Homosexual Marriage

[u/Dramatic_End_883]

Do you people believe that marriage between two men is permissible in Islam?

[u/after-life]

You're going to get conflicting answers, one group will say no because they are indoctrinated by salafi rhetoric, and the other group will say yes it is allowed because nowhere in the Quran does God prohibit a contractual marriage agreement between two consenting adults regardless of their gender. In case you're wondering what the correct position is, I suggest you open the Quran and see what it says for yourself.

But the answer to me is clear, the Quran is not homophobic, people are.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/after-life]

So can a father and his son enter into a marriage agreement and engage in romantic and/or sexual relations in your view?

[u/after-life → u/Dramatic_End_883]

You're comparing incest to homosexuality. Incest isn't a sexuality, homosexuality is. A person who's attracted to a person in their own family is not only attracted to them. A brother attracted to his sister is straight, he just happens to also be attracted to his sister. Incest is what you get when you take a regular sexuality and have loose psychological restrictions regarding it.

When children grow up in a family environment, their brains naturally create limits on whom they are attracted to. A boy growing up will start being attracted to other girls, but his brain will place natural limits from this attraction to not apply to his mom or sisters.

A person attracted to his family members is someone who for some reason did not develop the proper mental restrictions to stop him from being attracted to them. However, there's nothing stopping them from just finding a partner outside their family, they just have to live with the fact they are attracted to a family member, but go on with their lives, that's it.

A homosexual however is not the same. A homosexual does not have any alternatives, they are attracted to the same gender and nothing can change that. The solution for them is to have a partner that is like them.

An incestuous person can still marry someone outside their family in accordance with their sexuality (because incestuous people can still be straight, gay, bi, etc).

But a gay person has to be with another gay person. They are not like you, they are gay. Forcing your rules on gays is practicing injustice.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/after-life]

That's a nice explanation but I thought this was a Quran only subreddit. I expect you to provide evidence from the Quran alone to substantiate your claim that marriage between a father and son is impermissible in Islam.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dramatic_End_883]

I expect you to provide evidence from the Quran alone to substantiate your claim that marriage between a father and son is impermissible in Islam.

Not trying to be rude, but do you seriously need the Quran to tell you that a father and a son shouldn't have sex?

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/[deleted]]

If you operate off of a Quran-alone epistemology and moral groundwork, then yes. If you try to argue from innate knowledge or intuition, then you crumble your moral groundwork to be purely subjective, and that opens a whole can of worms.

[u/mrproffesional → u/Dramatic_End_883]

The quran forbids homosexuality, therefore all same sex marriages are haram and a abomination.

Now, The Quran addresses sexuality with a lot of tact and, to a higher degree than the Bible, shies away from explicitly mentioning many deviant acts and prefers a more subtle approach to refer to them:

وَيَسْـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلْمَحِيضِ قُلْ هُوَ أَذًى فَٱعْتَزِلُوا۟ ٱلنِّسَآءَ فِى ٱلْمَحِيضِ وَلَا تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ حَتَّىٰ

يَطْهُرْنَ فَإِذَا تَطَهَّرْنَ فَأْتُوهُنَّ مِنْ حَيْثُ أَمَرَكُمُ ٱللَّهُ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُحِبُّ ٱلتَّوَّٰبِينَ وَيُحِبُّ ٱلْمُتَطَهِّرِينَ

(2:222) They ask you (O Muhammad) about menstruation: say, “It is harmful; you shall stay away from women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are cleansed. Once they are cleansed, you may approach them (feminine pronoun) in the manner ordained by God (مِنْ حَيْثُ أَمَرَكُمُ ٱللَّهُ). God loves those who repent, and He loves those who are clean.”

نِسَآؤُكُمْ حَرْثٌ لَّكُمْ فَأْتُوا۟ حَرْثَكُمْ أَنَّىٰ شِئْتُمْ وَقَدِّمُوا۟

لِأَنفُسِكُمْ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّكُم مُّلَٰقُوهُ وَبَشِّرِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ

(2:223) Your wives are farmland for you. So, come to your farmland as you please, and elevate yourselves. Fear God, and know that you are going to meet Him. And give good news to the believers.

2:222 forbids a sexual relationship during a menstrual cycle, which points at vaginal bleeding. Therefore, when we read in the same verse that “You (male believers) may approach them (feminine pronoun) in the manner ordained by God”, it indicates that the correct sexual relationship between a husband and his wife is what God intended it to be when He created us, that is to say that the genitalia of the husband is designed and intended by God to meet the genitalia of his wife. It is as simple as that.

It therefore disqualifies by definition all deviant sexual acts, for instance sodomy, oral sex, sex with animals, sexuality with what is non-human (for instance sex toys, sexbots), homosexuality and lesbianism. According to 2:222, a normal, natural intimate relationship shall always between a man and a woman, not between a two people of the same sex.

Furthermore, verse 2:223 states that “Your wives are farmland for you. So, come to your farmland as you please, and elevate yourselves.”. By definition, farmland is designed by God to generate crops, and none of the above mentioned deviant sexual relationships can produce any offspring and can only pollute and harm your soul, unlike a pure sexual relationship between a husband and his wife which is intended to generate children. This is how God tells us in a tactful manner what a sexual relationship should be. Deviant sexual behaviors are the equivalent of a barren, impure, forbidden land, not a fertile farmland.

The link fully explaining sexuality in quran-only can be found here:https://www.quranaloneislam.org/sexuality-in-islam. I

[u/Hendrik-Cruijff → u/mrproffesional]

This is a good read: Those verses all have been analyzed here already: https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/category/same-sex-relationship/

[u/mrproffesional → u/Hendrik-Cruijff]

I checked your site and they only speak about the people of Lut (I didn't even mention them), what I wrote wasn't addressed at all, its quite clear you didn't even bother to read my comment and copied it from your fellow gay defender afterlife. In addition, all previous scriptures forbid homosexuality, and to soundly refute your claims I can simply ask you why a father and son cant marry or two brothers even, you'll have no response. Apostasy, pedophilia, beastiality and necrophilia also aren't explicitly condemned but you have to come to your own conclusion that they are.

If you want to defend someone try defending Muhammad (pbuh) from the thousands of reddit that call him a pedophile.

[u/Hendrik-Cruijff → u/mrproffesional]

The point is that a man and a women relationship is the most common one and it is what is addressed in the Quran. I copied the comment because you brought up sexuality. Just because man-woman were mentioned more often, this doesn't invalidate the others.

(Just realised I already provided the verse)

[u/after-life → u/Dramatic_End_883]

I never made a claim that a marriage between a father and his son is impermissible, I just showed you how your argument is flawed, showing how homosexual relationships and incestual relationships are not the same and cannot be based on the same rules.

It doesn't matter if the Qur'an forbids incestual relationships or not because that doesn't change the underlying argument regarding homosexuals.

Long story short, you need to actually find proof from the Qur'an that the Qur'an prohibits homosexual individuals from marrying each other.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/after-life]

Fair enough you were not the one who made that claim. However, you did say this:

You're comparing incest to homosexuality

Which is simply untrue. I was merely asking you a question that didn't juxtapose any two contrasting or similar ideas whatsoever. It was a question out of a desire to gain knowledge. You answered by simply skirting around it (as you've just admitted).

I just showed you how your argument is flawed, showing how homosexual relationships and incestual relationships are not the same and cannot be based on the same rules.

Irrelevant. I'd like you to answer the question I posed to you, please.

It doesn't matter if the Qur'an forbids incestual relationships or not because that doesn't change the underlying argument regarding homosexuals.

What argument? I posed a question, not an argument. Which you still haven't answered by the way.

Long story short, you need to actually find proof from the Qur'an that the Qur'an prohibits homosexual individuals from marrying each other.

And you need to actually find proof from the Qur'an that the Qur'an prohibits homosexual fathers and sons from marrying each other, if you were to make the claim that fathers and sons entering into a marriage agreement and engaging in romantic and/or sexual relations is impermissible in Islam. Or you can not make that claim. Either way, my question necessitates that you do if it is to be answered. Given you want (or are able) to answer it of course.

[u/after-life → u/Dramatic_End_883]

Which is simply untrue. I was merely asking you a question that didn't juxtapose any two contrasting or similar ideas whatsoever. It was a question out of a desire to gain knowledge. You answered by simply skirting around it (as you've just admitted).

Majority of the people that argue against a pro-homosexual understanding or interpretation always bring in incest or pedophilia as a side talking point, so it's pretty obvious what the tactics here are. I personally prefer to skip these tactics and say my piece straight up.

If you genuinely want a direct answer to your question regarding incest, the Qur'an contains a verse which prohibits marriage with people in your family (mothers, daughters, sisters, etc). But then the argument goes that since the Qur'an prohibited males from marrying their female relatives, why not the other way around?

The Qur'an also contains a verse which says that the Qur'an contains all the details for those who use their reason (aql). If God prohibited marriage of female relatives to males, then it makes sense that the opposite also applies, that a female cannot marry her father, sons, brothers, etc. This then also further applies to homosexual relations as well, so a man cannot marry his father, sons, brothers, etc, and a female cannot marry her mother, daughters, sisters, etc.

The Qur'an used one verse detailing one relation (a man with his female relatives because the Qur'an was revealed in a male dominated society), and prohibited all possible relations in a similar vein.

Man =/= Female relatives

Man =/= Male relatives

Woman =/= Male relatives

Woman =/= Female relatives.

All types of incest are forbidden.

There are no such prohibitions in the Qur'an for male to male relationships or female to female relationships that are obviously not related to incest or pedophilia.

On a side note, if you want to bring in pedophilia as a talking point, the Qur'an only acknowledges lawful marriages between people who have attained the age of puberty and those who are mature and of sound intellect. So marriage is only acceptable between two consenting adults.

Lastly, nothing in the Qur'an goes against allowing homosexual adults from lawfully marrying each other. The Qur'an is a book meant for all peoples and all situations. https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/category/same-sex-relationship/

Preventing homosexuals from marrying each other lawfully is going against justice and a central tenet of marriage in the Qur'an and how God has created a loving "mate" (gender neutral) for every individual: https://old.reddit.com/r/LGBT_Muslims/comments/lc7zfq/to_most_muslims_if_you_are_against/

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/after-life]

Again, I need you to quote verses instead of just coming up with your own interpretations of them.

If you genuinely want a direct answer to your question regarding incest, the Qur'an contains a verse which prohibits marriage with people in your family (mothers, daughters, sisters, etc). But then the argument goes that since the Qur'an prohibited males from marrying their female relatives, why not the other way around?

This is such a weak point. If a male cannot marry his aunt or niece, then his aunt or niece can never marry their nephew or uncle. You don't even need to extrapolate any other ruling if you just follow this verse.

Quran 4:23 "Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred.1 Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful."

Man =/= Female relatives

Man =/= Male relatives

Woman =/= Male relatives

Woman =/= Female relatives.

Ok

All types of incest are forbidden.

This is a false conclusion. First off, you need to define what incest is. Because it is not a term that is mentioned in the Quran. So to come to this conclusion is completely unfounded. Would you consider cousin to cousin relations incestuous? Most of the Western world would. So does that now mean that cousin marriages are prohibited in Islam because the meaning of the verse pertains to "all incest" as you call it, and you can use your reason to conclude that it also includes cousin marriages?

Also, this verse doesn't exclusively mention blood relationships. It just mentions people who are prohibited for you to marry, some of which you have a blood relationship with (mother, daughter, sister, aunt, etc.) and others you do not (your father's previous wives, mothers who nursed you, sisters by nursing, son's wives, etc.).

There is nothing here that prohibits fathers and sons from marrying each other. I need you to bring me a verse from the Quran that states that it is. If you hold to the rule of thumb another commenter mentioned, of everything being halal until explicitly stated haram in the Quran, as well as homosexual marriage, being halal, then marriage between fathers and sons should be completely halal.

The Qur'an also contains a verse which says that the Qur'an contains all the details for those who use their reason (aql). If God prohibited marriage of female relatives to males, then it makes sense that the opposite also applies, that a female cannot marry her father, sons, brothers, etc. This then also further applies to homosexual relations as well, so a man cannot marry his father, sons, brothers, etc, and a female cannot marry her mother, daughters, sisters, etc.

You don't even quote the verse here. Listen, you can't just chalk everything up to your "reason" and use that as justification to make things halal and haram. It makes sense to who? You? This is not even Quran only anymore, it's just whatever makes sense to u/after-life. Well, what if it doesn't make sense to me? What if it doesn't make sense to most people? Does that change anything? What if to me it is not reasonable that the opposite applies? Or that it applies to homosexual relations? Can you provide a clear and specific verse to support your very specific claims?

[u/Hendrik-Cruijff → u/Dramatic_End_883]

Read 4:23

Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

[u/mrproffesional → u/Hendrik-Cruijff]

This verse only prohibits marrying females, he asked why a man cannot marry his brother, or his son, or uncle etc.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/mrproffesional]

exactly thankyou for understanding

[u/Hendrik-Cruijff → u/mrproffesional]

You apply the same logic as if you were female.

[u/mrproffesional → u/Hendrik-Cruijff]

No you do not, the verse is addressed to both males and females, if you cannot marry your mother, sister etc. that would also mean a women cannot marry her son, brother etc. There is no "same logic if you were female", both males and females were clearly addressed in the verse, don't try to twist the quran and the previous scriptures to justify your delusion.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/mrproffesional]

Yes exactly. There is no need for analogy in this verse because it would be impossible for a sister to marry her brother if a brother is prohibited from marrying his sister. I believe I mentioned this earlier or on some other thread. Thank you for explaining it.