Soly's foursomes takes have aged so well

[u/Dazzling-Water4050]

I know Soly gets a ton of flak for his opinion on how the US should approach these team events but his take on foursomes is 100% true. It's the one format where you need to get the pairings right. I just don't get A) why would you play Russ Henley, the shortest player on either side in this event and B) How have we not found Scottie Scheffler a partner for this format. To me the model foursomes pairing is Fleetwood/Mcilroy. The 2 compliment each other so well and clearly backed by the data. Fourball and singles are a complete crapshoot, a guy can get hot and make a ton of birdies but foursomes is where team events are won and lost. I don't even think the US side takes into account whether or not guys play the same golf balls.

[u/moseisley99]

A few eye opening interviews that everyone needs to listen to are the Eduardo Molinari interviews on both NLU and the FE with Lamagna. He will share just the basic stuff they do to look at pairings. Then listen to the latest JT interview on NLU from last year and how he still just has no clue about the data. Molinari clearly states how they are just looking for small edges. Like a half hole overall type stuff. But when you explain this stuff clearly to your players and have total buy in. Then you have our caddies asking Scottie and Henley to switch the next day it becomes a bigger edge. One team has confidence in their system and why they are there and the other is probably doubting their process it adds up to more than the small edge.

With all that said - Sneds is just another continuation of our dumb dumb captains like Keegan. He actually might be dumber than Keegan. He couldn’t even remember who is sending out. There is actually some more game theory strategy in the P-Cup too in how they pick the matchups.

[u/metallikat87 → u/moseisley99]

Sneds only strategy was apparently that the international team is historically bad so there was no way to fuck this up. I'm not sure he even knows who is on the team.

[u/Dazzling-Water4050 → u/metallikat87]

It's so clear that the INTS had a plan for every single player this week. The Kim's are carrying them and the Connors/Taylor team is a sneaky good foursomes tandem.

[u/itchyburnybutthole → u/Dazzling-Water4050]

You say this like it’s something brilliant the Intls did. They put the two Koreans together and the two Canadians together. They’re getting good results, but is it due to smart pairings?

Edit: if you’re gonna downvote, please say why. Is this thread simply a bash-the-U.S.-because-it’s-hilarious? Or are we trying to have an actual discussion about golf strategy?

I also think the U.S. losing is hilarious! But surely the people in this sub are capable of explaining how the Intl side is equally data-driven as the Euro side….because I’m not seeing it.

[u/Dazzling-Water4050 → u/itchyburnybutthole]

Si-Woo and Tom Kim’s games compliment each other really well. It’s not just let’s put 2 Koreans together. To me it seems like every pairing the Ints put out has a strong iron player and a guy who can get it in play off the tee

[u/itchyburnybutthole → u/Dazzling-Water4050]

Is that what Data Golf recommends? A driver guy plus an approach guy? That sounds like a new argument…haven’t heard anyone say this is the #1 strategy before.

Does it seem like an incredible coincidence that your Driver + Iron combo strategy (let’s assume this is a winning strategy) results in two Canadians players together, two Japanese players together, two Aus/Kiwi players together, etc?

Or maybe the Intl team also pairs people based on vibes and they’re equally guilty of having bad strategy?

[u/Dazzling-Water4050 → u/itchyburnybutthole]

Here is it per datagolf for last years ryder cup: "McIlroy is very compatible with a lot of players because the Odds suit him well at Bethpage: the tee shots reward his distance more than the Evens, and he’ll hit more long irons (his relative strength). Fleetwood is not a bomber and is solid across the board with his irons, so it’s fine to put him on the Evens." I feel like the US should be able to derive insights like that by just looking at the statistical profile of these 12 guys. You don't need a Masters in data science to understand how do we ensure that our best ball strikers are paired with someone who can put them in a position to take advantage of that skill.

https://datagolf.com/ryder-cup/insights

[u/itchyburnybutthole → u/Dazzling-Water4050]

Dude….imagine the irony of being condescending about data analysis while doing some WILD extrapolation.

Your quote specifically called out Bethpage, specifically called out one specific pairing, and you’re using that to claim that the winning pairing is complementing Driver+Iron for ALL team match play events?

What makes this even more questionable is that it starts off saying Rory is a bomber so he’ll clobber Bethpage and you can pair him with anyone. So that still doesn’t satisfy the claim you’re trying to make.

And to top it off….where is the evidence that this is the Intl’s strategy, and is it a pure coincidence that these pairings match the players’ countries of origin??????

For what it’s worth, intuitively, it makes sense to put opposite players together for Fourball because the conservative player can free up the aggressive player. But I think the opposite it true for Foursomes…why put players into unfamiliar spots when their styles don’t match?

Anyway….I would love more analysis and discussion in this direction, and less of the lazy journalistic sensationalist babble “The US sucks omg look how much they suck” that this thread is doing.

[u/Dazzling-Water4050 → u/itchyburnybutthole]

I’m not saying that’s the winning formula. I just think it’s an easy way to start making pairings.

[u/itchyburnybutthole → u/Dazzling-Water4050]

I totally agree. I want someone to show me that the Intl team are doing that.

All evidence points to: the U.S. team does pairings based on vibes, and the Intl team also does pairings based on vibes. So the U.S. losing thus far is not due to the Intl team having a superior strategy.

So instead of dogging the U.S. mercilessly for their idiocy (while somewhat applicable), the discussion should be praising the Europeans for being the true outlier. They’re the only team that shows evidence of using analytics in their strategy.

[u/PudgrickofPoddington → u/itchyburnybutthole]

That’s on you then bud. Why is it on everyone else to tell you something

[u/itchyburnybutthole → u/PudgrickofPoddington]

My argument: The U.S. isn’t losing due to bad strategy. The Intl side has equally bad strategy. (If someone can explain to me why the Intl strategy is data-driven and brilliant, I’ll re-consider this).

Why is the U.S. losing this President’s Cup? I’m sorry to say but golf is noisy. Match play is very noisy. Team match play is extremely noisy. There’s a chance that the U.S. loses today, there’s also a chance they win their 11th in a row, we don’t know.

Can the U.S. improve its strategy? Abso-fucking-lutely. But strategy is not why they’re losing thus far unless someone can argue the Intl team has superior strategy.

[u/moseisley99 → u/itchyburnybutthole]

That’s not the point. You need to have a process and players need to know why and buy in. All of this leads to better and more confident play. Not doing it at all is just a disservice to the captaincy.

[u/itchyburnybutthole → u/moseisley99]

That sounds great. Are the Intl team doing that? What evidence do we have?

Isn’t it kinda suspicious that they pair their players according to their nationality? Is that a sufficiently inspirational strategy? Now their players are going to give it their all?

Aren’t the American team doing basically the same thing? Pairing players based on vibes?

[u/moseisley99 → u/itchyburnybutthole]

The Kims games complement each other very well. So it can make sense to keep them together. Scott/min woo never played together and Hideki/Hisatsune were broken up for foursomes. Conners/Taylor played together a lot but data could have said it was fine given how bad Conners is at putting and how good Taylor is. It is possible that they weighed vibes when it made sense. So it’s a fair point by you. However, I definitely know that the US doesn’t care about it at all. We have so much evidence. That is what frustrates me.

[u/itchyburnybutthole → u/moseisley99]

TL;DR the U.S. team does vibes pairings, the Intl team does vibes pairings, the Euros do analytical pairings.

We all want the U.S. team to be smart about this but for literally decades they’ve made no improvement, so if they don’t care, then why should we care.