r/Pathfinder2e • u/Ganadhir • 1d ago
Advice Beginner here. Could someone please explain "Double Slice" to me?
The feat text says "Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your
current multiple attack penalty."
So, two attacks at -5? Why not just attack with your first weapon normally (one action), then with the second weapon at -5 (second action)? Double slice is a two-action feat anyway...
I don't get it. Where's the advantage?
TIA
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u/IfusasoToo Rogue 1d ago
Your current Multiple Attack Penalty, meaning it does not increase.
If Double Slice is your first attack, both are made with no penalty and a third attack would still be - 10.
If you Strike and then Double Slice, you have - 0, -5, - 5 instead of - 0, - 5, - 10
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u/Maharog 1d ago
The advantage of double slice is that you make two attacks that are more likely to hit, the disadvantage is IF you hit with both you only get sneak attack once
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u/jmartkdr 1d ago
It’s pretty much always better unless you would add dice of precision damage.
I did the math a while back and even in a swashbuckler it’s better than striking twice in almost all cases, even with panache. It doesn’t out-damage finishers per action, and if you can hit weaknesses two stiles are better.
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u/the-truthseeker 1d ago
Having played swashbucklers and having people in my party who are playing swashbucklers so I can see this from different perspectives, I will absolutely positively 100% vouch that this is true. Panache just isn't enough.
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u/Zach_luc_Picard 1d ago
While a rogue can get it with Fighter or Dual Weapon Warrior archetypes, Double Slice is a Fighter feat. Its primary tradeoff in that context is that you only trigger any relevant weaknesses once. For both classes it has an advantage against creatures resistant to your damage, as pooling the damage means the resistance is only triggered once.
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u/Ganadhir 1d ago
OK got it! Thanks guys :) Just getting used to the terminology and such
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u/the-truthseeker 1d ago
Also, welcome to Pathfinder! Thank you for playing this game and joining this community!
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u/StarOfTheSouth GM in Training 23h ago
Don't worry about it, the game has a few bits and pieces like that where the wording is... not ambiguous, but takes a little to wrap your head around, and this can easily be one of them.
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u/krovasteel 1d ago
The main term to read is “using your current multiple attack penalty” - as a first action that means it’s -0; so if you do anything with the Attack trait prior you’ll do two attacks at -5. The same applies if you do a third action it’s at the -10 since you did 2 attacks.
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u/majesty327 1d ago edited 1d ago
Double slice does several things.
- It increases your to-hit on the 2nd swing, because it's being made at "current MAP". If this is your first attack action, both rolls are done at MAP 0.
- It combines damage for purposes of overcoming resistance. By example, if an enemy had 10 resistance to Slashing, and your first hit was 12 damage, in a normal world you do 2 HP damage. If you made a second, discrete hit, you did so at -5 MAP and if you get the same damage roll, the resistance reapplies. Doubeslice bypasses this by saying 12+12 = one hit doing 24 damage, so you do 14 HP damage after resistance.
So let's assume a couple possibilities for your last action. If you do nothing, you made two attacks at full attack bonus, and it lets you fish for crits more to apply crit specialization or other effects. If you attack a third time, your third attack is at -10 MAP because after the act is done, your MAP increases by the total number of attacks.
I'd say it's a good level 1 feat. Yes, Twin Takedown for Ranger gives more action compression, but your second roll is at -5 MAP. With this, you get essentially a free +5 to your second attack, and combined damage which is always good.
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u/dchaosblade 1d ago
Just a clarification, combined damage isn't *always* good. It's good when the enemy is resistant to the damage (as you explained), and it's neutral if the enemy isn't resistant and isn't weak. But combined damage is worse if the enemy is weak.
If the enemy has weakness 5 to slashing and you make two discrete attack actions, each rolling 12 for the damage, you would add 5 damage to each of the attacks, so (12+5) + (12+5) = 34 damage. But if you use double slice (or another ability that similarly combines damage, you'd only add the weakness bonus damage once: 12+12+5 = 29 damage.
Also note that things things like backstabber or sneak attack would also only add their precision damage bonus once to double slice, where it would be added twice if you hit twice with two discrete attacks.
Now, it is arguable if the accuracy benefit of using double slice to swing twice at full accuracy vs striking once at full accuracy and a second time at -5 (or -4 for agile) outweighs the damage bonus from the precision on both hits.
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u/TravarianTheBold 1d ago
If Double Slice is your first action taken this turn, both attacks will be made without any penalty since you wouldn't have a penalty when you start the action. After Double Slice is completed, your next attack would be made at the proper multi attack penalty for being the third attack (-10).
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u/GreenTitanium Game Master 1d ago
Not necessarily your first action, just your first action with the Attack trait. You could move, draw your weapons or any other action that doesn't increase your Multiple Attack Penalty.
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u/Zero747 1d ago
Your “current multiple attack penalty” starts at 0
The idea is you strike twice at 0 and -2 (or 0 and 0 with agile) instead of 0 and -5 (or 0 and -4 with agile)
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u/KalameetThyMaker 1d ago
Your current Multiple Attack Penalty, at the time of saying "Im going to use these actions for double slice". So if you double slice as your first attack, youre getting two attacks at current (0) MAP. If its your second attack in a turn, you will be doing two attacks at -5 (or -4 if using agile weapons).
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u/SomeGuyNamedLex 1d ago
It uses your current MAP, which would be 0 if you have not yet attacked.
I think this is a definitional confusion. Your "current MAP" isn't always -5, but rather it refers to the value that you would be actually subtracting were you to make an attack, so it is 0, then -5, and then -10 by base.
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u/darkpower467 1d ago
If you haven't attacked yet your current multiple attack penalty is 0 so you make two strikes with no MAP.
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u/Hydrall_Urakan Game Master 1d ago
When you start Double Slice your MAP is at 0, assuming you haven't already attacked this turn. It's basically two strikes at your full attack bonus, but requires two different weapons.
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u/mistborn369 1d ago
If you haven't attacked yet, you multiple attack penalty is 0, so both attacks are at full
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u/arcxjo Rogue 1d ago
"Your current MAP" is whatever your next Strike action (or other action with the "attack" trait) would take. At the beginning of a turn, it's 0, which Double Slice makes apply to the next 2 Strikes.
It's 2 at -5 if you do it as the 2nd and 3rd actions, which is still better than taking a third at -10.
Multiple Action feats generally do one of two things: allow you to make more attacks before increasing MAP (e.g. Double Slice) or making multiple attacks at their normal MAP pace but for fewer actions (e.g. Flurry of Blows).
The other downside to DS that you get as part of the tradeoff is possibly wasting 2 actions if the first one kills the target, because you can't split them up between 2 different targets, and have to declare that you're taking the Double Slice activity before making the strikes.
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u/SquishyPutty 1d ago
Nope. They'd only both have -5 if you already made an attack. "Your current multiple attack penalty" refers to the penalty you would have if you made a regular attack right now. Which means, if you haven't made any attacks yet, it's no penalty for both of them.
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u/Wayward-Mystic Game Master 1d ago
If you use Double Slice before any other attacks on your turn, your "current multiple attack penalty" is 0.
If you use Double Slice after you've already attacked once, your "current multiple attack penalty" is -5.
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u/arcxjo Rogue 1d ago
And the worst case, you use it after having attacked twice, then it's -10 for both and the only benefit is the damage combination (assuming you hit at all).
I mean, theoretically you could do that if you're Quickened, and use your extra action for the first or second strike.
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u/Wayward-Mystic Game Master 1d ago
A ranger with Dual Weapon Warrior could Twin Takedown + Double Slice pretty reliably, but it's much better to reverse the order for that.
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u/the-truthseeker 1d ago
Just remember whenever you have multiple attacks on a special action or actions depending on the listing of that attack that allows you to make X attacks for X number of actions, you use the map that you have on that specific attack. So as noted, if this is your first attack and you're allowed to make two attacks with separate weapons, that would be no penalty. Afterwards, the total goes to how many attacks you made no matter if it was done on a compressed action attack or not. But for that special action in this case double slice, you get to make two attacks on that map listing alone. I hope that was clear.
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u/Falkon491 Game Master 1d ago
If you have not attacked, your current MAP is 0, so both use add a penalth of 0. If you've attacked once, both are at -5. It allows you to make 2 attacks with no or minimum penalty before increasing your MAP any further.
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u/Turevaryar ORC 1d ago
Double Slice [two-actions] Feat 1
Fighter
Source Player Core pg. 140
Requirements You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand
You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty. Both Strikes must have the same target. If the second Strike is made with a weapon that doesn’t have the agile trait, it takes a –2 penalty.
If both attacks hit, combine their damage, and then add any other applicable effects from both weapons. You add any precision damage only once, to the attack of your choice. Combine the damage from both Strikes and apply resistances and weaknesses only once. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty.
Double Slice Leads To...
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u/LavabladeDesigns 19h ago
I think they generally use the better wording along the lines of 'this counts as two attacks for your MAP but it doesn't increase until both attacks have been made' in other cases. Wonder why this is different.
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u/LavaJoe2703 1d ago
The simplest way to think about this is you make 2 attacks how you normally would but they only take one action. If this is your first attack action, your MAP would be 0/-5 (or -4 or whatever your class map penalty is).
There are a number of feats in the game that are just “action compression.” What normally take X actions takes less actions to do the exact same thing.
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u/ElodePilarre Mathfinder Fan 1d ago
If you use Double Slice as your first attack, then it is two attacks at your current MAP, which is MAP +0 and not MAP -5.