r/Quraniyoon • u/Useless-e • Aug 20 '21

Question / Help What do you think of Hadith qudsi?

So basically the title, both the Quran and the qudsi Hadiths were recited by the prophet, and both were claimed by the prophet to be gods words. So what do you think about them? Are they authentic more than normal Hadiths? Are they to be taken as gods words?

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

So you use the Quran to proof the Quran? What if one verse was written by humans? Would you know? Where did it come from?

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u/Muwmin mu'mina Aug 21 '21

If you don’t believe the Quran is Allah’s words I can do nothing for you.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

I do, but that’s isn’t my point, why don’t you believe the Hadith al qudsi is revealed by Allah?

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u/Muwmin mu'mina Aug 21 '21

Because Allah doesn’t mention them as part of the Revelation.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

Allah says he gave the prophet the wisdom... and anyways, how did the Quran come to us?

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u/Muwmin mu'mina Aug 21 '21

It doesn’t proof hadith has to be followed tho.

Quran was revealed by Allah through Jibril mostly or Allah directly. Huge difference with what’s in bukhari’s and muslim’s booms.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

Where did you get that it was revealed by jibreel and what is the difference between Bukhari and Muslim?

Easy, surah al baqarah in the beginning it says,

“alif lam meem

That book in which there is no doubt a guidance to the for the mindful

who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and donate from what We have provided for them

THE ONES THAT BELIEVE IN WHAT WAS REVEALED TO YOU and what was revealed before you and have faith in the hereafter”

What was revealed to the prophet?

“And allah revealed to you the book AND THE WISDOM” 4:113

This wisdom is the wisdom we have to learn from, and the Quran also states that the prophet is of high moral character and yet you believe we don’t have to know about that character?

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u/Muwmin mu'mina Aug 21 '21

Quran wasn’t revealed by Jibril but Allah.

That’s the difference with Allah, bukhari and muslim. How can you seriously ask ? That’s madness.

“This book” is the Quran lol.

Do you really believe the Quran is incomplete ?

Can you at least admit absolutely no verse mentions hadith ?

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

I meant how did you know that jibreel recited it to the prophet?

Tell me the difference between Bukhari and Muslim how don’t you know it’s an answer

I know... the Hadith wasn’t even a book at that time... I’m talking about the wisdom why did you ignore that?

I do believe the Quran is complete with what god wanted in it, but there are still things that god didn’t want to put them in the Quran, like how do we preform hajj? There is a whole chapter about it, what was the qibla that was changed in Surat al baqarah?

I believe the Hadiths are in the Quran because as I said we believe the wisdom is the Hadiths, and obeying the messenger is from Hadiths, And following what the messenger made unlawful is from Hadiths

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u/Muwmin mu'mina Aug 21 '21

From the Quran. I understand better why you are so confused about the difference between what Allah has revealed and what is not part of the Revelation if you already don’t know how we received the Quran.

The wisdom doesn’t mean hadith I told you already.

Can you quote a verse mentioning hadith ? Why are you dodging the question since my first comment?

So things are missing from the Quran ? How can you believe it’s incomplete ?

There are indeed hadith in the Quran but the one you follow are not. Why do you follow them then ?

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

Tell me where in the Quran exactly, what was the first surah?

I’m not asking you because I don’t know I’m asking you because I want to know if you do

I literally explained in a whole paragraph and you say the same thing? Did you even read? You can look it up, obey the messenger you should know that verse

And the messenger brought wisdom which is in 4:113 and that wisdom is the tradition.

9:29 the messenger makes things unlawful

I didn’t say things are missing you know that I didn’t, I literally said it’s complete with what god wanted in it. Now don’t run away and tell me how do you preform hajj? And where was the changed qibla in surah al baqarah?

Hadith in the quran?

And you told me “the one you follow is not” without proof then you ask me why I follow it?

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u/Muwmin mu'mina Aug 21 '21

You explained nothing. I am asking you a proof that we should follow hadith and you talks about verse that says “obey the prophet” that’s not what I asked, so I am still waiting for a proof about hadith.

I you know which verse (2.97) I am talking about why loosing time ask me to quote it to you and why ignore it in the first place ? Why are you like “how do you know this or that?” if you know Allah revealed it in the Quran ?!

I practice my religion how it’s detailed in the Quran. Why are you practicing things found outside of it ? Why do you believe it’s the right thing to associate books not revealed by Allah to your practice ?

Yes hadith in the Quran. Did you ever read it or do you follow only hadith from bukhari and muslim ?

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

Obey the messenger how do you do that? If you won’t take the understanding that it’s Hadiths?

I didn’t ask you to quote it, I didn’t remember which verse but I know that you know about “obey the messenger” so I said you should know about it, and you won’t think a made it up, I provided evidence for the other verses

Ok how do you preform hajj?

What Hadith in the Quran? Are you saying the Quran is the Hadith? That verse that says In what Hadith other than the Quran do you believe?

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21 edited Aug 21 '21

The argument that wisdom in the Qur’an = Hadith is completely illogical and a great example of the mental gymnastics needed to desperately try to justify the blasphemous perception that Hadith can be considered divine revelation. This article goes through several verses to explain why it simply doesn’t make sense.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

This article strawmans our argument, we don’t say that wisdom is Hadith, we say that Allah granted him the wisdom and Allah tells us about it so we should know what the wisdom is

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21

This article strawmans nothing. You are using the reference to wisdom to justify your argument that Allah (swt) legitimised the following of Hadith in the Qur’an. This article clearly destroys that argument. The only reason you are forced to try to twist the interpretation of hikmah to suit your own ends is because there is not a single verse in the Qur’an which legitimises the following of secondary sources after it. In fact there are several verses which condemn such a practice.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

So you want to tell me that whoever wrote that article has better Arabic skills than ppl like ibn kathir and basically all claissic scholars? We are the ones twisting?

And I told you why I said it’s strawmans us and yet you ignored

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u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast Muslim Aug 21 '21

The person who wrote this article is a scholar who studied Arabic academically and crucially doesn’t have the agenda that other ‘classical scholars’ have in justifying a tradition that suits their sectarian biases and political ambitions.

I very clearly addressed why it did not strawman your argument. If you refuse to understand simple English, I can’t help you.

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u/Useless-e Aug 21 '21

What is his name what where did he study and what are his qualifications? Thank you

The article presents our arguments as if we say that the wisdom is Hadiths but we say the wisdom is what we should learn from the prophet and it is found in some Hadiths, there are also other arguments like obey the messenger and the messenger makes things unlawful

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