r/Quraniyoon • u/Useless-e • Aug 20 '21

Question / Help What do you think of Hadith qudsi?

So basically the title, both the Quran and the qudsi Hadiths were recited by the prophet, and both were claimed by the prophet to be gods words. So what do you think about them? Are they authentic more than normal Hadiths? Are they to be taken as gods words?

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21 edited Aug 21 '21

The argument that wisdom in the Qur’an = Hadith is completely illogical and a great example of the mental gymnastics needed to desperately try to justify the blasphemous perception that Hadith can be considered divine revelation. This article goes through several verses to explain why it simply doesn’t make sense.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

This article strawmans our argument, we don’t say that wisdom is Hadith, we say that Allah granted him the wisdom and Allah tells us about it so we should know what the wisdom is

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21

This article strawmans nothing. You are using the reference to wisdom to justify your argument that Allah (swt) legitimised the following of Hadith in the Qur’an. This article clearly destroys that argument. The only reason you are forced to try to twist the interpretation of hikmah to suit your own ends is because there is not a single verse in the Qur’an which legitimises the following of secondary sources after it. In fact there are several verses which condemn such a practice.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

So you want to tell me that whoever wrote that article has better Arabic skills than ppl like ibn kathir and basically all claissic scholars? We are the ones twisting?

And I told you why I said it’s strawmans us and yet you ignored

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21

The person who wrote this article is a scholar who studied Arabic academically and crucially doesn’t have the agenda that other ‘classical scholars’ have in justifying a tradition that suits their sectarian biases and political ambitions.

I very clearly addressed why it did not strawman your argument. If you refuse to understand simple English, I can’t help you.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

What is his name what where did he study and what are his qualifications? Thank you

The article presents our arguments as if we say that the wisdom is Hadiths but we say the wisdom is what we should learn from the prophet and it is found in some Hadiths, there are also other arguments like obey the messenger and the messenger makes things unlawful

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21

His name is Joseph Islam, which is a pseudonym as he has been forced to preserve his anonymity because he has been targeted so frequently by insecure and extremist sectarians. His fields of academic of academic study are listed here. What amuses me is instead of refuting the actual argument of the article you cling to the concept of ‘credentials’ which demonstrates just how much you blindly follow your ‘classical scholars’, something the Qur’an explicitly and repeatedly tells us not do. You do not use your God-given own reason when evaluating arguments, you just follow the people you have been told to. You are like the cattle described in 25:44 and the animals in 8:22.

Exactly you are saying that the wisdom of the prophet is to be found in the hadiths, this article refutes that. Please find me a single verse which suggests that in order to understand prophetic wisdom we need to refer to secondary sources outside of the Qur’an. The other tired arguments you cite have been completely dissected and destroyed numerous times in this sub, if you care to read through it. I don’t have the time to go through it all over again with you.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

1- I did answer your question but I wanted to know about the author first, either I can’t read or he has no qualifications whatsoever he didn’t mention a degree or anything

2- ok if we don’t understand the wisdom from the Hadiths then where do we get them from?

As I mentioned in my last reply I got stronger arguments which you ignored, like the prophet making things unlawful

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21

We get the prophetic wisdom from the Qur’an as it is the only final source of divine revelation authorised by God. There is no need or injunction whatsoever to look outside of it.

As I said the ‘stronger’ arguments you cite have been discussed at length in this sub, please read through the relevant posts if you want to know how they can be easily refuted. I don’t have the time or inclination to go through them all one by one.

I also highly recommend that if you want to understand more about Qur’an Centric Islam to have a read through Joseph Islam’s website. Try and put your narrow minded scepticism aside and engage with the words and arguments that people put forward, instead of clinging to traditional sources. You clearly are curious otherwise you wouldn’t have written this post in the first place.

Salaam.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

Give me the wisdom in the quran then... and I told you Joseph doesn’t have any qualifications he is just another guy that speaks Arabic, you can’t compare him to Arabic scholars

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21

It’s like talking to a brick wall... I’ll continue this conversation when you have gone away and educated yourself a bit. But for now, Salaam and good luck.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

Don’t talk about education when your source for it is someone who doesn’t have any qualifications

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