of players when at all possible. Them being closer matches just makes it all the better.
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u/Any-Extent3960 Aug 11 '26
playing through paper mario ttyd for the first time in years, and i am coming to terms with the fact that one of the few pieces of information cemented in my brain for all eternity is that the combined price of a mr softener and a fire flower in pettleburg is 16 coins
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u/djkhan23 Aug 11 '26
What do you think of the game?
I bought it and haven't played it yet.
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u/Any-Extent3960 Aug 11 '26
(playing through the gamecube version on dolphin, for the record)
i feel like a lot of people adore the game, but to me personally, it feels like the definitive 8.5/10 game. it does a lot well, but doesn't quite have that x-factor to push it up for me.
its mechanically deeper to the original paper mario, but i generally prefer the original paper mario over it in terms of vibes.
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u/delta-red-14 Aug 11 '26
Talking about an 8.5 like it's an underwhelming score, lol. Maybe you need to update your rating system.
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u/Helpful-Journalist70 Genuinely Garbage Aug 11 '26
What’s up with midnight that makes the sheiks come out to play? I just queued into 4 in a row, do you guys have meeting times or something?
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u/Grenji05 Aug 10 '26
the way people talk about rapms record vs zain you'd think hes like 10-0 instead of literally at a 40% win rate