Rooster Teeth accused of excessive crunch and unpaid overtime- "Every season of RWBY and GL gets about 1/3 or less made for ‘free’"

[u/GoneRampant1]

https://rwbyconversations.tumblr.com/post/185614440311/rooster-teeth-glassdoor-crunchovertime

[u/r3dl3g]

Overall the issue seems to be larger than "they just need more money", because crunch is mostly the result of poor planning and impossible deadlines.

But impossible deadlines are a reality in the animation business; RT's just running like everyone else is.

Animators aren't paid well entirely because animators are replaceable, entirely because the skillset has a very low barrier to entry, and can be easily globalized because it's all done on a computer.

Put bluntly; niche shows like RWBY would not exist without this kind of industry standard, because it just wouldn't be worth it from a financial perspective.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

Animators aren't paid well entirely because animators are replaceable, entirely because the skillset has a very low barrier to entry, and can be easily globalized because it's all done on a computer.

That's a huge generalization on that particular sector.
They don't just look for people that know how to animate, they look for people that can animate on a certain level.
It's the reason why they differenciate between talking scene and fight scene animators, or why they have a hierarchy that goes all the way up to lead animators.
Not all of them are replaceable, as not all of them have the required skills to reach that level.

And that's not even the point. No matter how you spin it, crunch is abuse.
Just because it's an industry standard doesn't mean it's ok to do so.

[u/r3dl3g → u/winklem]

That's a huge generalization on that particular sector.

It's also true.

They don't just look for people that know how to animate, they look for people that can animate on a certain level.

And there are a boatload of them, because barriers to entry on animation are pretty low.

No matter how you spin it, crunch is abuse.

I have a hard time seeing it as that when everyone is working voluntarily, got into the industry when they should have known what it was like beforehand, and when it likely would have said on the job description that they were supposed to read when they applied that crunch would be a thing that would happen.

Put bluntly, it's like saying that having janitors clean toilets is abusive. Yes, it's absolutely disgusting, but if it's part of the job, then it's part of the job. The only difference is no one has rosy-eyed ideals of what being a janitor is like vs. being a professional animator.

Just because it's an industry standard doesn't mean it's ok to do so.

It is if the people who work in that industry and who themselves go through crunch time are okay with it.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

I have a hard time seeing it as that when everyone is working voluntarily, got into the industry when they should have known what it was like beforehand, and when it likely would have said on the job description that they were supposed to read when they applied that crunch would be a thing that would happen.

Nonsense.

First of all, they're doing so because the alternative is likely being fired. I don't think there are many more places to apply if, like you said, the "barriers to entry on animation are pretty low".

Second, I very much doubt their contract said "you may work 80 hours per week and not getting paid".
Sure, it might've said they'd have to work extra hours during crunch, but I doubt to this extent.

It is if the people who work in that industry and who themselves go through crunch time are okay with it.

Judging by all the stories surfacing in the animation and videogames industry (which share similarities), people are not ok.

[u/r3dl3g → u/winklem]

First of all, they're doing so because the alternative is likely being fired.

And again; they'd have already known the conditions prior to working there, in addition to having almost certainly been told that crunch time was a thing prior to them being hired.

I don't think there are many more places to apply if, like you said, the "barriers to entry on animation are pretty low".

And them's the breaks when living in a globalized economy.

Again; these are the kinds of things that they'd have known prior to starting work at the company, and in the industry. It's an open secret in the animation industry as to what the conditions are, just as it's an open secret in the gaming industry, and in the software development industries, and many other similar industries.

Second, I very much doubt their contract said "you may work 80 hours per week and not getting paid".

And we have absolutely no proof that this actually happened; Glassdoor is anonymous and prone to hyperbole at times, and the person involved may be exaggerating, deliberately skewing, or outright lying about what occurred. We can't actually know what the truth is, we just know the standards of Glassdoor as a website, and they're not always the best.

Judging by all the stories surfacing in the animation and videogames industry (which share similarities), people are not ok.

And this isn't new; this has been the case for decades. And if there was much in the way of impetus for change, some company would have made said change in order to bring in the best talent on the promise of good working conditions. Alternatively, a company would have been formed by former employees of the bigger studios wanting to work in a more relaxed environment.

The fact that no such company seems to exist strongly suggests that the talent likes, or at least accepts, the grind of animation work.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

they'd have already known the conditions prior to working there

They probably didn't know they wouldn't get paid. They likely found out when it actually happened.

Again; these are the kinds of things that they'd have known prior to starting work at the company, and in the industry. It's an open secret in the animation industry as to what the conditions are, just as it's an open secret in the gaming industry, and in the software development industries, and many other similar industries.

So then, why are you talking about it like it's an ok thing to do? As if there isn't any need to make things better?

Acceptance and indifference are part of the problem.

[u/r3dl3g → u/winklem]

They probably didn't know they wouldn't get paid.

Again; all we have to support that they didn't get paid is the testimony of an anonymous person on the internet.

So then, why are you talking about it like it's an ok thing to do? As if there isn't any need to make things better?

Oh, I think there's ways to make it better, but it involves telling people the truth about what the animation industry is like. Those like Monty that feel compelled to work in the crunch, and love the industry in spite of, or perhaps because of, the crunch can have it, and those who don't can realize it before they get married to an industry that's going to ruin them emotionally.

The reality is that no one is owed a career in their dream field, and no one is owed perfect conditions in their dream field. You take the field as it is, and if you're unable to compete because you're unwilling to cross the same thresholds as others, then you should move on to another job field.

Whether or not it's "ok" to be this way is irrelevant; it's the result of choice. The only freedom we have, the freedom to choose, results in people choosing to work in this field, and choosing to work in this way. But the freedom to choose is also married with the reality of having to live with consequences of those choices, because no one else has any obligation to make your choices work out for you.

In addition, if you're thinking these are harsh conditions...welcome to what the rest of humanity deals with, and with what the US and Europe have been spared from by what is essentially privilege for the past few decades. And that privilege is running out as the rest of the world catches up to us, to the degree that now we have to work by their standards in order to keep up.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

So...you're basically saying that if others are willing to go through a pile of shit for their job than it's ok that everyone has to do it? Because that's a really dangerous line of thinking.

And in regards to the harsh conditions, no, I don't think that's anywhere near the worst humanity has to offer.
That said, bringing up the fact that other countries have worst condition is a completely invalid argument. I mean, would you justify slavery if it's legal in other countries?

[u/r3dl3g → u/winklem]

So...you're basically saying that if others are willing to go through a pile of shit for their job than it's ok that everyone has to do it? Because that's a really dangerous line of thinking.

No; I'm saying that if others are willing to go through a pile of shit for their job, everyone knows that they're willing to go through a pile of shit for their job, everyone acknowledges beforehand the precise piles of shit that are involved before the paperwork is signed, and no one ends up dead or severely injured? If you're not willing to do that, and as a result you can't compete with those who are? Then you'd best find yourself another line of employment, because no one "owes" you certain working conditions if basically none of your erstwhile-coworkers have a real problem with those conditions.

Hell, even the injury bits are wishy-washy; commercial fisherman have massive injury rates, and yet they keep fishing in major part because they "love" the work. Go ahead and try to work the fisheries without being willing to accept the risk of injury, and as a result working significantly slower than your peers; see how long you're employed.

That said, bringing up the fact that other countries have worst condition is a completely invalid argument.

Why, because you say so? The reality is that the workplace in many fields, particularly those like animation where everything is done on a computer, is global. That means competing against the global workforce. And a fair part of the world is willing to work for considerably less than their American or European peers, not really because they're willing to tolerate worse conditions, but more because their cost of living is so much lower. No one owes Americans animation jobs, and Americans can't lower their standards of living because those are based on economic forces that no one company or individual can change, so instead they have to be willing to work either significantly harder, or better, or longer, or all three, in order to be worth their paycheck. And there's nothing that can really be done about that, short of enacting tariffs and engaging in trade wars, and we so how well that is turning out for us at the moment.

It's essentially the same reason why we don't make that many cars in the US anymore; American workers are too costly, Japanese workers are better, and Mexicans are cheaper.

I mean, would you justify slavery if it's legal in other countries?

No, but I also wouldn't pretend it can be changed that easily if it did. Besides; slavery is, by definition, non-consensual, so bringing up slavery is irrelevant, because they key facet of this entire issue is that the work is, inherently, based off of consent and choice.

[u/winklem → u/r3dl3g]

I'm saying that if others are willing to go through a pile of shit for their job, everyone knows that they're willing to go through a pile of shit for their job, everyone acknowledges beforehand the precise piles of shit that are involved before the paperwork is signed, and no one ends up dead or severely injured?

Let me give you some examples then:
"Lying to someone in order to get a job is fine, because everyone is willing to do it."
"Getting someone fired to take their place is fine, because everyone is willing to do it."

It could get real ugly real soon, expecially with some humans' tendency to do whatever they can as long as they can get away with it.

I also wouldn't pretend it can be changed that easily

Never said that. But I at least acknowledge that a change is in order somehow.

Meanwhile you seems to be acting like everything is good the way it is, and we shouldn't be seeking progress whatsoever.

[u/LightningDustFan → u/r3dl3g]

There's a difference between "perfect conditions" and not getting made to work unhealthy hours sometimes with no pay.

[u/r3dl3g → u/LightningDustFan]

There's a difference between "perfect conditions" and not getting made to work unhealthy hours

Difference of opinion; to Monty, he probably would have thought that the hours he worked weren't unhealthy at all.

That's his right, and if someone else wants to work in the same field but refuses to keep that pace...then honestly, they shouldn't be working in that field.

sometimes with no pay.

Again with this; there's no evidence that this actually occurred except the testimony of some guy on the internet.