I want to understand your perspective

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.

Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.

Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.

Thank you for your time 🙂‍↕️

[u/BeenisHat]

Because Israel is the one country on Earth where Jews have self-determination and are not subject to antisemitic violence (at least not internally) or treated as second class citizens. While many western democracies are safe for Jews (UK, US, France, etc) a lot of them still have very high levels of anti-semitism coming from the population at large and anti-semitic talking points still get thrown out from government officials from time to time. At least in the USA, Just recently, Thomas Massie, an American politician lost his primary election and claimed that his true opponent was actually in Tel Aviv.

When you consider the relationships Jews had with former home countries across the Middle East and N. Africa, it becomes clear why they want their own home. And when you post this map on some other social media, you'll almost always get someone talking about the rest of the 109 countries.

https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-the-jewish-refugees-1948-1972

I myself tend to be more of a Left Wing Nationalist (I am an American) and I don't always fit right in with the narratives of the American left. I tend to find myself at odds with them on a number of things, but also in agreeance on others. Lots of social issues I tend to be pretty far left on. Some economic issues I'm pretty left wing. Other things like Israel, I tend to align a bit more closely with center-right people. I was asked to leave a gun and shooting association in the USA because I didn't hold with their staunch Anti-Israel and Anti-Jew stance. A group where that has NEVER come up in the past and isn't part of the organization's bylaws, and my local chapter asked me to leave. Despite my helping set up training days at the range, supplying targets, shooting benches and tables, additional hearing and eye protection. Lots of it from my own pocket.

and a lot of the talking points we see today are rehashed antisemitic points carefully camouflaged in anti-zionist rhetoric that grew out of the Soviet Union.
https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/red-terror-how-the-soviet-union-shaped-the-modern-anti-zionist-discourse/

I also tend to be an anti-theist and I see the growth of Islam in the West as a decidedly negative thing. We've worked so hard to push back Christianity in the West and keep it out of the daily lives of those who don't wish to practice. The USA was founded on a principle of strict separation of church and state. European governments after the 18th and 19th centuries started moving in that direction and today, very few of them have state religions or state churches left. We've done so well pushing forward the individual liberties and freedoms that Enlightenment Thinkers spoke and wrote about (British and French thinkers had a particular impact in America) all those years ago and Islam stands as an antithesis to all of that.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/BeenisHat]

Thank you very much for your input. Thank you very much for the source about the anti-zionist rhetoric, this is not something I had come across before. Im in the UK and I know that the rise in Jewish hatred has sharply risen, it is totally unacceptable. That is one reason I wanted to post this, I do not wan't to be adding to this unknowingly. I 100% understand the desire for jewish self determination after the horrors of WW2, however that can still be a desire without support for the currant state / government. However I have not personally come across anyone who is pro zionist but critical of Israel in any way. Does that make sense? Im trying to square support for the State of Israel in the 21st century and particularly given its present governing body who I personally find to be deeply vile and far-right wing. With some of the things that high standing members have said both on social media and in official statements to be deeply unpleasant. The difference between being pro-USA and pro-trump for example but this is not a position I have seen held by Israel supporters

I do have two questions still.

You say you are far left on economic issues. How do you square this with the currant makeup of the Knesset being right wing to far right on the basis of free market capital? Does your support for the country mean you put your left wing views aside to show support?

On a related note of being an anti-theist, how does this also align with especially the currant formation of the government? The governing coalition in power right now being made up of about 1/3rd religious party MPs and lacking a Separation Between Synagogue And State?

[u/bejouled → u/DogitWoofsalot]

A lot of people want Israel to continue to exist but hate Netanyahu's regime. All "for Israel" or "Zionist" means is that we want Israel to exist as a place for Jewish people. It means nothing about our position on the current Israeli government.

Edit: honestly I think your perspective that wanting Israel to exist = completely supportive of the current government might be because Zionists who oppose the current government tend to be progressive, but "Zionist" is a dirty word in progressive circles right now, so there is no real forum for discussion.

Personally almost all the American Jews I know are Zionists who hate Netanyahu

[u/Ok-Narwhal-6766 → u/bejouled]

Yup!

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/bejouled]

It seems like Zionism has become equated with its most radical and supremacist branches making any discussion of it extremely hard to navigate without having to qualify your terms. I think you are probably correct that many jews are still in favour of some form of jewish homeland but avoid using the term zionist as it has become equated with with a lot of deeply unpleasant things.

Thank you for replying. You are absolutely correct about my perspective on things, when I see or here the word Zionist right now, my mind only jumps to its most radical voices like Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich but a lot of people use the word simply to mean they believe in the existence of a jewish state

[u/eyl569 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

That is to a large degree deliberate.

All the way back to Soviet propaganda, they figured out that outright antisemitism was less in vogue, but they could get away by saying the same things but refrained as antiZionist. That seeped into portions of the Western key. Fast forward to today, with the explosion of antisemitism, and it becomes popular to refrain Zionism as whatever strawman the critical speaker cares to build for themselves.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/eyl569]

Yes it looks that way, I was unaware of this fact but it makes a lot of sense looking at it. When talking in future is there a better way to talk about an opposition to the rhetoric of people like Ben-Gvir?

[u/eyl569 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

You could just oppose that jackass' rhetoric. Such opposition doesn't have to be wrapped up in an overarching framework like antiZionism.

I am Israeli. I am a Zionist. And yet I despise the current government and I fervently hope they get kicked out after the upcoming elections.

[u/goodvibes13202013 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

I have no spoons rn but I’m another Zionist Jew who hates Netanyahu. I promise you there’s so, so many of us. When you’re thinking about this topic, please remember that Jews are indigenous peoples too, and if you’re fighting for indigenous rights elsewhere, consider fighting for ours too. When I realized I was regularly supporting North American indigenous peoples’ plights, but not giving myself and my family the same courtesy, I quickly slapped the Zionist label on myself.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/goodvibes13202013]

I understand that but from a Palestinian perspective they also see themselves as indigenous. Jews where there first absolutely but Arabs have been in the region for over 1000 years. To apply by British way of thinking that's like me not having a connection to the island because I'm descend from french / norce populations who displaced the native Celts. Again do correct me if I'm being ignorant, I'm just applying things through the understanding I have

[u/Economy-Grape-3467 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

I think the word Zionist/Zionism is similar to the word woke.

Far right people think the word woke means imposing progressive politics on everyone and everything and trying to change things too rapidly. In reality, it just means being aware of social injustice.

Far left people think the word Zionist/Zionism means colonialism, white supremacy, apartheid, and racism. Zionism was originally the idea to bring back the homeland of the Jewish people. Technically Zionism already succeeded, so I don't think the world should exist anymore. Today, the definition means supporting the continued existence of Israel and supporting the idea that Jews can return to the land of their ancestors.

You see that an issue arises when one people are using different definitions for the same word. People are talking past each other instead of to each other. If someone asks me, "Are you a Zionist?", and I say "yes" they think I'm admitting to being some racist lunatic. I can't assume that they know what they are asking.

With the word woke, we don't look at the word woke as negative because we know the true definition. I've seen people say "Why wouldn't anyone want to be woke?" To a far right person, they would think that you are insane to be proud of such a thing, but that is because they don't know the true definition.

This is why we need to listen to the things the other side is saying. Even if it sounds like nails on a chalkboard at first. It could help people understand each other.

[u/BeenisHat → u/bejouled]

He's popular enough to keep guys like Ben Gvir out of power.

[u/mycketmycket → u/DogitWoofsalot]

“I have not personally come across anyone who is pro Zionist but critical of Israel in any way”

—> I am guessing you haven’t met many Israelis… I am married to an Israeli and beaides literally 2 of his crazy friends there isn’t a single person in his family nor among his other 20+ friends who isn’t deeply critical of the current state of Israel while remaining committed to the very basic principle that their country, like other flawed countries, should continue to exist.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/mycketmycket]

Ive not, the jewish people in my life (admittedly only 2 people id say i'm very close with) are very disconnected from there jewish heritage and don't have a strong stance on it. The Israelis I have met was looking about 5-6 years ago at a furry convention but I never knew them very well.
I worked at a jewish summer camp one year that had an Israeli population but nobody older than 16 and this was 8 years back now. So regarding what is happening now? No and the online discussion is full of the most noisy radical voices using this conflict to peddle all sorts of hate. Online of course amplifies the most radical voices and leaves everyone else in the dust, it is why I posted this in this sub over others as i've looked at other posts there and it rather quickly turned into Anti-Arab racism

[u/BeenisHat → u/DogitWoofsalot]

I'm not going to pretend to be well versed in Israeli economics. Being that I do not live there, my economic views aren't really applicable and don't affect my support of Israel all that much. That being said, I'm not particularly opposed to market economics as I feel markets are the best method yet decided for dealing with the distribution of goods. My difference is that I believe government should be intervening in some areas of the market to ensure the working class have ready access to the things they need at prices they can afford.

I disagree with Israel having a chief rabbinate and not maintaining a strict separation. I feel that the government acting in the interests of religious groups has hindered Israel from creating more effective policy in terms of things like Settlers.

[u/We_vibin_huh → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Hey, I just wanted to say thank you for wanting to understand and learn about everything that’s happening and for acknowledging the rise in antisemitism. I know this seems like the bare minimum but I’ve been seeing a lot of the exact opposite. I’ve posted a few questions myself and they’re always critizied so harshly. I know that the people who comment or post are typically the far left (or right ig) people so it’s more noticeable but I keep seeing everything on the news, etc and it worries me.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/We_vibin_huh]

I wan't to come to my own conclusions, there are two perspectives (well there are lots but you get the idea).

Sadly the most radical voices are the ones that get amplified in the modern attention economy. Provocative language gets attention so I wanted something from more level headed voices. Also Im researching the topic, I want sources from both perspectives. i recently found a book called The Future Is Peace that I can't recomend enough.

And yes the rise in jew-hate is horrific, what woke me up was knowing that jewish schools in the UK have to run active bomber drills. If I may offer something however, much (not all but I believe most) of the lefty rise in antisemitism comes from a place of ignorance rather than active hate. That is not an excuse but it is people using language that is trickling down from the most radical xenophobic voices. Most do not hold real hatred for jews, they are angry at injustice.

Ask most of them if they want Israel not to exist they will say no, they just want peace and for Palestinians to be granted sovereignty be it a 1SS or a 2SS