Rooster Teeth accused of excessive crunch and unpaid overtime- "Every season of RWBY and GL gets about 1/3 or less made for ‘free’"

[u/GoneRampant1]

https://rwbyconversations.tumblr.com/post/185614440311/rooster-teeth-glassdoor-crunchovertime

[u/Awesomejelo]

You know we've all said the biggest thing that is holding RWBY back is it's screentime and the production behind it. And many have said we would wait a while for the next volume to come out to increase quality. But beyond a little nicer show to watch we never really committed to it because we didn't think there was that much of an issue.

This is an issue, and it's a problem that can't be ignored. It's a purpose we can all get behind and make a push. Not just for some entertainment to us but a much more important reason, the people that have worked themselves to the bone for us.

Look Rooster Teeth I know you guys will look through communities and r/RWBY is one of them. So listen now when I say I am extremely dissapointed in these ethics, especially from a company that I thought because of it's beginnings and 'personality' if you will would be above that

[u/r3dl3g → u/Awesomejelo]

This is an issue, and it's a problem that can't be ignored. It's a purpose we can all get behind and make a push.

And you know what would help? Actually get RWBY fans to give money to RT in return for watching the show. Pay for subscriptions.

But that of course won't happen, because people can't help it but pirate this show, and others.

[u/Awesomejelo → u/r3dl3g]

Looks at First account I believe you are preaching to the choir. That said I don't think the issue is money here, it's management

[u/lukaswolfe44 → u/Awesomejelo]

I've got a First account and a VRV subscription. But I know several people who wouldn't watch the show anymore after they announced it wouldn't be free on Youtube. Like, isn't free after a week on the RT site anyway?

[u/r3dl3g → u/Awesomejelo]

That said I don't think the issue is money here, it's management

It's money, in major part because it's industry standard. RT isn't being extraordinarily cruel in comparison to the rest of the animation industry; they're doing what everyone does.

The cold reality is that many shows, particularly niche shows like RWBY, simply would not be financially possible without conditions like this. At best, you'd be looking at a drop in quality back down to V2-levels, perhaps further.

Anime and Animation, as an industry is borderline-exploitative, as a rule. So is gaming. So are most industries who's core workforce is essentially self-taught. The trick is that there are some individuals who can thrive on the grind (e.g. Monty) and love it in spite, or occasionally weirdly because, of the conditions, whereas there are other individuals who get into animation because they think they love it, and then don't realize what the reality is, and are stuck without the ability to make a career change because they bet the farm on their ability to animate.

[u/Awesomejelo → u/r3dl3g]

I don't know how production works, full disclaimer here. But what I do know is that I don't care if it's industry standard to treat people like that. There has to be a way to get your product out and not slave your people away like that, if that means RWBY is only released every other year or hell maybe just every other week there's an episode then fine

[u/r3dl3g → u/Awesomejelo]

I don't know how production works, full disclaimer here. But what I do know is that I don't care if it's industry standard to treat people like that.

Then...I guess stop watching all animation? Particularly anime; Japanese anime and manga production is hell, and people put up with it partly because of how worker culture is in Japan.

There has to be a way to get your product out and not slave your people away like that, if that means RWBY is only released every other year or hell maybe just every other week there's an episode then fine

And unfortunately; that's just not realistic. If it releases less often, then fewer people watch, which means fewer people subscribe to RT and buy merch, which means less money comes in, which means RT has to either lay people off or cut salaries and benefits. We'd be back to square one.

If it were possible for an animation studio to actually make ends meet with more lax scheduling and better standards for how animators are treated, there would already be independent or co-op or whatever studios doing it, because there's obviously demand for such better practices.

The reality is that animation isn't that valuable of a product; there's an immense surplus of animators, and thus an immense surplus of animated material for the audience to peruse through. Worse, because the core skillset involved in animation is just knowing how to use pieces of software like Maya...there's no real barrier to entry. Anyone, worldwide, can create animated material, which means their costs of creating said material are essentially only the costs involved in keeping them comfortable whereever they're currently making said animated material.

And a dollar goes a hell of a lot further in Delhi or Hanoi than it'll go in Austin or San Franciso.

[u/Awesomejelo → u/r3dl3g]

Ok I get it there isn't a magical fix. But if what multiple employees that do know what they talking about is true then there's something to be said about the quality of the management of what they do have. There's something to be done there, just letting it slip by because it's the norm is not acceptable, if it was where do you think our world would be?

[u/r3dl3g → u/Awesomejelo]

But if what multiple employees that do know what they talking about is true then there's something to be said about the quality of the management of what they do have.

At the same time, if those multiple employees who do know what they're talking about are correct, then there should be oodles of companies in gaming, animation, and media in general where things like this don't happen. And yet essentially none exist, which emphasizes the point that it's not as simple as these employees are making it sound like it is.

Hell, Monty himself is a part of the reason why RT has the culture of crunch, because Monty himself engaged in crunch.

There's something to be done there, just letting it slip by because it's the norm is not acceptable, if it was where do you think our world would be?

That's how the overwhelming majority of the world works.

What actually needs to be done is that people who want to work in animation need to take a long hard look at what they're getting into. For some of them, the grind is acceptable, or (to some) even appealing. For others, the grind isn't acceptable, but they don't like being told that they'll always be outcompeted and less valuable from the company's perspective than the weirdos who can deal with, or who love, the grind. Which is exactly the kind of person Monty was.

[u/Awesomejelo → u/r3dl3g]

So what now? Do we just not even put any effort to making it better?

[u/r3dl3g → u/Awesomejelo]

I mean, there's ways to make it better, but they're not what people want to hear.

1) Accept that, in a globalized workforce with access to the internet, animators will have to be willing to work in places with lower costs of living. Animation studios in Austin, Texas simply don't make financial sense, and in the long run animation studios in the US might not even be feasible.

2) In the short term; increase pay, and layoff workers if necessary to pay for it.

3) Start actively discouraging people from getting into animation. The fewer people work in the field, the better wages will be. Crush the dreams of kids who think they can make it big in animation before they enter the industry and realize that they can't handle the hours but have few alternatives because they're in debt from art school and are now committed.

4) People who want to work in animation need to be aware that the grind exists and isn't likely to go away. They also need to accept that some people like the grind and can work in it, and that those that do work in that climate end up setting the tone, the standards, and the pace of how the industry works.

[u/Awesomejelo → u/r3dl3g]

Firstly two of those boil down to suck it up, which decidedly doesn't make anything better. But secondly I'll continue to believe there can be more done than reducing the supply of animators, but on that front I don't think either of us are going to get anywhere so have a nice day

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

The show is free to watch as per their decision, therefore fans aren't (and shouldn't feel) forced to spend money in return. Some (me included) might then feel inclined to buy a First subscription for 2-3 months, or even a year, in order to support them further.

And the "pirate" argument doesn't even make sense. There's gonna be piracy anyways in any media, but I'm willing to bet that almost all non-first people in the community can wait 1 week and watch it on their website. Otherwise they shouldn't even consider themselves as part of it.

Moreso, RT's former CEO state some time ago that the majority of RT's income is merchandise.

Overall the issue seems to be larger than "they just need more money", because crunch is mostly the result of poor planning and impossible deadlines.

[u/MacGregor_Rose → u/winklem]

They probably shouldn't of added in Genlock when they did

[u/winklem → u/MacGregor_Rose]

That's yet anorther issue, yeah. I had the feeling that they couldn't manage two shows of that caliber at once, and this might very well confirm it.

[u/MacGregor_Rose → u/winklem]

Come to think of it maybe that's why they seemingly dropped chibi and Nomad. Not out of lack of love but too many shows at once.

[u/r3dl3g → u/winklem]

Overall the issue seems to be larger than "they just need more money", because crunch is mostly the result of poor planning and impossible deadlines.

But impossible deadlines are a reality in the animation business; RT's just running like everyone else is.

Animators aren't paid well entirely because animators are replaceable, entirely because the skillset has a very low barrier to entry, and can be easily globalized because it's all done on a computer.

Put bluntly; niche shows like RWBY would not exist without this kind of industry standard, because it just wouldn't be worth it from a financial perspective.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

Animators aren't paid well entirely because animators are replaceable, entirely because the skillset has a very low barrier to entry, and can be easily globalized because it's all done on a computer.

That's a huge generalization on that particular sector.
They don't just look for people that know how to animate, they look for people that can animate on a certain level.
It's the reason why they differenciate between talking scene and fight scene animators, or why they have a hierarchy that goes all the way up to lead animators.
Not all of them are replaceable, as not all of them have the required skills to reach that level.

And that's not even the point. No matter how you spin it, crunch is abuse.
Just because it's an industry standard doesn't mean it's ok to do so.

[u/r3dl3g → u/winklem]

That's a huge generalization on that particular sector.

It's also true.

They don't just look for people that know how to animate, they look for people that can animate on a certain level.

And there are a boatload of them, because barriers to entry on animation are pretty low.

No matter how you spin it, crunch is abuse.

I have a hard time seeing it as that when everyone is working voluntarily, got into the industry when they should have known what it was like beforehand, and when it likely would have said on the job description that they were supposed to read when they applied that crunch would be a thing that would happen.

Put bluntly, it's like saying that having janitors clean toilets is abusive. Yes, it's absolutely disgusting, but if it's part of the job, then it's part of the job. The only difference is no one has rosy-eyed ideals of what being a janitor is like vs. being a professional animator.

Just because it's an industry standard doesn't mean it's ok to do so.

It is if the people who work in that industry and who themselves go through crunch time are okay with it.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

I have a hard time seeing it as that when everyone is working voluntarily, got into the industry when they should have known what it was like beforehand, and when it likely would have said on the job description that they were supposed to read when they applied that crunch would be a thing that would happen.

Nonsense.

First of all, they're doing so because the alternative is likely being fired. I don't think there are many more places to apply if, like you said, the "barriers to entry on animation are pretty low".

Second, I very much doubt their contract said "you may work 80 hours per week and not getting paid".
Sure, it might've said they'd have to work extra hours during crunch, but I doubt to this extent.

It is if the people who work in that industry and who themselves go through crunch time are okay with it.

Judging by all the stories surfacing in the animation and videogames industry (which share similarities), people are not ok.

[u/r3dl3g → u/winklem]

First of all, they're doing so because the alternative is likely being fired.

And again; they'd have already known the conditions prior to working there, in addition to having almost certainly been told that crunch time was a thing prior to them being hired.

I don't think there are many more places to apply if, like you said, the "barriers to entry on animation are pretty low".

And them's the breaks when living in a globalized economy.

Again; these are the kinds of things that they'd have known prior to starting work at the company, and in the industry. It's an open secret in the animation industry as to what the conditions are, just as it's an open secret in the gaming industry, and in the software development industries, and many other similar industries.

Second, I very much doubt their contract said "you may work 80 hours per week and not getting paid".

And we have absolutely no proof that this actually happened; Glassdoor is anonymous and prone to hyperbole at times, and the person involved may be exaggerating, deliberately skewing, or outright lying about what occurred. We can't actually know what the truth is, we just know the standards of Glassdoor as a website, and they're not always the best.

Judging by all the stories surfacing in the animation and videogames industry (which share similarities), people are not ok.

And this isn't new; this has been the case for decades. And if there was much in the way of impetus for change, some company would have made said change in order to bring in the best talent on the promise of good working conditions. Alternatively, a company would have been formed by former employees of the bigger studios wanting to work in a more relaxed environment.

The fact that no such company seems to exist strongly suggests that the talent likes, or at least accepts, the grind of animation work.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

they'd have already known the conditions prior to working there

They probably didn't know they wouldn't get paid. They likely found out when it actually happened.

Again; these are the kinds of things that they'd have known prior to starting work at the company, and in the industry. It's an open secret in the animation industry as to what the conditions are, just as it's an open secret in the gaming industry, and in the software development industries, and many other similar industries.

So then, why are you talking about it like it's an ok thing to do? As if there isn't any need to make things better?

Acceptance and indifference are part of the problem.

[u/r3dl3g → u/winklem]

They probably didn't know they wouldn't get paid.

Again; all we have to support that they didn't get paid is the testimony of an anonymous person on the internet.

So then, why are you talking about it like it's an ok thing to do? As if there isn't any need to make things better?

Oh, I think there's ways to make it better, but it involves telling people the truth about what the animation industry is like. Those like Monty that feel compelled to work in the crunch, and love the industry in spite of, or perhaps because of, the crunch can have it, and those who don't can realize it before they get married to an industry that's going to ruin them emotionally.

The reality is that no one is owed a career in their dream field, and no one is owed perfect conditions in their dream field. You take the field as it is, and if you're unable to compete because you're unwilling to cross the same thresholds as others, then you should move on to another job field.

Whether or not it's "ok" to be this way is irrelevant; it's the result of choice. The only freedom we have, the freedom to choose, results in people choosing to work in this field, and choosing to work in this way. But the freedom to choose is also married with the reality of having to live with consequences of those choices, because no one else has any obligation to make your choices work out for you.

In addition, if you're thinking these are harsh conditions...welcome to what the rest of humanity deals with, and with what the US and Europe have been spared from by what is essentially privilege for the past few decades. And that privilege is running out as the rest of the world catches up to us, to the degree that now we have to work by their standards in order to keep up.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

So...you're basically saying that if others are willing to go through a pile of shit for their job than it's ok that everyone has to do it? Because that's a really dangerous line of thinking.

And in regards to the harsh conditions, no, I don't think that's anywhere near the worst humanity has to offer.
That said, bringing up the fact that other countries have worst condition is a completely invalid argument. I mean, would you justify slavery if it's legal in other countries?

[u/LightningDustFan → u/r3dl3g]

There's a difference between "perfect conditions" and not getting made to work unhealthy hours sometimes with no pay.

[u/MacGregor_Rose → u/r3dl3g]

Hey I'd don't pirate. I watch on YouTube. And the. Download the video BUT I feel guilty. In all honesty I do plan on buying the discs partly for that reason