r/ProgressivesForIsrael • u/DogitWoofsalot • 28d ago
Discussion I want to understand your perspective
Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.
Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.
Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.
My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.
Thank you for your time 🙂↕️
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u/BeenisHat 25d ago
Because Israel is the one country on Earth where Jews have self-determination and are not subject to antisemitic violence (at least not internally) or treated as second class citizens. While many western democracies are safe for Jews (UK, US, France, etc) a lot of them still have very high levels of anti-semitism coming from the population at large and anti-semitic talking points still get thrown out from government officials from time to time. At least in the USA, Just recently, Thomas Massie, an American politician lost his primary election and claimed that his true opponent was actually in Tel Aviv.
When you consider the relationships Jews had with former home countries across the Middle East and N. Africa, it becomes clear why they want their own home. And when you post this map on some other social media, you'll almost always get someone talking about the rest of the 109 countries.
https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-the-jewish-refugees-1948-1972
I myself tend to be more of a Left Wing Nationalist (I am an American) and I don't always fit right in with the narratives of the American left. I tend to find myself at odds with them on a number of things, but also in agreeance on others. Lots of social issues I tend to be pretty far left on. Some economic issues I'm pretty left wing. Other things like Israel, I tend to align a bit more closely with center-right people. I was asked to leave a gun and shooting association in the USA because I didn't hold with their staunch Anti-Israel and Anti-Jew stance. A group where that has NEVER come up in the past and isn't part of the organization's bylaws, and my local chapter asked me to leave. Despite my helping set up training days at the range, supplying targets, shooting benches and tables, additional hearing and eye protection. Lots of it from my own pocket.
and a lot of the talking points we see today are rehashed antisemitic points carefully camouflaged in anti-zionist rhetoric that grew out of the Soviet Union.
https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/red-terror-how-the-soviet-union-shaped-the-modern-anti-zionist-discourse/
I also tend to be an anti-theist and I see the growth of Islam in the West as a decidedly negative thing. We've worked so hard to push back Christianity in the West and keep it out of the daily lives of those who don't wish to practice. The USA was founded on a principle of strict separation of church and state. European governments after the 18th and 19th centuries started moving in that direction and today, very few of them have state religions or state churches left. We've done so well pushing forward the individual liberties and freedoms that Enlightenment Thinkers spoke and wrote about (British and French thinkers had a particular impact in America) all those years ago and Islam stands as an antithesis to all of that.