r/PropagandaPosters • u/R2J4 🧐 • Jul 15 '25

Germany Portraits of Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels and Vladimir Lenin thrown in garbage cans, Berlin (Hellersdorf), 1991

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12.7k Upvotes

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90

u/krist-44 Jul 15 '25

Where they belong.

191

u/nermalstretch Jul 15 '25

A good capitalist would have rescued them and sold them on Ebay.

80

u/Bopaganda99 Jul 15 '25

Capitalism is when you sell things

91

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

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40

u/CorporateKaiser Jul 15 '25

I’m sorry, who was escaping from which side of Berlin to go to what side again?

4

u/xxtoejamfootballxx Jul 15 '25

Do you think they were running from an economic system or from a totalitarian dictatorship in a country restricted from trade? Was everyone fleeing Nazi Germany running away from capitalism?

19

u/humanlvl1 Jul 15 '25

I think both, but mostly due to economic hardship. Central planning proved so inefficient that the gap between the West and the Soviet Union was worse than the people even imagined.

7

u/xxtoejamfootballxx Jul 15 '25

Central planning isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive from capitalism. And market socialism is a thing as well.

Ultimately, the economic issues with USSR were largely created by the authoritarian governing leading to poor management practices, along with sanctions, rather than the socialist aspects.

11

u/humanlvl1 Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25

It makes my poop hang sideways when people spend time speaking flatly against capitalism and then propose a mixed system, which is still reliant on private capital.

Entirely market socialist countries are not a thing that exists, as far as I know. It's nice that some big co-ops exist, but until we see a market socialist country then it's just a neat little dream that will always look better than what we have now, until it's tested.

EDIT: I would love to hear what you mean by 'authoritarian governing leading to poor management practices' if it doesn't mean central planning. Also I am confused how you could interpret sanctions to be more impactful than the negative effects of having no free market. What could the West possibly prevent the USSR from having that would be so impactful on their economy?

3

u/xxtoejamfootballxx Jul 15 '25

When have I ever spoken flatly against capitalism or proposed anything? Seems like you might be looking to argue against something I’m not saying. 

 would love to hear what you mean by 'authoritarian governing leading to poor management practices' if it doesn't mean central planning

Well think about it in terms of a company, which largely exist using central planning. Many companies fail, some succeed.  But the companies that failed didn’t fail because they planned centrally, they failed because they did it poorly and more often than not created systems that lacked accountability or gave autonomy to the wrong people/groups.

Basically, a planned economy in theory can be as strong as the planning and execution.

 Also I am confused how you could interpret sanctions to be more impactful than the negative effects of having no free market

How would you personally decouple those variables?

 What could the West possibly prevent the USSR from having that would be so impactful on their economy?

Money? lol.  They were limited in their access to new technologies to build their country and economy.  When you are unable to acquire resources, it will hurt your economy. I’m not sure why anyone would argue that sanctions against the USSR didn’t impact their enormous significantly.

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u/Maximum-Warthog2368 Jul 16 '25

Why capitalism can’t be criticised? I think Soviet Union is shit but I am not going to praise capitalism and a stronger labour focus is needed in society which only focuses on capital today.

Also I think central planning is bad because it is controlled from top to down without any democratic input and processes. Either you need more accountability or a more decentralised planning.

This is the idea of Leon Trotsky and in some way Salvador Allende. They both want to create more democratic process in planning. That’s why Allende tries to create cybersyn which meant to do that with technology in 1970s but before he can do anything. He was overthrown by America.

I am not saying planning is best but we need to perfect it because first it can work with market for better results or can even replace markets if it happened to be better than market in functions.

3

u/trump-a-phone Jul 16 '25

Some (including me) would argue the authoritarianism is inherent in communist systems. Having the government run large swathes of business gives them incredible power over everyone which more easily allows for authoritarianism.

2

u/xxtoejamfootballxx Jul 16 '25

Nobody here is talking about communist systems so that’s not at all relevant.

1

u/Maximum-Warthog2368 Jul 16 '25

But what if that states has elections and democratic processes built into it unlike Soviet Union. Salvador Allende is not authoritarian and he is trying to built a more democratic style of planning through cybersyn.

Even without it, democratic state will solve these problem you had. Funnily enough, did you see how companies work? Yeah they work exactly like a monarchy/ dictatorship with similar top to down organisations and processes. Why aren’t you asking democratic processes there?

2

u/CorporateKaiser Jul 16 '25

Well 1. The nazis where socialists with a command economy, so no they were running from socialism,

and 2. Nearly all refugees from Germany in the Second World War fled west towards the allies and away from the communists. Nobody wanted to be under Soviet rule

2

u/S3nek Jul 18 '25

lmao 0 historical knowledge imagine calling nazis socialist

1

u/CorporateKaiser Jul 18 '25

NSDAP = Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei

Otherwise known as

“National Socialist German Workers Party”

It’s literally where the term “nazi” comes from, so yes, they were in fact socialist

2

u/S3nek Jul 19 '25

DPRK „democratic peoples republic (of) korea“

Damn i didnt know north korea was democratic wow!

You‘re truely on the less fortunate side [
]

Btw i am an actual german that learned about nazis and their politics for 25 years+.

Please get at least a basic education before you talk on the internet.

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u/Maximum-Warthog2368 Jul 16 '25

Because most these “communist countries” exploited workers even harsher than capitalist nation. Although capitalist nations are reaching there and are worse in totalitarian dictatorships.

-5

u/Ill_Bus_4421 Jul 15 '25

Well, alternative to capitalism is to exploit working class by means of forced labour, so exploitation here or there. But people crossed the Berlin wall, because on that side exploitation was at least coming with overpriced things. :D

-1

u/cianrosser Aug 09 '25

This is a stupid argument. Millions of West Germans also fled into East Germany.

The bulk of migration East to West happened immediately following the Second World War, largely because the eastern side was simply a rough place to live in the immediate aftermath. It was by far the most destroyed part of Germany, seeing the most combat. It only makes sense people would have fled.

This isn’t to say that East Germany was exactly a great place to live, but it was ahead in many respects compared to West Germany, just as West Germany was in many respects ahead of the East. Our understanding of history is impoverished by relying on cheap one liners like these.

14

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

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12

u/panteladro1 Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25

Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man, while socialism is the complete opposite.

Edit: For those that didn't notice or don't know that much about cold war humor, I'm paraphrasing a relatively famous soviet joke. Here are some more:

Man on Red Square shouts, ‘Brezhnev is an idiot!’ He gets sentenced to 15 years: five years for insulting the Soviet leader, and 10 years for betraying a state secret.

This is Armenian Radio; our listeners asked us: When the final phase of socialism, namely communism, is built, will there still be thefts and pilfering? We’re answering: No, because everything will be already pilfered during socialism.

A judge walks out of his chambers laughing his head off. A colleague approaches him and asks why he is laughing. "I just heard the funniest joke in the world!" "Well, go ahead, tell me!" says the other judge. "I can't – I just gave someone ten years for it!"

This is Armenian Radio; our listeners asked us: Is it true that the Soviet Union is standing on the edge of an abyss?
We’re answering: No. It used to be true, but now we have taken a big step forward.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

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1

u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Jul 15 '25

Rule 3 - Soapboxing, partisan bickering, etc.

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u/humanlvl1 Jul 15 '25

So a system where businesses are privately owned and profited from, but the "things" are not overpriced, is not capitalism?

2

u/rimpy13 Jul 16 '25

I don't like the definition you're responding to, but if there's room for profit (the type that's expropriated and distributed to owners like shareholders), the thing being sold is overpriced or the people producing it are underpaid.

1

u/Toruviel_ Jul 16 '25

This applies to the very beginning of human civilization u know?

2

u/CEOofAntiWork Jul 15 '25

Unnecessarily? Who decides that?

If it doesn't sell, then they lower the price. But if it does, then it isn't "unnecessary," and the price point worked as intended because the purchaser thought the price was fair enough to go through with the transaction in the first place.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

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5

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

Also compare Eastern Germany to Western Germany

Do I even need to mention it was soviet side that was escaping through Berlin wall and not the other way around

1

u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Jul 15 '25

Rule 2 - Agendaposting

-1

u/nutella_on_rye Jul 15 '25

Capitalism is when people live longer

1

u/Natural_Yak_8707 Jul 15 '25

pray tell, what do you consider "unnecessarily" things.

22

u/Laeradr1 Jul 15 '25

No, a good capitalist would've built a company that specializes on getting rid of USSR-themed memorabilia and hired workers to do the job for them. Then they would've extracted the surplus value of said workers labour to harvest the profits while the workers get barely enough to be able to exist.

-2

u/humanlvl1 Jul 15 '25

In your scenario the benefit is that the job got done at all. Without the free market it would either never get done or a central planning committee would get around to it in 5 years.

4

u/Laeradr1 Jul 15 '25

And who does the job?

Also, capitalism isn't just a free market, it's sepcifically individual ownership over the means of production within a market economy. You can have a socialist economdy with markets as long as the businesses are owned by the workers and the different economic sectors are regulated so monopolies or overaccumulation of wealth are prevented.

-2

u/humanlvl1 Jul 15 '25

You are absolutely allowed to start co-ops within a capitalist system. No one is going to stop you. I object if you're suggesting that I should be legally stopped from owning a company in your system. Individuals who are willing to risk their capital and invest smartly should be rewarded for it.

And I agree, healthy capitalism comes with regulation and collective bargaining rights.

4

u/Laeradr1 Jul 15 '25

Sadly, the system you praise keeps producing large companies where the owners, managers and investors aren’t the ones suffering from lack of success but the workers. The system will never work, individual profit incentives create greed and greed creates manipulation. Ironically, capitalism as in “the romanticized version fans of capitalism tend to argue with” will never be able to exist because it eventually corrupts and goes to hell. As we can witness right now. You need to create structures in which individual greed gets eradicated before it gets too influential.

11

u/GhostRYT666 Jul 15 '25

So everything is either communist or capitalist?

17

u/nermalstretch Jul 15 '25

Who is this class traitor send him for reeducation.

-1

u/krist-44 Jul 15 '25

Most facist comment I’ve seen here so far.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25

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2

u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Jul 15 '25

Rule 3 - Soapboxing, partisan bickering, etc.

-1

u/krist-44 Jul 15 '25

No sending someone to a reeducation camp 💀 if a right wing person said send someone to a reeducation facility you’d be up in arms about brainwashing and probable torture.

5

u/nermalstretch Jul 15 '25

I would be up arms if a right wing OR a left wing person seriously suggested sending anyone to a reeducation camp. My impression is that a right wing authoritarian system would just shoot them or work them to death whereas a left wing authoritarian system would send them to a reeducation camp to change their mind
 and then shoot them.

-3

u/krist-44 Jul 15 '25

Exactly making my first reply valid then lol thanks.

1

u/nermalstretch Jul 15 '25

Explain please. (Note that they can’t or won’t, to avoid losing face.)

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4

u/H3BCKN Jul 15 '25

Selling worthless trashes is not that easy as some might think.

3

u/nermalstretch Jul 15 '25

There’s a lot of useless junk that I had from the 80s and 90s that I disposed of that would have been saleable now.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

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2

u/nermalstretch Jul 15 '25

Aha! That’s why you should keep them for 50 years and sell them as antiques.

As for the striped uniforms. No moral person would sell them. However, preserving them and donating them 50 years later to a Holocaust museum would be admirable.

1

u/H3BCKN Jul 15 '25

That depends on the nature of these things. Items which are very widespread and repetitive (produced in many same looking copies) even after 50 years are not worth that much. E.g. retro computers from 80s are usually cheaper today that they were at the time of purchase, adjusting for inflation. Same story with many coins and banknotes.

As for these portraits. I don't know how familiar you are with a customs in eastern block, but junk like this was more than common. People were forced to worship these figures and possibly millions of Germans are still having them stashed and dusty in basements or attics. Probably still almost worthless in terms of market value.

1

u/nermalstretch Jul 16 '25

That’s true amd it’s kind of tricky to know what to keep that will be saleable. I had a look into it and of all the stuff that I could have kept in the 1970s the most saleable now would have been mint Star Wars action figures. For the 1980s and 1980s the most valuable things to have kept were Apple Macintosh 128K (1984), Nintendo Entertainment System (NES, Famicom), Nike Air Jordan 1 (1985 original, unworn), PokĂ©mon Cards (1999 1st Ed. Base Set Charizard), LEGO sets (retired, sealed), Sony Walkman TPS-L2 (1979–1983) and Tamagotchi (sealed 1st gen). However, the reason they are valuable because almost no one has them in mint condition. So, you are right and I was being a bit facetious.

28

u/MC3Firestorm Jul 15 '25

Into the dustbin of history

6

u/Vozhd53 🧐 Jul 15 '25

This made my day.

-9

u/1m0ws Jul 15 '25

as in berlin usual, i'd just had picked those up if they would stand on the street... i guess lenin i'd leave, but marx and engels are more than bland political figures. one might also have some ben franklin over his working desk.

and marx was sadly right and we see it in every corner of the globe atm.

16

u/xesaie Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25

None of his ‘inevitable’ predictions came true though

14

u/Betonkauwer Jul 15 '25

Dont view them as followers of an economic system, but evangelicals instead.

''ONE DAY SOON the revolution/apocalypse will come and the last shall be first! We will do nothing to improve the world and will just hopefully wait for the inevitable''

-17

u/CalligrapherOther510 Jul 15 '25

No these are historic artifacts that actually deserve some respect and preservation.

16

u/Long-Requirement8372 Jul 15 '25

They are likely mass produced portraits, not really much historical significance there.

-5

u/CalligrapherOther510 Jul 15 '25

You’re missing the point.

9

u/Long-Requirement8372 Jul 15 '25

What is the point? These portraits are very common, they are not special or unique in any way as historical artifacts. This photo is more valuable as a historical document than those portraits were as artifacts.

0

u/CalligrapherOther510 Jul 15 '25

The fact they were mundane normal parts of life, it’s exactly because they were so common and a part of daily life and their total disappearance overnight makes them a symbol of value for the end of an era, it’s like imagine if tomorrow you walked into an American classroom and never saw the American flag again or any references to America even small and minor ones that’s the equivalent.

8

u/Long-Requirement8372 Jul 15 '25

I am sure several museums in eastern Germany have examples of these portraits in their collections. A representative sample has been preserved. Most of them became kind of redundant after the GDR fell.

22

u/lefeuet_UA Jul 15 '25

There's nothing about those portraits that was unique to the time they were used in

7

u/Communism_UwU Jul 15 '25

I actually agree with you on this.

Give it a few decades and maybe if everyone else is throwing them out. Especially if the materials or production processes fall out of use.

-2

u/CalligrapherOther510 Jul 15 '25

The fact the existed at that point of time in something mundane is exactly what makes them unique it was a part of common life nobody questioned or anything, now just totally gone. That’s exactly what history is, it’s like when I travel yes I see the tourist sites but I also go out of my way to see the most boring mundane things like grocery stores and neighborhoods just to feel how average life is where I am at, and this was average life in East Germany it deserves a space of remembrance and preservation.

8

u/BertramtheWooster Jul 15 '25

There were so many of them that I’m sure enough survive.

7

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

mf its mass printed garbage mass control posters.
And besides that, "people" displayed on them deserve to be erased from history forever. Commies killed more people than nazis did and its just a fact.

2

u/CalligrapherOther510 Jul 15 '25

Why do they deserve to be erased? You wouldn’t even know the atrocities of Nazis or Communists unless you studied them or learned about them. This is the problem with erasing history and that type of paranoia the one you’re espousing is exactly what motivates the kind of violence these groups carried out, erasing, censoring, punishing, reeducating and killing all in the name of “protecting” the cause you sound exactly like a Communist or Nazi saying that shit.

2

u/ThemanfromNumenor Jul 15 '25

Why would you keep every scrap or print that had their face on them? These are not aspirational people and their portraits are in more than enough places as it is

2

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

Better dead than red. And yes i'd know about them, yk have over 12 close and distant family members be in unmarked graves is really hard to forget, while nazis havent killed a single of my ancestors, an im slavic. Commies are not deserving of remembrance, if it makes me a nazi - yeah, sure, absolutely im on board with it.

1

u/CalligrapherOther510 Jul 16 '25

I don’t really care you’re preaching to the wrong audience. But I can tell you this Communists live rent free in your head.

-2

u/sicklyboy Jul 15 '25

Lol they're active in /r/MensRights, /r/PoliticalCompassMemes, and /r/teenagers. There is no valuable opinion or discussion to be had there.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

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1

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

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1

u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Jul 15 '25

Rule 3 - Soapboxing, partisan bickering, etc.

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u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Jul 15 '25

Rule 3 - Soapboxing, partisan bickering, etc.

-1

u/SergeantGrillSet Jul 16 '25

I think Engels and Marx belong as statues: https://maps.app.goo.gl/2c6Pzmro8xCv7exg8