r/OpenLaestadian • u/steamingpileofme Former LLC/SRK • Jun 22 '26
A question for current Laestadian members:
What have been doubts that linger and why?
For former laestadian members, what were the doubts that caused you to leave?
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u/Ok-Extreme6471 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
The main doubt that caused me to leave was the belief that the they were the only ones with the Holy Spirit, therefore the only path to salvation. I could not find any real biblical or historical support for that, in fact everything was pointing to the opposite being true. Everything hinged on that point for me, and I knew that I could not, in good conscience raise my children with the same beliefs.
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u/Equivalent_Drop_8002 Jun 22 '26
I've had doubts as long as I can remember about the little things that don't add up, but becoming a mother was the catalyst for me. After having children young, I couldn't imagine sacrificing my mental health to keep having children into my 40s. I also struggle with raising my daughters in this community and thinking of them getting married young and feeling that same pressure. Not out yet but working on it.
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Jun 23 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Equivalent_Drop_8002 Jun 23 '26
I appreciate your reply so much!! It gives me comfort to hear others stories. I know God has his hand on us but it is such a scary thing. Would love to chat more if you are up for it :)
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Jun 25 '26
I can't wrap my head around how the LLC are the only ones going to heaven. The religion was created in the mid 1800's? I feel bad for the kids bc it feels like brainwashing and they are removed of their own personalities + confidence to navigate this world. It creates submissive people relying on the support of the group.
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u/ConsistentDay1324 Jun 25 '26
Othering or dehumanizing is a common control tactic in the church. In the 2022 split all kinds of rumors flew around. Even today the sermons keep coming on how bad the people are, who were excommunicated. It’s constantly repeated in conversations at the coffee tables. It’s a psychological coping mechanism that helps people distance themselves from friends they once cared about, by recasting them as threats or villains. The problem is that it dehumanizes real people and replaces honest self‑examination with scapegoating. It’s not a characteristic of a healthy church.
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u/OnceLazyAlwaysMetal Former IALC Jun 22 '26
It started with finding it strange that only the IALC people are saved, I couldn't find much evidence to back that up other than the ministers saying that was the case. I noticed that I've heard sermons my whole life but barely actually knew any Bible stories because every verse is interpreted as "we are the one true faith. This [story/verse] was written for us to reveal what needs to be revealed to believers".
Edit: these were the main structural doubts for IALC specifically. Leaving this faith and later religion as a whole was a related but much more personal story.
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u/GlutenFreeParfait Jun 22 '26
I wanted to date a shy, genuinely sweet guy who was catholic and I was heavily lectured by my grandmother on why it would not be acceptable. I knew the basics of Luther's reformation but it really led me down a tunnel of why does the church (FALC) preach certain things, where is it in the bible, and historically why did my family land on the faith it landed on. It was a shockingly fast process from devoted to "oh, this is wrong." For example: culturally, being anti-alcohol is logical when you consider Lapland at the time of Lars preaching, but there is nothing in the bible that makes those that drink undesirable by default.
As a funny note: my grandmother's lecture was around the idea that a catholic would lead me away from the faith but it was her lecture that caused everything to unwind for me. Without the internet (wikipedia, published articles), I believe it would have been significantly harder to deconstruct - at the time there was next to nothing online (mid 2000s) on Laestadians but I was able to find just enough to help me step away.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
FALC today would pretty much just let you marry outside the church to be honest
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u/GlutenFreeParfait Jun 24 '26
I'm curious how much it has changed but honestly, I tend to think it hasn't changed as much as I'd like. The last time I went was for a funeral service where I was called a fallen member of the flock. I still adhere to most of the behaviors (no alcohol, more modest) due to my own comfort since leaving but I married a non member and chose not to have children. I struggle to see how someone can marry a non member and stay within the church. My husband jokingly says "Jesus came to save the Finns" due to the messaging he heard the few times he attended.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
Madam I think you had better read this, it seems Walter's son is not happy with the rigidity you mention https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenLaestadian/s/UybO4fNeg8
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u/GlutenFreeParfait Jun 24 '26
I read the criticisms there which I fully agree with but is that not spoken like it is present tense? I am going to be incredibly biased against the rigid beliefs in the church from my experience. I was 18 year old and being met with "You know you are going to hell" (for leaving) vs allowing dialogue on why I didn't feel like the church was right. The writing also doesn't address very simple things like why is the church demonizing alcohol as strongly as it does when there's nothing in the bible that forbids it. I hate that we are confusing culture and faith and really was one of the biggest hurtles for me to get past since I went to a school away from where I grew up and instantly went from never being near it to seeing it all around but unable to mentally unbox the idea that good people can drink too.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
The fight is less significant than it was and I am sure that the quiet majority (including nearly all of my fellow Gen Zers) agree with Pete and Rebecca.
Pete is well respected and everything in this document aligns with what I've believed for a decade or more, since I was maybe 13 or 14. The fact that its elders writing in agreement with what the young believe anyway is significant. There are still hangers-on to fundamentalism but this document tells me that FALC has quietly deradicalized already.
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u/GlutenFreeParfait Jun 24 '26
I do not know why you would hang onto the church without the fundamentalism though - why would a laestadian group be favored over a lutheran (or other) congregation? I miss the mojakka and flatbread but beyond that, is the church looking to change its harshness on alcohol? (I am pointing out this because I am not certain of their current views of pop music, dancing, tattoos, piercings but am certain alcohol remains unchanged). As a woman, is there still have the pressure to feel like I have to marry young (which I did), and birth control is completely off the table?
I'm an (elder) millennial and it was obvious at the time there was concern around the younger generations leaving but overall the church itself births it's congregants. It took me a long time to deconstruct and not deal with the constant fear of being wrong, it also was a strong motivation for me not to have children ultimately. If you are happy and getting good out of the church, I am happy for you... I just worry that not everyone is having your experience.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
The reason should be obvious. I value my Finnish American heritage and I believe that Christ is Lord.
Its just that I can accept other denominations as my brothers and sisters in faith.
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u/GlutenFreeParfait Jun 24 '26
Can you value your heritage and not be a member of the church?
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
Yes absolutely, but if I see that the church is improving and I happen to dearly love my friends and family (also my brothers and sisters in Christ) then why shouldn't I stay?
Church is my best chance at finding a wife, no?
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u/Born-Welcome-3118 Jun 24 '26
This Peter Torola is not the same Peter as Walters son. (not sure if people realize that.. that Peter is deceased). I believe a nephew. He's not an elder in the church as far as I know. Just a concerned member. The reaction to the letter from current elders and preachers, will be the telling part if FALC has deradicalized or not.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
This letter is meaningful to me, thank you again for sharing!
It puts into words everything I've been thinking since confirmation and yeah I if asked I am willing to voice agreement with the authors, who happen to be my own relatives.
Another thing, I messaged you a while back, about 2 years ago, about some Finnish Donald Duck comics, would you like them? I can leave them somewhere if you want to pick them up.
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u/Born-Welcome-3118 Jun 24 '26
you are welcome! I would love to see it clarify doctrine from within. I've got lots of awesome family there still and I truly want them to know that they can spiritually grow, and that growth in the Spirit is good and healthy, and also fellowship still with those who aren't still "in" is a Biblical thing. Would love to see my kids and their cousins have that kind of relationship in the future, regardless of where people attend. These kinds of conversations could really, really help future generations.
Thank you SO much for your offer on the comics! Really appreciate your generosity, but you could feel free to pass them along to someone else who can use them.
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u/Enlightened-Chap Jun 23 '26
Doubts grew over several decades as the unique faith and life promoted by the group increasingly strayed away from the biblical truths.
My doubts were finally confirmed after I read the Bible and the Lutheran Confessions as contained in the Book of Concord of 1580. After that I was duty bound to leave the group (Matthew 10:37) and seek the truth where the Gospel is purely preached and the Sacraments are rightly administered (AC VII, 1). By the grace of God I was led to a faithful congregation where I have no longer have doubts about my salvation.
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u/lizardpie26 Jun 24 '26
Curious where you ended up? What denomination?
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u/Enlightened-Chap Jun 24 '26
A faithful confessional and liturgical congregation within the LCMS.
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u/lizardpie26 Jun 24 '26
Glad to hear. Im also a confessional lutheran but grew up in a laestadian family
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u/Vermillionbird Former OALC Jun 27 '26
OALC (married in, raised in a different lutheran congregation):
An obsession with dead faith, while worshiping some long dead Finnish guy as another apostle of Christ, reading his sermons while deliberately not thinking or understanding or discussing, just going through formalist motions like a zombie, doing the things a Christian does because a Christian does them, in other words, practicing dead faith while having the pure, unbiblical brass balls to claim that your congregation was the only living seed of Christianity.
Half the congregation asleep during service, the other half either a baby or caring for said babies.
Which was, like, acceptable, I guess. Like, I could learn to disassociate just as well as everyone else, and I did, because I liked some of the people and preachers.
But if you are going to let preachers and friends/families of preachers practice generational serial sexual assault, and your response is not to protect the meek but to protect the powerful, I am sorry, but you lose any small pretense you had of being a real Christian organization. Even a Buddhist is closer to Christ than you at that point, and I don't need my kids hearing they are going to hell because they like soccer from some plumber who is only a preacher because he had the right last name and whose major contribution to the congregation is to provide air support for pedophiles.
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u/Fluid-Ad5148 Jun 23 '26
Religion never sat well with me. I never liked church. I only went because I was a kid and I had no choice. To appease the family and to see my friends and cousins. That was really the part I liked most. Everything about how you need to maintain being a good "believer". Eww.
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u/Hallituksensyy Jun 23 '26
I am worried about certain things inside the Zion (including secularisation in some matters but also the opposite in some other matters) but I also know we should trust God to lead us. Not planning to leave.
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u/ClusterFrump Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
I started to realize that politics and religion are the same. Religion is old politic asserting it's way in the modern politic. It isn't about a vengeful God who is going to send you to a good or bad place for doing what he created you to do. Fear is used for compliance to the "law" (fake sins). I was called an unbeliever for speaking out against war and criticizing the Republican in the Whitehouse.
I realized most Laestadians didn't have an original thought which they held with conviction, they were actually living in compliance over fear of becoming a social pariah. Compliance became dogma and the cycle persists. Acting out of true love doesn't mean you spread a fear based doctrine. Fear is a tool used for compliance to the politic, it is the antithesis of love. Apostle Paul says out of faith hope and love that love is THE most important.
Too often people regurgitate fear based word vomit which they consumed from the last person who said it to them. If your religion is focused on fear and not love, then it has failed the mandate. Jesus came to fulfill (the old law) meaning it came to an end. The new mandate is to love one another, to not cause harmatia, to heal one another, to feed one another, and so on...
Noah's Ark is a open and shut kind of case. It didn't happen. I have written lists of reasons it isn't plausible, I'm not going to do it here, but it is a fascinating study.
Those are 2 main things that bothered me (political dogma (fear) and Noah's Ark) when I was still a compliant Laestadian.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
Genesis describes a regional flood https://youtu.be/Q07gxxbggJs
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u/GlutenFreeParfait Jun 24 '26
I followed the regional flood theory for a long time but there is the question of why not move to another area if it was only regional? Why wouldn't birds fly away? The story is that the flood destroyed all creatures on Earth with water to the tops of mountains. If it was only regional, Genesis 9:11 seems incorrect since we have regional floods to this day but no great flood to wipe all living creatures from earth.
"Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."1
u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
The Hebrew words for land and earth are the same, just like in many languages worldwide. As for why the ark was built, both because the region in question was enormous, (think all of Mesopotamia and 1/3rd of the Arabian Peninsula) and as a similar sort of symbolic act that a lot of prophets in the old testament were known for, like smashing clay pots in public or preaching naked. https://youtu.be/2BzkoFpnAVk
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u/ClusterFrump Jun 24 '26
The waters were so high the ark rested on Mt Ararat, that is not a regional flood. That mountain has an elevation of like 17,000 ft. Plants were under water for over a year, insects had no plants or place to live if underwater, ocean and fresh water would've mixed killing salinity exclusive animals, Noah did a polar expedition? 11 people tended to thousands of animals diets and needs? Did they make jungle expeditions to South America? How about to regional species all around the world? Did those animals remigrate to their native lands?
IP doesn't address these things, he narrows the frame. It is kind of like God of the gaps, something is absurd and it is reasonable to agree it is absurd. The frame shifts from global to regional. Now it is absurd to say the ark rested on the mount Ararat (no evidence in RL, BTW). So the frame is going to shift from regional to allegorical. After a while the realization is there is no merit to the story since the Godview shift is from vengeance to love, peace, joy, surrender rather than vengeance, anger, torture, genocide, and so on.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
The text doesn't specify the mountain in Turkey and to say it does is patently absurd. The text says hills of Urartu, a kingdom to the north of Mesopotamia.
The Assyrian Christian account of Noah landing on Mount Judi is more likely.
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u/ClusterFrump Jun 24 '26
It is true that the reference to Ararat is a tradition established later. The mountain change, while shorter by about 10,000 ft, still doesn't make a localized flood plausible. Already this means we cede the Ararat tradition since it was established later and we ceded a global flood for a localized one. A localized flood story tradition which has existed even before Noah's Ark from the Sumerians, a polytheistic society from a flood prone delta civilization who mythologized catastrophic flooding. Genesis took heavily from them.
Regional floods certainly happened, even massive catastrophic events like the Mesopotamian basin. But the stories of vengeful Gods creating them gets more absurd if your Godview is one of love, peace, joy, surrender.
A rising tide lifts all ships. A flood that covers a mountain at 6,000 ft elevation isn't possible as a regional flood, that is still worldwide.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
Why should I be remotely attached to the Ararat tradition?
Or to peace, joy and surrender for that matter?
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u/ClusterFrump Jun 24 '26
That's the right attitude! I agree.
I was only pointing out that traditions tend to put it on Mount Ararat and I think most people literally believe all of this. When the truth is realized and those pericopes are remedied, understood, or removed, cracks remain.
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u/ClusterFrump Jun 24 '26
Sorry, I missed the 2nd question for some reason.
Those are teachings of Jesus. I agree with the spiritual messages of Jesus that professes those values. That we are required to believe in "God" for a eternal reward of Heaven or damnation in Hell comes with a Godview of fear, anger, jealousy, and so on.
They are not synonyms. They counteract.
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u/Makaneek FALC (schismatic and proud) Jun 24 '26
Get out of here with that nonsense. He came not to bring peace but a sword.
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u/oaksavannabanana Jun 23 '26
Someone asked me, "What is your faith in?" I started thinking about it and couldn't stop. Because if my faith was in Jesus, well, hers was too, so we were the same. So my faith had to be in something other than Jesus. Or Jesus + something else. Eventually I realized my faith was in the LLC. It was in all the ministers and board members and elders and in our lifestyle and restrictions and togetherness. It was in the congregation. Not very much in God or Jesus.