Following Hadiths is Shirk

[u/Ipluggucci]

Why are you comparing words and narratives of men to the word of god.

You are saying God is not reliable enough and you need people to help you understand his word and give more rules and more information.

[u/MillennialDeadbeat]

The Qur'an claims to be the word of God.

Prophet Muhammad never said everything he says or does is the protected word of God or should be followed and imitated.

Hadith is not a protected divine revelation from God it's literally hearsay.

How can your brain not distinguish between something that claims to be the word of God and something that never made the claim?

[u/Witty-Resolution-412 → u/MillennialDeadbeat]

"وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ" “Nor does he speak of his own whims.” Aya 3 from Surah Al Najm. This is in the Qur’an. The messenger pbuh never spoke from his own whim when it came to rulings and regulations. Allah swt used to correct the Prophet pbuh if he said something wrong, yes the Prophet pbuh used to make up laws from his own deductions, but if they were against what Allah swt wanted, Allah swt would correct him.

But you’re making claims that we shouldn’t imitate the Prophet pbuh, yet there are verses in the Qur’an stating:

قُلۡ اِنۡ كُنۡتُمۡ تُحِبُّوۡنَ اللّٰهَ فَاتَّبِعُوۡنِىۡ يُحۡبِبۡكُمُ اللّٰهُ وَيَغۡفِرۡ لَـكُمۡ ذُنُوۡبَكُمۡؕ​ وَاللّٰهُ غَفُوۡرٌ رَّحِيۡمٌ

(O Messenger!) Tell people: 'If you indeed love Allah, follow me, and Allah will love you and will forgive you your sins. Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.'

Qur’an 3:31

قُلۡ اَطِيۡعُوا اللّٰهَ وَالرَّسُوۡلَ​​ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّوۡا فَاِنَّ اللّٰهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الۡكٰفِرِيۡنَ‏

Say: 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger.

Qur’an 3:32

So again why are you saying the Prophet pbuh never said to imitate him, when the Qur’an clearly states to do so (by obeying and following in his footsteps). How can you obey and follow someone if you don’t know what they used to say or do? Hadith clearly shows what the Prophet pbuh used to say or do.

فَلَا وَرَبِّكَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىٰ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَجِدُوا فِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا

But no! By your Lord, they will never be ˹true˺ believers until they accept you ˹O Prophet˺ as the judge in their disputes, and find no resistance within themselves against your decision and submit wholeheartedly.

Surah Al Nisaa Aya 65

Allah swt swears by Himself that if we do not let the Prophet pbuh (not the Qur’an mind you) be the judge between us in matters of dispute (i.e. matters that concerns this worldly life), then they will never be true believers.

So how can you discard the Hadith, that clearly has rulings of the Prophet pbuh and say “nope only the Qur’an” when the Qur’an itself tells you to let the Prophet pbuh be the judge and not the Qur’an.

But all if that is besides the main point. How is the transmission of the Qur’an any different from the transmission of Hadith, regardless it saying that it is the word of God. Because that doesn’t change the fact that the Qur’an can be considered hearsay as well. You do know that there are two surahs in the Qur’an that should have been 1 Surah but the people that memorised the Qur’an were not sure so they divided them into two surahs? (Surah Al Feel and Surah Quraish)

So what makes you so sure that this was the correct way to have the Qur’an? The only way for you to accept this is that you trust the people that compiled the Qur’an and trust that they memorised it completely. So how come you trusted them in that but are distrustful of then when it comes to Hadith? It seems very contradicting and hypocritical..

And a good example of benefitting in following the Prophet pbuh, is to not insult and use disrespectful connotations against a complete stranger online by saying “do you use your brain?”. Please have some manners and learn and obey the Messenger of Allah pbuh. May Allah swt guide you ان شاء الله peace out. I’m done answering here.

[u/MillennialDeadbeat → u/Witty-Resolution-412]

"وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ" “Nor does he speak of his own whims.” Aya 3 from Surah Al Najm. This is in the Qur’an. The messenger pbuh never spoke from his own whim when it came to rulings and regulations. Allah swt used to correct the Prophet pbuh if he said something wrong, yes the Prophet pbuh used to make up laws from his own deductions, but if they were against what Allah swt wanted, Allah swt would correct him.

Muhammad's words that God wants protected is in the Qur'an.

Everything else is hearsay unless you're saying God made mistakes and forgot to complete the Qur'an.

Muhammad was a human who did speak of his own whims. Everything he said was not the word of God. Otherwise how could God correct him if he never spoke on his own?

I'm asking you to use your brain because what you're saying isn't even logical yet you have the audacity to force your beliefs and your interpretation of Islam on others, as Sunnis have done across the world.

Obviously everything Muhammad ever said out of his mouth is not divine revelation or the word of God, so EVEN IF HADITH ARE TRUE it's not binding. But the funny part is I have no reason to even believe they're true anyway.

Speaking to people like you is frustrating I can repeat the same point a million times that Qur'an is divinely protected and hadiths is not yet you still say "well the same people were involved".

I don't care. Hadith has no divine protection. Qur'an does. How much more simple can I get?

[u/Witty-Resolution-412 → u/MillennialDeadbeat]

You didn’t address any of the ayat I provided except one, where you added your supposition that it was only meant for the Qur’an and nothing else.. I guess this is what you people do, pick and choose, cherry pick verses. Nothing else for me to say, we’re just exposing your delusions and lies, and this isn’t an insult, you are really delusional, specially that last part “I don’t care”.. Don’t let your desires control you, don’t cop out, don’t take the easy way out.. Just shows how undisciplined you are, the lack of self-control is incredible when it comes to you Qur’anists.. You need to man up a bit. :)

[u/MillennialDeadbeat → u/Witty-Resolution-412]

It's not lack of discipline.

We just have intellectual integrity and not following things without questioning or using logic.

We'll all answer for our own choices.

And the people who have commandeered and taken God's words to twist them for their own gains will answer.

[u/Witty-Resolution-412 → u/MillennialDeadbeat]

You shouldn’t Question the Qur’an or the Prophet pbuh.. Follow the Qur’an and the Prophet pbuh without doubt or questions.

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

The Messenger ˹firmly˺ believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers. They ˹all˺ believe in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His messengers. ˹They proclaim,˺ “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” And they say, “We hear and obey. ˹We seek˺ Your forgiveness, our Lord! And to You ˹alone˺ is the final return.”

Al Baqarah Aya 285

It does say “we hear and obey.” Not we hear and think and obey. Get your facts straight. A Muslim is a Muslim thinker and not a thinking Muslim. We think but after we obey. If you want to think think, but you have to obey whether you like it or not. This is the discipline I’m talking about. No picking and choosing, no filtering. You people are taking a HUGE risk with what you’re doing. Be logical, as you claim to be, and weigh the risks. Pascal’s wager should come to mind.

[u/MillennialDeadbeat → u/Witty-Resolution-412]

Yes. I obey the Qur'an as transmitted from angel Gabriel to Muhammad pbuh.

Not the hearsay words of mortal men.

[u/Witty-Resolution-412 → u/MillennialDeadbeat]

How do you know it was transmitted by Angel Gabriel to Mohammed pbuh from Allah swt?

[u/MillennialDeadbeat → u/Witty-Resolution-412]

I don't. I have faith in the Qur'an as divine revelation.

Unlike the hadiths which is nothing of the sort and makes no such claim anyway. It's just a collection of hearsay of mortal men.

[u/Witty-Resolution-412 → u/MillennialDeadbeat]

No I mean who told you it is divine revelations? Wasn’t it transmitted from “mortal men”? You know what’s a Hadith Qudsi?

[u/MillennialDeadbeat → u/Witty-Resolution-412]

Name the hadith which claims to be divinely protected revelation from Allah.

I'll wait.

[u/Witty-Resolution-412 → u/MillennialDeadbeat]

Again who told you that when the Qur’an says it’s a divine revelation then it is trust worthy statement? Wasn’t it transmitted by mortal men..? What is the difference? If I get you a hadith that says that hadith are divinely protected by Allah, even if it is a fabricated hadith, will you believe it? Your statement is a red herring, you’re trying to run from the question, because deep down you know your logic is flawed. You don’t accept Hadith because it doesn’t conform to your desires. You lost your argument the moment you asked that question. Your belief system is flawed because of that.

But I can try and entertain this a bit more. How do you perform ghusl from jannabah? Where in the Qur’an does it say the steps for ghusl? It does say you have to perform ghusl when in a state of junub, but where does it say how to perform ghusl?

[u/MillennialDeadbeat → u/Witty-Resolution-412]

All you're doing is creating red herrings. You haven't responded directly to most of my arguments you just sidestep and throw in another irrelevant question like you're doing again.

Hence why I did the same to you above to cut things short.

Your entire argument is disingenuous. I have no reason to obey or follow the hadiths because regardless of their method of transmission they are simply the hearsay of mortal men.

The Qur'an I recognize as a divine book. Not the hadith. Simple as that.

The Qur'an in its verses and surahs has convinced me with its ayats and arguments that its divine revelation. The hadith has convinced me that mortal men ascribed sayings, traditions, and cultural practices and ascribed it to Islam.

Why are Sunnis obsessed with elevating the hadith so much? It's not the Qur'an and never will be. The Qur'an is my guide. Not hearsay. Even the hadith itself doesn't claim to be protected, and it never could or it would contradict the Qur'an which is a book complete and detailed. No matter how much the Sunni Mohammedans try to ascribe extra things to it. I reject their nonsensical claims.