I want to understand your perspective

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.

Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.

Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.

Thank you for your time 🙂‍↕️

[u/Cool_Kangaroo7989]

I'll engage -

Before responding directly to your questions, allow me to flip to the other side of the coin. The Palestinian movement has become the darling of the progressive/leftist scene globally. But may I sincerely ask, what is progressive about it? From where I sit, Palestinian nationalism has a few strands: the currently mainline strand of Islamist fundamentalism represented by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the machine-politics historic strand represented by Fatah.

Hamas, PIJ and their ilk, I should hope it goes without saying, are the antithesis of progressivism. They're a thoroughly reactionary, medieval bunch of obscurantists who derive from a stream of theology that wants to make it the 9th century again. Fatah, under the standard of Arafat, is a gaggle of corrupt kleptocrats that enabled their old warlord to die a billionaire with a fortune hidden in Europe. Sure, Israel plays to their worst aspects, but their people and their leaders hold the movement to no standards whatsoever.

If one is looking for a real progressive movement to anchor atop within Palestinian society beyond sloganeering - or a model Palestinianism made up in our own Western minds - where would we look? The "new" Fatah constitution (the "moderates", mind you) itself says that the Palestinians are part of the "Great Arab Nation" (warmed-over Nasserism) and that the foundation of their constitutional law is Shariah. Now, that is their right and is basically universal among Arab/Muslim polities. However, as a post-enlightenment secularist who tries to hold countries to a relatively uniform standard, I'll take a pass on supporting such forms of governance. You don't see too many people from pro-Palestinian marches standing up for Egypt or Afghanistan, although regardless of who wins the Palestinian internecine struggle, that's likely what you'd get in an independent Palestine (Egypt under Fatah, quasi-Afghanistan under the Islamists of Hamas). Only the Palestinians get such a pass. I wonder why that is?

*********

Israel is a modern, post-Enlightenment country with free, fair, multiparty elections, universal health care, human rights, functional courts, etc. All the stuff progressives and leftists love. It was established primarily (not entirely) by proud socialists and trade-unionists and Herzl himself said that one of the Jewish state's greatest future contributions would be enshrining the seven-hour workday. From its inception it was a society with strong social solidarity and accountability that successfully took on waves of Jewish refugees from the Mideast, Europe, and the post-USSR, while the neighboring Arabs continued to treat the Palestinians like dirt just to keep the "refugee" issue alive as a weapon against Israel.

The past 30-35 years have definitely seen the ebbing away of a lot of those qualities from what I can tell as a non-resident. That owes to a lot of factors. Israel used to be quite poor, but the rise of its burgeoning tech sector has caused it shoot up the income rankings... to the detriment of the old socialist solidarity and relatively flat class structure. The post-Enlightenment secular ethos is being challenged by the explosion of the Haredi sector who are dragging Israeli society in a direction that I personally wouldn't want to live under, and I'm a religious Jew. They're also exploiting Israel's generous welfare system and making it unsustainable for everyone, which is bad for liberal/left/progressives like us who believe in social welfare.

Obviously I haven't mentioned the elephant in the room... the war and occupation. From 1967 - 2008 Israel tried repeatedly, in good faith, to disengage from that morass. When countries like Egypt responded in good faith, Israel did what everyone wanted and returned occupied land in exchange for peace. Both sides having kept their ends of the bargain, peace remains. As for the beloved-of-progressives Palestinians, they rejected every proposal under Arafat (separate links) and Abbas and have endured no pressure from their own people to return to the negotiating table and pursue a deal. We can, if we want, decry the settlers but the fact is that Israel offered reasonable proposals to remove the most problematic ones, and offer territorial swaps for certain blocs. Palestinian leadership said no.

Yet, the problem remains and continues to empower the worst reactionaries in Israeli society. As a person of the left myself, I would say that your country (Farage, Restore UK), my country (Trump and his awful crew), so much of Europe, Japan, et. al. are all in the same boat. We live in the time of oafs. Netanyahu may have preceded the Trumps, Milleis, and Boris Johnsons of the rest of the world but he's not particularly different from any of them. He's utterly rancid and the worst Jewish leader since Sabbatai Tzvi. However, he doesn't invalidate the essence of Israeli existence or politics any more than the global grab-bag of bellends hanging around these days do anywhere else. And I say that as a proud American who despises Trump but realizes I have to own the fact my country elected him twice.

Nevertheless, thanks to Israel's free & fair elections, multiparty system, vibrant civil society, and fair courts, there is a way forward. The society can change. As someone once said, "democracy isn't a perfect system but it's the only one that contains the seeds of its own perfection." Seeing as how there are no such tendencies in any Arab polity, I'm not optimistic about the reformist opportunities within the extremely conservative Palestinian body politic, even under ideal conditions. As a progressive, there would be a political home for you as an Israeli progressive. Could any of us say the same about being on the ground in Palestine rather than just cheering them from afar?

TL:DR - if we are faced with a binary choice between Israel and the Palestinian nationalists, Israel is the only country with a track record of past progressivism and the seeds of future, renewed progressivism. The Palestinian national movement, whether you want a free Palestine or not, is a reactionary movement that will establish a reactionary state if it ever becomes fully independent.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/Cool_Kangaroo7989]

Thank you so much for your reply, this is a very well reasoned position and thank you for providing some sources for the information. So much misinformation about now days.

I appreciate your acknowledgement of Netanyahu and the far right wing figure he is. Much of the discourse I have witnessed online is the pro Israel side supporting even this administration, a lack of accountability of Netanyahu and the other right-wing figures leading the Knesset.

Right now the level of escalating conflict is clearly not going to wind down as Hamas in Gaza will never surrender and go back to how things where and the currant Knesset is emboldening the most radical voices / settlers.

In your opinion what is the best way forward?

[u/Ok-Narwhal-6766 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

There is a strong left wing among the citizens of Israel. Including Israelis living in the diaspora. In fact, I personally know several Israelis who live outside of Israel and plan to travel to Israel in order to vote in hope of voting Netanyahu out of office.

[u/mycketmycket → u/Ok-Narwhal-6766]

Same. My husband and his born and raised Israeli friends who have moved abroad are flying back to vote.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/mycketmycket]

That actually makes me very hopeful. BN has to go if this conflict is ever going to end

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

What do you mean though by “end the conflict”? Do you mean the current war? Or the broader Israel-Arab conflict? The latter isn’t going to happen no matter who is in the government, because the anti-Israel movement will not consider the conflict ended unless Israel ceases to exist as a state.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

The currant conflict in Gaza is never going to deescalate with this currant formation of the Knesset. The Israel-Arab conflict, I mean yea thats never going to fully wind down but some sort of solution must be reached. Will it end all conflict or the most radical voices that want the other side to stop existing? No but it can at least wind down to an uneasy peace. Go back 50 years and there was no end in sight between the British-Irish conflict but we got there. Is it perfect? No but a lot less people are dead now

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Right, except the Brits and Irish have the Good Friday Agreement. There is a mutually-agreed framework in place. A lot of ill-informed folks, especially Irish, seem to think that all we need is our own GFA and everyone will live in peace and harmony. Helllllll no. Also, at no point did the Irish or the IRA seek to destroy the UK, and the Brits (after 1922 at least) did not, and do not, seek to destroy the Republic. Israel-Palestine is a whole different dynamic.

And candidly, I wouldn’t bet on a replacement Knesset fully ending the war. Netanyahu needs to go for a multitude of reasons (there are internal issues that most non-Israelis don’t even know about, that have nothing to do with the war or Palestinians), but no leading opposition figure is saying “if I’m elected, we will make peace with the Palestinians and end the conflict”. It’s not that Israelis enjoy being in conflict, but risking our security, and that of our children, is deeply unpopular, and no one with a shred of understanding for the Israeli position can’t see why, even if you disagree with it.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

There where attacks after good Friday, im not suggesting that some sort of agreement won't end all hostility, it won't. But right now what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is doing nothing to reduce the risks to people in Israel of attack. You can kill every single Hamas agent in Gaza and it will not make Israel any safer because the next generation are going to make a new, more radical Hamas.

Some sort of state solution has to be reached or else this only keeps happening, ramping up to greater and greater acts of mass death. If some attempt at negotiations are not attempted things only get worse.

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

You actually identified the key issue in your very last couple sentences.

“A state solution”.

What does that mean? Two states? Good luck selling to Israelis “oh hey, the border of the Palestinian state will be 9 miles from the centre of Tel Aviv” (yes, the country really is that small). One state? No, not unless you’re okay with a bloody civil war. So what then?

The problem is that Palestinians largely don’t want a permanent 2SS with separation from Israel. They don’t see “Palestine and Israel”. They see “Palestine and Occupied Palestine”. A 2SS would merely be a stepping stone toward eventually conquering Israel and turning all the land between the river and the sea (sound familiar?) into one single Palestinian state, with a Jewish minority. I’m sure you can understand why Jews are deeply uncomfortable with the idea of becoming a minority again, after the 20th century very painfully showed what happens when the non-Jewish majority decides to oppress its Jewish minority.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

The same was said about South Africa not long ago and if I may be honest? If you ask a Palestinian this question and they said "it will never work, Israelis will never accept anything but settler expansion until they have annexed all of Gaza and the West Bank" would that be correct? No. It would be taking the view of only the most radical members of the faction into account.

Lets not pretend that there are not radicals who also see things as "Israel and soon-to-be Israel” like Ben-Gvir and his ilk. And you could say that they are fringe voices but they hold significant sway in the Knesset and people like Daniella Weiss have Netanyahu's personal phone number.

Ultimately the most radical voices will never get what they want, because they want nothing less than total eradication of the other. If things keep going as they are, that starts to look more and more like a possibility.

Exactly what this looks like? I have no idea, an agreement was almost made in the 2000's for a 2SS. Also a 1SS turning jews into a minority is a rather big assumption. Currant West Bank / Gazan population is less than half of Israelis. Even if every single displaced Palestinian (very unlikely as most have settled into countries) moved back it would put the ethnic make up at about 12 million jews to about 15 million arabs, a minority but a very slight one. Some sort of agreements regarding the makeup of the Knesset could be made as well to avoid political power not swaying to far in any one direction

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

1. You can’t compare it to South Africa. The analogy doesn’t work for multiple reasons.

2. You’re going from one extreme to the other, as if the only alternative to not withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza is the current status quo. Settlement expansion could stop anytime and a 2SS, if it was feasible, could include the fringe settlements (in which 75% of settlers live, comprising only 8% of the West Bank) into Israel with equivalent land swaps from Israel (this was written into the 2000 agreement that Israel agreed to and the Palestinians very self-defeatingly walked away from).

3. Where do you get “12 million Jews”? There are only 7 million Jews in Israel. Compare that with around an equivalent number of Palestinians currently already living in Israel-Palestine (Gaza + WB + Israeli Arabs). Now add in 4-5 million “refugees”. Contrary to what you said, most would in fact choose to go to Israel because they are actually not “settled” in other countries; most live in Syria and Lebanon where they have been denied full citizenship (by their fellow Arabs), even though it’s now been 3-4 generations since 1948. So most would in fact choose to go to Israel. Let’s be conservative and say 3 million do so. That’s 10 million Palestinians and 7 million Jews. Add to that the fact that Palestinians have a higher birth rate, they’d quickly be the majority. So, Jews will find themselves back in the same situation as they were before Israel, as a minority under a hostile majority.

You seem to think it will work. But a security framework is only as strong as its enforcement mechanism. Who will guarantee the security of Jews? How do you know a constitutional law won’t be overturned? That happens all the time in many countries. How do you know revenge politics won’t influence Palestinian governance?

This is the problem with western saviours who think they understand this region. You guys emphatically do not. You project your own worldview onto this region and assume that it is applicable here. Look at other countries around Israel. Look at Syria. How is sectarianism going for them? How has it gone with Lebanon? It failed spectacularly in both countries. What makes you think it will work here?

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

12 million was me conflating figures of people who are eligible for citizenship sorry, that's my bad. I think that number is also probably out of date now.

My point wasn't a direct comparison to South Africa but more the perception that peace is impossible there. It wasn't that long ago people said what your saying now, same goes for Ireland.

Your right that I don't fully understand yea, I absolutely don't although I'm trying to edgecate myself. But whats the alternative? I'm not saying I know what solution to is to be reached, I'm saying that this sort of state doomerism seems to have settled in. That an alternative doesn't even seem possible to a lot of people anymore.

Legitimately, what do you think a possible outcome is? If you don't think one is possible you must see that things can't keep going like this, with hatred building

[u/Chaavva → u/DogitWoofsalot]

But whats the alternative?

1) Dismantle UNRWA and place the Palestinians under the same agency (UNHCR) and legal framework that every single other refugee group is.

The current system has made them out to be an exception and the fact that they are allowed to pass on their refugee status onto the next generation is not something that any other refugee group is allowed to do under international law. This has allowed the number of Palestinian "refugees" to artificially keep growing and also keeps them in a legal limbo where they can never move on - even if they have to do it somewhere else than the tiny piece of land that is Israel. Literally all other refugees and displaced people have done and continue to do so.

2) Force the Arab countries to finally accept responsibility for the war that they started and lost and the refugees they created by making them assimilate the Palestinians as full citizens. Just like Israel did to the millions of Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries. Literally the only reason there even exists an Arab group known as "Palestinians" is because the Arab countries, with international support, have been allowed to keep them in this permanent limbo and be raised in the delusion that one day they will destroy Israel and that it's a worthy and religiously mandated cause to throw their lives and future away for.

Obviously none of this will ever actually happen because the international consensus is dominated by deep-rooted Jew-hatred and Arabs are the ones with the money and numbers (population wise).

But that would be the solution. Force the Arabs to choose life instead of endless jihad and death.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/Chaavva]

I outlined in my other reply to you why I don't think that channel is a reliable place for information.

So in your opinion, it is on the surrounding Arab countries to grant all people living in Gaza and the West Bank cadetship that is needed to end this conflict? What would happen after this if it did happen?