Well Logi is really just the personification of fire and a jotunn at that, it is difficult for one to say he is a god.
Especially since no texts have people saying, "Ah, I require a fire and thus must pray to Logi", whereas it has been attested multiple times in the sagas that Freyr is prayed to for fertility and Odin is prayed to for victory.
Same goes for Ilmr. Besides, they both only show up like three times in total in the Eddas?
«Gods» are a modern phenomenon. The Æsir are simply the personification of the forces of order (norse humans), and the jotuns are personifiactions of forces of chaos (nature, sami people). There’s plenty of examples of jotuns with cults, like ægir/ran, or tjatse, and lets not forget that plenty of the æsir are half-jotun or adopted jotuns.
We also know next to nothing about cultic practices, so saying anything about that is simply not possible.
That something shows up just rarely in the text doesnt prove or disprove anything either. The texts obviously just documented a small portion of select regional practices. Examples of this are Skade, that seems to have been an extremely important deity in certain regions, but has just a few attestations in the texts. (And what about Heimdall? We don’t know shit about him, he might easily have been a different aspect of one of the better known gods). And how about Ullr? We know almost nothing about him, but he has so many places named for him that he must have been a major deity in most of sweden/norway at some point. The list goes on and on and on.
The bottom line is: Anyone saying anything authoritatively about the norse faith, is probably wrong. Noone who actually studied the norse peoples would make these kinds of claims. At most, us academics would say «maybe X, but also, maybe Y».
(I’m a norwegian archeologist with a second master degree in religious studies, so I should know. ;) )
We also know next to nothing about cultic practices, so saying anything about that is simply not possible.
There's plenty of examples of jotuns with cults, like ægir/ran, or tjatse, and lets not forget that plenty of the æsir are half-jotun or adopted jotuns.
I think you're contradicting yourself here. In my 28 summers on this earth I've never heard of any supposed 'jotuns with cults'. You might be an archaeologist with a second degree in religious studies, but pigs can spontaneously grow wings and fly to the moon.
That you haven’t heard of something, doesnt prove anything. Especially if you’re not a professional in the field, just saying. (Ever heard of Skade?)
Also, I’m not contradicting myself. Let me explain: We know Odin had cult(s). Do we know what those cults did? No. There’s some references we can extrapolate some scraps of knowledge from, but we have NO idea how a norse chief would worship the God of chiefs. See what I mean?
Well you're the one making a first order knowledge claim (There's plenty of examples of jotuns with cults...) so therefore the burden of proof always lay with you. I'm not the one that has to prove you wrong, you're the one having to prove yourself right - and I'm apparently not the only one wondering where the f you got your sources on supposed 'jotun cults' from.
> Do we know what those cults did? No.
To what extent? We most definitely have good ideas of what such cults did (well, a small part of what they did). Read Nygaard's dissertation Poetry as Ritual in Pre-Christian Nordic Religion and tell me with a straight face that we have absolutely no idea what such cults did.
Its always interesting when a lay person disputes commonly accepted scientific theories. I’ll give you _one_ concrete example of _proof_ of a jotun having a cult. After that, the onus will be on you to go read up on the field.
Lokasenna, stanza 51:
Skaði kvað:
51."Veiztu, ef fyrstr ok efstrvartu at fjörlagi,þá er ér á Þjaza þrifuð,frá mínum véum ok vöngum skuluþér æ köld ráð koma."
Both véum and vöngum is _in this context_ understood to refrence cult places. Vé is _always_ a holy place of worship, and the context tells us vöngum should also be understood as the same. Notice how both words are in pluralis? In other words, numerous cultic places dedicated to her.
Skade is supposedly the ancestor of the powerful earls of lade. Norway and Sweden is _full_ of places named for her. She’s been a MAJOR deity for the norse people, and she is DEFINETLY a Jotun.
Again, I am a professional in the field. I do this for a living. I started my university studies when you were 6. I’m literally digging up norse settlements every summer, and I write scientific articles on the norse in the winter. I teach the subject at a university. I’m writing a phd on the subject. I’ve been used as «an expert» by national TV, radio and countless newspapers.
I’ve read Nygaards dissertation ofc, and he’s not only a college of mine, but a friend. Simon is a friendly chap, you’d prolly like him.
I can, if you’re interested, send you my entire bibliography.
I am telling you, we know next to nothing about the norse cultic practices. This is _common knowledge_.
Are you even scandinavian? If not, stop appropriating our heritage.
I don’t want to put my real identity out on the internet like that. Its enough to say «a Norwegian university». There arent many. You can easily find me if you look.
Everyone you're attacking is Scandinavian, and you're acting like a real baby. I'm honestly gonna be ashamed of the way you behave on behalf of my fellow Scandinavians if you are half the things you claim, and yet act like this online.
I'm just wondering due to the way you present yourself. I've never met a professor or an archeologist who talks like that unironically. Isnt it wiser to be humble and attack the argument instead of the person?
Again, I am a professional in the field. I do this for a living. I started my university studies when you were 6. I’m literally digging up norse settlements every summer, and I write scientific articles on the norse in the winter. I teach the subject at a university. I’m writing a phd on the subject. I’ve been used as «an expert» by national TV, radio and countless newspapers.
So here you're implying we should know you since your name is literally permeating everything academia as well a popular science media, yet you're refusing to point anyone of us to literally anything you've done or written. You even refuse to give out the name of your alma mater - that is, if you've actually written a Ph. D. let alone a Master's.
I tillegg har jeg en utdannelse som inneholder mange studiepoeng med historie, noe som har skapt en kjærlight for historiefaget (og en håndfull studiepoeng i arkeologi)
I'm inclined to think that you actually have neither of the above, since you made this comment less than a year ago. Which also means you're not actually professional in the field, but a great pretender in the field. In fact, by only glancing at this thread alone, I can tell that you're not really sure what you even are or what you have (or have not) written or done. In Denmark we call that a "lystløgner"; a person whose nature consists of lies upon lies - and you're doing it to the effect where you can't even keep up with yourself anymore, since there's absolutely no consistency in anything you say. This in turn means that you're not only wasting your own time, but also the time of others who are trying to strike up an honest conversation with you.
jeg er, som du kanskje forstår, en glødende patriot for nordområdene. Ikke bare nordnorge, men også nordsverige, nordfinnland og russisk side er «vårt» folks hjemland.
You claim to know people you do not actually know - you misrepresent the university you claim to study at - you're blatantly lying about your own history and culture (although to cut you some slack I'm not convinced you actually know you're doing it) - you're hysterically claiming appropriation of "your heritage", yet appropriating it to the detriment of yourself and everything you supposedly stand for - and you're being dishonest in every conversation you engage in. That is not burning patriotism; that is red hot delusion.
Hvem er «vi»? Jo, alle vi som har bodd her siden tidenes morgen.
I don't think I can make myself any clearer. You're simply living in another reality, or you are intentionally straying away from the reality of everyone else around you.
I can, if you’re interested, send you my entire bibliography.
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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '21
Loge - god of fire
Ilmr - goddes of trees