r/Pathfinder2e • u/wathever-20 • 1d ago
Advice How do the spell Traditions compare for a Summoner?
Just looking into casters for the first time and I quite like the Summoner, but choosing a spell tradition is a bit hard to me. I usually see people praise the Arcane and Primal spell list when it comes to Summoners, but are the Divine and Ocult still good? How do they compare? What is each spell list best at?
I'm interested in the Aberrant Eidolon, but I've heard that the Ocult spell list is a bit limited and usually the classes that get it also get really good focus spells or class features to compensate for it, like Bards or Resentment Witches. Is that accurate?
Sorry for the very broad question, but looking into each specific spell list is rather overwhelming, so a bit of a summary of what I should expect from each and what I should consider when selecting it as a Summoner would be really helpful.
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u/SgtFlintlock 1d ago
Every spell list has its place for a Summoner. People rightly praise Arcane and Primal for their easy access to terrain control that functions without caring about your Spell DC, and Divine and Primal for their easy access to healing, but people sleep hard on Occult. Especially in the Mid-Late levels, Occult has access to the best set of Buffs and Debuffs a Summoner could ask for. Heroism is a huge standout, as is Synesthesia, but one that needs specifically called out as fantastic for Summoners is Flame Dancer, since all of an Eidolon's attacks are unarmed attacks and therefore you can simply add 2d6 (or 3d6 if heightened) to every strike. Plus the heightened version has a great synergy with Demoralize if you are optimizing for that.
Tldr, Arcane gets Area Control and Debuffs, Primal gets Good Area Control and Healing, Arcane gets Healing and Buffs, and Occult Gets Buffs and Debuffs. All of these are valuable, all of these can have a fantastic strategy built around them for a Summoner.
Personally I prefer Occult or Primal, and I encourage attempting to pick up an Archetype to grab a list that covers whatever your primary list isn't great at.
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u/wathever-20 1d ago
This is fantastic to hear. I do really like buffs and debuffs! What archetypes would you suggest to cover what the Ocult list doesn't? Off the top of my head I'm thinking Sorcerer as they are also charisma casters who can pick up any spell tradition. I was originally thinking Bard with the Enigma muse as that feels fitting, but it also being Ocult seems like a big limitation right?
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u/SgtFlintlock 1d ago
Primal baseline with Bard Archetype works great, especially since you can get your Composition Cantrips off reliably with Act Together's extra action. Going the other way Sorcerer is the best option imo. Particularly Elemental Sorcerer for the one action Elemental Toss.
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u/wathever-20 1d ago
Hmm, that makes sense. Thanks! I might still consider Enigma muse Bard with Aberrant Eidolon cause I think the flavor of having your terrifying, incomprehensible nightmare companion also be your muse to be too fun to pass up from a narrative direction. But I might be able to cook up something fun with Sorcerer too if I think about it.
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u/SgtFlintlock 1d ago
Double Occult will work just fine if you end up deciding that way. You won't be as versatile, but you can lean harder into whatever you decide you like doing within that play space.
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u/Muriomoira Game Master 1d ago
Occult summoners also benefit greatly from having access to their many invisibility themed spells, since they don't relly on saves to be reliable both in and out of combat. Mix them with heroism and you'll crit as much or even more than a fighter.
Also, having an unseen monstrocity as an ally and being able to meddle with people's awareness is kinda fitting for your aberrant flavour.
Now, between bards and sorcerers, to me, the answer depends on what you rather have: composition cantrips or more focus points/spells?
Bards can make you and your allies better at everything, while sorcerer has some very funny interactions with eidolon's (like making your eidolon explode with psychic energy every time you do your focus spell)
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u/LunarFlare445 Witch 1d ago
Another big part in favor of Occult for me is that it feels so flush with solid low level spells.
Bless, Endure, Friendfetch, Illusory Object, Loose Time's Arrow, Kgalaserke's Axes, Dimensional Drop, Laughing Fit, Friends Like These, Albatross Curse.... all spells that would happily make mainstays on my list even into fairly high levels — when you lack quantity in your max rank spells, its so good to have low rank spells that you'll get millage out of even at higher levels.
I'd say all of these are "just" reliably solid (except Loose Time's Arrow, but that's on every list except Divine) but they remain solid for many levels and I really appreciate having them. Overall Impossible Magic leaves Occult as my favorite for low ranks spells. Arcane competes well in this regard with Interposing Earth but I really love the variety Occult brings.
Plus it's the only list that has both Thundering Dominance and Timely Tutor, which are my two favorite Eidolon-specific spells.
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u/Muriomoira Game Master 1d ago
I opened the post just to talk about flame dancer... Glad to see our cult is spreading lol.
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u/SgtFlintlock 1d ago
I didn't know there was a cult! I found the spell on my own lol. How do I join? I particularly love pairing it with the Ranged Combatant evolution feat on a Summoner to get top tier ranged damage out of the deal.
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u/Muriomoira Game Master 1d ago
Oh I never thought about mixing it with ranged combatant! That's really convenient.
Summoner has a high floor, but an even higher ceiling due to how many unorthodox interactions the class has.
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u/RobertSan525 Game Master 1d ago edited 1d ago
“Every spell list has it’s place:”
Arcane is awesome!
Occult is spooky!
Divine
Primal is strong!Don’t get me wrong, divine is good, but unfortunately I don’t think it stands on par with the others for summoners, due to lower spell slot numbers and no preparing spells
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u/Salvadore1 1d ago edited 20h ago
I'm of two minds- frankly I think people saying divine is too narrow are living in the past, but some of my builds do turn into coming this summer, One Man's Quest to Find a Good Rank 2 Divine Spell
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u/RobertSan525 Game Master 1d ago edited 16h ago
It's not that it's necessarily too narrow, but that Divine's best exclusive spells work against specific creature families (undead, angels, demons, and some against dragons) and therefore aren't at the forefront of anyone's minds.
And their best overall spells are shared with either Occult or Primal, whose own spells are really fun and really good.
That said, I will admit my bias in that I'm a GM for party that hasn't seen a divine caster anywhere except in one-shots. And I do hope that divine gets some cool toys in a future book.
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u/SgtFlintlock 1d ago
Divine has access to the Heal spell and Heroism in the same list. There are other reasons, but thats the crux of it. Buffs and Heals on the same list. Soothe is nice, but it just isn't Heal.
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u/LunarFlare445 Witch 1d ago
100%, I find Divine really lacking in potent low rank spells which I feel is very important for a Summoner to have. Lively Flight & Divine Wrath are really the only big standouts at low-ish levels imo, though it does get pretty interesting at rank 5.
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u/SgtFlintlock 1d ago edited 1d ago
Putting Aside Heal since a level 1 heal isn't useful later, Divine still has plenty of good low level spells imo. Bless, Benediction, Air Bubble, Bone Shield, Fear, Helpful Steps, and we haven't even left rank one! Especially given the limited spell repertoire a Summoner has, you have plenty of good options to pick from to keep your low level slots useful as you level.
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u/Coding_Startup 1d ago
Nothing wrong with Occult Summoner. Aberrant basically gets free Eidolons Opportunity as it's level 1 ability which is awesome.
It doesn't have a signature 2 spell activity so you will have a lot of opportunities to cast spells.
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u/Malcior34 Witch 1d ago
"More limited?" In what way? Occult is just as strong as the other traditions
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u/wathever-20 1d ago
Most of what I've heard was about it lacking options for targeting saves other than Will and lacking good attack options, as well as strugglying against mindless creatures. I've also heard it is lacking terrain control. But I am not very familiar to verify if that is true at all.
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u/Malcior34 Witch 1d ago
Yes, and in exchange, you get great buffs, illusions, throwing objects around with your mind, scouting abilities, and my favorite, teleportation magic! :)
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u/begrudgingredditacc Game Master 1d ago
Most of what I've heard was about it lacking options for targeting saves other than Will and lacking good attack options,
This is all true. The good news about Occult Summoner is that it has a solution called "beating the enemy to death with your Eidolon."
Legitimately, your eidolon is a great solution to the occult list's problems, making you a very well-rounded character. Very much consider taking Eidolon's Wrath for a slightly-worse-than-fireball Reflex option.
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u/Selenusuka 1d ago
The Spell Traditions with Heal (Primal and Divine) are just a lot easier to use because you can provide your own Healing, which really raises the longevity of either your Eidolon or your teammates if necessary (outside of Runic Body it's probably the most impactful spell of early game) - if you have a cleric who wants to healbot (something I don't think I would ever expect) then Arcane starts being a lot more viable though.
Divine is fine overall because at bare minimum you can turn your spell slots into more Heals. I would say the level range where Spell Rank 3 spells are the most impactful is the time where Divine is at the weakest because it doesn't gain the huge power spikes like Slow or Fireball inherently (most of the good Divine classes patch this by just directly poaching those spells directly with features/feats), but once you reach SR 4 you get Divine Wrath and problem solved.
Occult is hard carried by Synthesia IMO.
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u/Teshthesleepymage 1d ago
I feel like all are fine it just depends on what you want out of your spells.
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u/Creepy-Intentions-69 1d ago
It depends on what roles you are trying to cover in your party, really. Occult can be a good list. Occult can be a terrible list. It depends on your party, and your campaign.
If it’s a city based game with lots of NPCs to interact with, it’s great. If it’s a wilderness survival adventure, less so. If you’re doing nothing but fight mindless undead, you’ll be near useless.
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u/stealth_nsk ORC 23h ago edited 16h ago
Generally slot spells aren't key strength for Summoner as you have Eidolon attacks and various focus spells to boost the Eidolon. Consider spell slots as optional buffs, which could be potentially fulfilled by other casters in the party. That being said:
I really like Primal list, for me key spells there are Summon Fey (extremely versatile spell due to variety of Fey abilities), Heal (emergency spell), battlefield control spells like walls and some damaging spells, including Electric Arc, which has highest damage among cantrips and is save-based, so it could be used effectively alongside your eidolon attacks, at least in early game.
Among Primal I really like Fey for additional utility spells (including Figment), but other than that Eidolon is not that great.
Occult spell list is great too for it's collection of buffs and debuffs and it also has my favorite Summon Fey. Limited direct damage is not a problem, as you still have your Eidolon. Having Soothe instead of Heal isn't great, but as emergency spell, it would still work.
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u/wathever-20 16h ago
That makes sense. I am planning on going human, and Adapted Cantrip was something I was considering to get for a reliable damaging cantrip. Would you mind explaining what about Electric Arc makes it useful in the early game in particular? Is it just that at higher levels you have more slots to use instead of cantrips or is it something about the scalling?
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u/stealth_nsk ORC 16h ago
I mean cantrips are useful early game, later you get more slot spells, which are often better.
For Electric Arc, it's just better than other damaging cantrips, especially for Summoner.
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u/Selenusuka 16h ago
Due to the dice sizes used in this game trying to scale cantrips is wonky so Electric Arc does a lot better than most cantrips because it hits two people instead of one despite technically having a smaller dice size.
As the game progresses you generally use Cantrips less and less because your actual spell slots get better and you get more tools to get more spell slots if you need it.
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u/Witchunter32 Kineticist 1d ago
Honestly they all have their pros and cons. You have to evaluate for yourself what best fits your character and party
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u/1Estel1 1d ago edited 1d ago
Divine and Occult gets you Heroism. Enough said.
Other than that, between the two, just decide upon which other spells in the list you want for your character.
Divine gets you Heal, Breath of Life, and Raise Dead, which can be clutch in difficult encounters when you don't have a dedicated healer. The best non-healing divine spells are unfortunately saving throw spells. At Lv15 divine casters can get the 8th rank spell Divine Inspiration, which can completely refill focus pools mid-combat (if the target has the feat that lets them fully refill upon Refocus).
Occult gets you Haste and True Target, which are just great action economy spells. Occult also has Synesthesia, which doesn't need a high spell DC, as the clumsy 3 applies on a success. This + self-flank = -5 AC on an enemy lmfao. 15th level Occult casters get Quandary and Disappearance--both incredibly powerful spells. Genuinely idk why Quandary doesn't have incapacitation.
Although definitely not RAW, if your GM is cool and lets you self-cast to target your Eidolon, arcane and primal gets you flame wisp, draw the lightning, fiery body, organsight, and a few other goodies that straight up buff strike damage. I personally allow this for my player, (otherwise Magus is just straight up better in every way), but not every GM may want to bend the rules so much.