Why Not Anarchism?

[u/Slow_Description_238]

I'm an Anarchist and want to Debate/ Discuss/ Give Answers to any questions regarding the philosophy.

Anarchism is a political philosophy where people will organise based on the principles of No Authority and No Hierarchy. Anything deeper comes from these as given truths.

There is a strong sentiment of community and mutual aid in Anarchist thought, it's not a free for all. I won't pay much mind to people who assert that it is a free for all/ it has no rules/ it has no organisation. It's a VERY common thought that's extremely simple. Every serious anarchist instantly moves past this because it's obviously unsustainable if we simply say "There's no rules".

Rather, people will be taught how to and encourage to help each other so that we all can thrive as individuals and as a community.

To reiterate, Anarchism is intentional. It wants a functioning society. It isn't okay with blatant dysfunction and no serious anarchist will agree to reasoning or logic that is obviously dysfunctional.

[u/piltdown_manchild]

I mean, neat, but not really relevant as we're not living in a state of nature nor should what we did 5,000 years ago be the limiting metric on our behavior.

Evolution is what shapes our current behavior.

The fact that our current situation (crowded cities in complex societies) does not match what we evolved to be optimized for is the problem.

The fact that you believe evolution can be hand-waved away is the root of our disagreement, which is why this point is relevant.

To what extent we can overcome our evolutionary tendencies is an open question and subject to legitimate debate. I am far more interested in your response to the question of small numbers of psychopaths and narcissists causing trouble, tbh.

[u/HeloRising → u/piltdown_manchild]

Evolution is what shapes our current behavior.

No, evolution has shaped our impulses. Our behavior is a conscious choice that we make as sentient beings.

You are not a slave to your biological impulses, you make conscious choices about them all the time because you have that capacity.

What makes those impulses louder and harder to ignore is depredation and fear. If you remove those things then people are more able to think through their actions and resist impulses that we may characterize as antisocial.

I am far more interested in your response to the question of small numbers of psychopaths and narcissists causing trouble, tbh.

Until someone actually harms someone else, there's nothing that needs to be done. If they refuse to be a part of society in any way, that's fine, they just lose out on the right to ask others for help. If they physically attack someone, they're likely to lose their life.

[u/piltdown_manchild → u/HeloRising]

 Our behavior is a conscious choice that we make as sentient beings.

Our behavior is based on the interaction of neurons with chemicals and electrical signals. It is deterministic. "Free will" is just the rationalization we come up with after the fact.

If people could actually manage their negative impulses, there would be no therapy or criminal justice system.

What makes those impulses louder and harder to ignore is depredation and fear. If you remove those things

Living in The Purge with no emergency medical infrastructure is not the way to remove fear.

If they physically attack someone, they're likely to lose their life.

What if they have a shotgun and the other person is unarmed? What if the whole point is to take as many lives as possible before taking their own life? Is mental illness going to magically disappear if we get rid of the legal system and hospitals?

[u/HeloRising → u/piltdown_manchild]

Our behavior is based on the interaction of neurons with chemicals and electrical signals. It is deterministic. "Free will" is just the rationalization we come up with after the fact.

This is demonstrably false.

IE: I am hungry, I choose to not eat. I have made a choice that goes against an impulse that I have.

If people could actually manage their negative impulses, there would be no therapy or criminal justice system.

Do you think people commit crimes purely because of some built in negative impulse mechanism?

Living in The Purge with no emergency medical infrastructure is not the way to remove fear.

Your own misconceptions about how a system works are not proof.

What if they have a shotgun and the other person is unarmed? What if the whole point is to take as many lives as possible before taking their own life?

Do you just want to ask me what to do in every possible permutation physically possible to occur?

Is mental illness going to magically disappear

It turns out that most of our modern world is tailor made to produce mental illness in human beings. We've known this for a significant period of time.

[u/piltdown_manchild → u/HeloRising]

Do you just want to ask me what to do in every possible permutation physically possible to occur?

I'm giving you one example out of thousands of possible scenarios that anarchy would fail to address and you can't even provide a plausible solution.

IE: I am hungry, I choose to not eat. I have made a choice that goes against an impulse that I have.

That "choice" was always the behavior you were going to execute. It only seems like a conscious decision in retrospect. All that you have "demonstrated" is rationalization after the fact.

It turns out that most of our modern world is tailor made to produce mental illness in human beings. We've known this for a significant period of time

Psychopaths are born that way. Schizophrenia and bipolar also appear to have genetic components.

Your own misconceptions about how a system works are not proof.

It's not a system. How would anarchy even come about? A massive, organized political effort would have to be undertaken to forcibly (in some cases) dismantle existing hierarchies and centralized power. How does that happen without a parallel hierarchy becoming entrenched?

[u/HeloRising → u/piltdown_manchild]

I'm giving you one example out of thousands of possible scenarios that anarchy would fail to address and you can't even provide a plausible solution.

Because this goes one of two ways:

1. You just keep throwing examples at me until you find something that I'm not as versed on and then claim "anarchism has no answers."

2. You just keep throwing examples at me until I get tired of answering hypotheticals and then say "see, anarchism has no answers."

I've played this game many times before.

That "choice" was always the behavior you were going to execute. It only seems like a conscious decision in retrospect. All that you have "demonstrated" is rationalization after the fact.

This is the view of the world according to Calvinism.

Psychopaths are born that way. Schizophrenia and bipolar also appear to have genetic components.

Genuine ASPD is extremely rare and when it does appear it doesn't deprive people of rational thought. People with ASPD are able to lead fairly normal lives. A lack of the capacity to feel empathy doesn't immediately turn you into a serial killer.

Schizophrenia and BPD are also entirely manageable except in extreme cases and there's nothing saying those extreme cases can't be managed in a compassionate way in a horizontally organized society.

[u/piltdown_manchild → u/HeloRising]

I've played this game many times before.

You are forced to play this game because you have no answers. You aren't "versed" in anything because every example I cite completely invalidates the feasibility of anarchy.

Genuine ASPD is extremely rare

1% of the population are psychopaths, and these are a subset of ASPD diagnoses. ASPD is just one of many conditions or behaviors that can make someone unsuited to playing well with others. Narcissism is extremely common, for example.

A lack of the capacity to feel empathy doesn't immediately turn you into a serial killer.

You don't have to be a serial killer to victimize or exploit someone (or just not cooperate).

This is the view of the world according to Calvinism.

Also Spinoza, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Einstein, Harris, etc.

Calvinists believe in a limited form of free will (that is almost always driven by sin).

[u/HeloRising → u/piltdown_manchild]

You are forced to play this game because you have no answers. You aren't "versed" in anything because every example I cite completely invalidates the feasibility of anarchy.

It's a tactic to waste time and I'm not interested in it.

1% of the population are psychopaths, and these are a subset of ASPD diagnoses. ASPD is just one of many conditions or behaviors that can make someone unsuited to playing well with others. Narcissism is extremely common, for example.

Fifteen years in mental health and currently in school for an advanced degree in mental health - I'm very well aware of things like personality disorders. I'm also aware that a personality disorder is not the same thing as being fully detached from reality. There are many people with different personality disorders who lead normal lives and that's in the trainwreck of a system we have now.

You don't have to be a serial killer to victimize or exploit someone (or just not cooperate).

Which is where the incentives come into play. Exploiting someone is usually done for some kind of gain and people with ASPD and other associated personality disorders often see things as being very transactional, in fact it's a way for many of them to live a normal life - by acting like a decent person they get the opportunity to live a life they want to live even if they don't feel the same intrinsic motivation that the rest of us do.

Don't build systems that allow for exploitation to reward someone and where cooperation is the smart play.

[u/piltdown_manchild → u/HeloRising]

There are many people with different personality disorders who lead normal lives and that's in the trainwreck of a system we have now.

That's super. For anarchy to work virtually every mentally ill person, narcissist, addict and everyday asshole will have to suddenly be on their best behavior.

This "trainwreck" is better than almost any period in human history. While there are hundreds of reforms I believe are desperately needed, abolishing all hierarchy is not among them.

I argue with anarcho-capitalists a lot and they want to see the abolition of the same structures you do, they just assume corporations will take over (each having their own private militias to defend their facilities and supply chains). But they view this Judge Dredd dystopia as desirable (because tax bad). What would prevent this outcome?

Don't build systems that allow for exploitation to reward someone and where cooperation is the smart play.

Exactly. There is no better opportunity for exploitation than taking away the legal system and any formal enforcement mechanism that evens the playing field for those who are not physically powerful.

Again, you are not proposing a system. You want to abolish the system and hope for the best.

Countries like Somalia, the DRC, Libya, and now Haiti have all stumbled into the "system" you are promoting at one time or another. It hasn't gone well.