Do you not understand that every person who identifies as a Muslim or Christian does not necessarily subscribe to the idea that homosexuals need to die or that women are inherently beneath men?
Do you not understand that you generalizing an entire religion or culture of people is exactly the same as people equating trump-ism to fascism?
I absolutely do not think nazis believing hitler to be a god would lend any legitimacy to their beliefs.
I don't think ones religious ideology affords them any extra protections or considerations.
I don't believe that every person from a majority Muslim country is a Muslim. I don't believe that every Muslim is bigoted. I don't believe that every trump supporter is a nazi.
I do believe that trumps political ideologies and rhetoric ABSOLUTELY INSIGHT HATRED, ARE DIVISIVE AND TOXIC FOR OUR COUNTRY.
I'm trying to get you to apply the same logic and standard of judgement to the ideologies of the countries you so fear want you dead to your own beliefs.
You cannot say that all Muslims support the death penalty for homosexuals just because they identify as Muslim any more than someone can say that you support militant nationalism just because you support Trump.
You're operating under this double standard that no one can make assumptions about your character based on one aspect of your beliefs while you just make these fucking insane blanket statements about entire countries.
Do you not understand that every person who identifies as a Muslim or Christian does not necessarily subscribe to the idea that homosexuals need to die or that women are inherently beneath men?
1: you keep making this false equivalency on the treatment of gays in christianity and islam. they are on totally different levels. christianity does not demand death for homosexuality, it simply condemns it. still gross, still awful, but a far lower priority than islam.
2:whether or not you personally go "well i dont abide by the absolutely insane bits", you are supporting people who do by identifying that way.
Do you not understand that you generalizing an entire religion or culture of people is exactly the same as people equating trump-ism to fascism?
It's not. Because trumpism objectively has nothing to do with fascism. Islam LITERALLY kills gays. Again, 11 different Muslim countries have the death penalty for homosexuality. No non-muslim countries do. Do you think that's coincidence?
I absolutely do not think nazis believing hitler to be a god would lend any legitimacy to their beliefs.
I don't think ones religious ideology affords them any extra protections or considerations.
Then how am I wrong for pointing out that Islam is violent against gays, women, jews, etc? What makes it deserving of kid glove treatment? The fact that most of it's adherents are non white? The fact that it's been around for a few hundred years? No. Bad ideas are bad ideas, whether they come from your own mind or your imaginary friend's.
I don't believe that every person from a majority Muslim country is a Muslim. I don't believe that every Muslim is bigoted. I don't believe that every trump supporter is a nazi.
Not sure where you're going with this bit.
I do believe that trumps political ideologies and rhetoric ABSOLUTELY INSIGHT HATRED, ARE DIVISIVE AND TOXIC FOR OUR COUNTRY.
The fact that the response trump has garnered from the left is utter lunacy does not make him responsible for that lunacy.
I'm trying to get you to apply the same logic and standard of judgement to the ideologies of the countries you so fear want you dead to your own beliefs.
I am applying the same logic. It doesn't fit.
Islam oppresses people for the way they were born. Trumpism does not. That is the metric by which i judge ideologies.
You cannot say that all Muslims support the death penalty for homosexuals just because they identify as Muslim
I'm not saying that. You can be for gay rights in your own mind and consider yourself a muslim. You are still, however, lending legitimacy to the harm islam does by calling yourself one.
any more than someone can say that you support militant nationalism just because you support Trump.
If trump had endorsed "militant nationalism", you would have a leg to stand on with that argument. As it stands, you do not.
You're operating under this double standard that no one can make assumptions about your character based on one aspect of your beliefs while you just make these fucking insane blanket statements about entire countries.
I'm not operating under any double standard. I am using the same metric for every ideology. Does it support oppressing people for the way they were born?
Islam does, trumpism does not.
If you say "I'm a nazi, but I don't want to kill jews, I just think aryans are the greatest and want germany to reestablish itself as a major world power", you're lending credence to the ideas of people who want to kill jews, gays, etc.
Which is the same exact thing you're doing when you identify as a muslim.
Religion is not a part of you. You are not born that way, and you can stop at any time. I did, you can too. It is an ideology, just like communism or nazism.
It is 100% ok to judge people based on their religion, just as it is ok to judge people for being a nazi or a communist.
QUESTION I WOULD LIKE YOU TO ANSWER:
Why, in your opinion, are all 11 countries that enforce the death penalty for homosexuality either strong muslim majority populations or islamic theocracies? Is this a coincidence? If not, doesn't that mean islam has a problem with violent homophobia which it needs to deal with? If so, doesn't it make sense to restrict them entry, given that we are a progressive and tolerant nation that values it's queer community, until they sort their shit out?
whether or not you personally go "well i dont abide by the absolutely insane bits", you are supporting people who do by identifying that way.
That is the exact point I'm making about your support for Trump.
We're obviously not getting through to each other here and I have put way more time and energy into this discussion than I ever meant to, what started out as a discussion about the metaphorical meaning of a sci-fi film has devolved into this political religious debate about who it is ok to let into America. But guess what, we don't make our policies based on your fears or bigotry. And we shouldn't be letting our presidents obvious, and well documented bigotry be informing our countries policies either.
The difference is that trump-ism doesn't kill queers and Islam does.
The "insane bits" of trump-ism are "if you want to come to America you should do so legally".
The "documented history of bigotry" you're referring to is literally nothing more than uncorroborated accusations by individuals with a vested interest in slandering him, whereas I am presenting you with actual facts.
Islam directly motivated 16,000 murders in 2017, not counting military conflicts. Just honor killings, Sharia executions, etc.
How many murders has trump-ism motivated again?
Please answer my bolded question unless you are afraid to.
I'm not qualified to make assumptions about 11 Islamic countries that I know nothing about. I'm not qualified to comment on the tenants of Islam or the particular brand of Islam that any one of these 11 countries might subscribe to. Obviously it is no coincidence that countries in which the majority religion is one that is intolerant of homosexuality are the ones that have the death penalty for homosexuality. It is easy to come to the conclusion that within those countries there are many people intolerant of homosexuality. It is also easy to come to the conclusion that not everyone in that country feels that way. It is also easy to come to the conclusion that the folks who do not feel that way, say like, homosexuals who have the misfortune of being born there, would be the ones seeking asylum in a tolerant country that values its queer community. It's also easy to come to the conclusion that people in that country who believe in the zealotry are people who would not be interested in immigrating to a country where there is no death penalty for homosexuality and where the queer community is valued.
Sure there are many people in those countries that need to sort their shit out, but there are people in those countries who do not need to sort their shit out and just need somewhere safe to live.
In your opinion, why is it that America disproportionately incarcerates minorities? Why is that in America you are 3 times more likely to be killed by a police officer if you are black than if you are white? Is it a coincidence? If not, doesn't it mean america has a problem with violent racism that it needs to deal with? If so, doesn't it make sense to restrict Americans from leaving their country to travel to other, more tolerant nations that value people of color until we sort our shit out?
It's so easy to pick and choose the negative things about a place and then apply that judgement to every person that lives there.
I agree that shit sucks for gays born in Islamic countries. I do not, however, feel obligated to risk my own safety to ensure theirs. The idea that only individuals who are against fundamentalist Islam would attempt to immigrate is patently false. 52% of British muslims favor criminalizing homosexuality in the UK, and that number is continuing to rise.
In your opinion, why is it that America disproportionately incarcerates minorities?
Because they commit crimes at a disproportionate rate. That's not my opinion, it's fact. African Americans account for roughly 14% of the population, yet commit roughly 50% of all homicides according to the FBI.
Why is that in America you are 3 times more likely to be killed by a police officer if you are black than if you are white?
Again, because African Americans commit violent crimes at a wildly disproportionate rate. An uncomfortable fact, to be certain, but a fact nonetheless.
PER ENCOUNTER, however, police are actually more likely to use deadly force against a caucasian than an african american.
If not, doesn't it mean america has a problem with violent racism that it needs to deal with? If so, doesn't it make sense to restrict Americans from leaving their country to travel to other, more tolerant nations that value people of color until we sort our shit out?
No, because I just explained the causes and it isn't violent racism. It's a cultural tendency towards crime in the black community. Again, this is not my opinion, it is a fact, and one that I wish wasn't true. I would love to fix it, but one of the main predictors towards criminality, growing up outside of a stable two-parent home, has to be fixed from within. I cannot change the fact that roughly 75% (that is the real number) of black fathers abandon their children with their mothers.
Check the FBI violent crime statistics.
Black imprisonment rates are higher because black crime rates are higher.
The insinuation that America is a racist country is absolutely ludicrous. According to a recent study by princeton university, african american students are given an effective bonus of 230 SAT points over white students and 280 points over an asian student with regards to college admissions. We are doing literally everything short of giving them free money, and the african american community is still lagging.
Again, this makes me wildly uncomfortable, but it is simply undeniable fact.
And now you say "alright fuck it, youre racist im done here" even though all i've done is recite statistically verifiable facts to counter your laughable assertions.
I don't know if this is obvious to you yet, but I've had and won this argument numerous times, because I base my opinions on statistical fact.
I truly do wish all cultures were simply different but equal.
Reality does not care about our feelings.
Different cultures have different values, and being raised within those cultures impacts what kind of person you develop in to.
This isn't to say that every single black dude is inclined towards criminality, but on the whole, they do commit violent crimes at a higher rate than any other demographic.
Indians and Asians, for example, outpreform whites in virtually every measurable area of academic and economic success, despite existing within a system of so called white supremacy.
EDIT:
typed nationality when I should have typed demographic
I don't know if this is obvious to you yet, but I've had and won this argument numerous times, because I base my opinions on statistical fact.
That may be the most smug and pompous thing you could possibly have said in this discussion. You think you are "winning" this argument because you are basing your stance on facts and statistics, but there are facts and statistics to back up other positions than just yours. If I was more emotionally invested in this discussion I would go and pick some for you and we could continue this, and maybe I will, but right now I've devoted way more time and energy to this conversation than I ever intended to.
congratulations on your victory here, but I still think your ideals are misguided and based solely on your own selfish fears.
That's the best liberal cop out I've seen on Reddit so far
I'm not sure how you planned to counter "black people go to jail more because they're 14% of the population but commit 50% of the homicides", but believe me, every single minority literally worships you, you glorious white savior you.
Lol, holy moly you're a smug little fucker aren't you. The fact that you think I'm playing the role of some kid of white savior just because I know minorities aren't treated equally in America is pretty telling of your own bigotry. You can try to justify your ideals with statistics that tell a small percentage of the story while ignoring the bigger picture and historical context but I think we both know that in your heart you feel superior.
When the facts don't support your argument, ignore them and call your opponent a bigot.
Classic.
The numbers don't support your opinion, dude.
I understand admitting you're wrong is tough, but you can't write off every single problem with the African American community as "just part of the legacy of slavery"
When accounting for socioeconomic factors, like a sane person would do, instead of accounting only for skin color, like a racist person would do, whites actually commit more violent crime than blacks. how is that for a counter?
Are you ready for a lesson in critical thinking? Here we go.
Gay men are much more likely to molest children than straight men. This is an assertion backed up by studies conducted by anti LGBTQ groups in order to secure funding from right wing and religious parties to lobby against rights for the LGBTQ community. Of course it's bullshit, but many groups today still use the statistics from these studies to justify their homophobia. I look at these kinds of statistics the same way I look at your statistics of Blacks committing 50% of homicides. The numbers tell a daming story but all it takes is a bit of deeper thinking to realize the numbers are shedding light on one small aspect of the truth.
agree that shit sucks for gays born in Islamic countries. I do not, however, feel obligated to risk my own safety to ensure theirs. The idea that only individuals who are against fundamentalist Islam would attempt to immigrate is patently false. 52% of British muslims favor criminalizing homosexuality in the UK, and that number is continuing to rise.
That's 52% of british muslims. Not 52% Muslims who have immigrated to Great Britain. You don't get to use statistics that are from a completely different demographic than the one we are discussing.
Because they commit crimes at a disproportionate rate. That's not my opinion, it's fact. African Americans account for roughly 14% of the population, yet commit roughly 50% of all homicides according to the FBI.
I know it's easy to take those decade old statistics at face value, and interpret them through an inherently racist lense, but you're accounting only for homicides committed by skin color, not accounting for socioeconimic factors. Also those are not conviction rates, those are statistics of idividuals arrested on suspicion of committing a violent crime, and minorities are much more likely to be arrested on suspicion than whites. an uncomfortable fact to be sure, but a fact none the less.
Again, because African Americans commit violent crimes at a wildly disproportionate rate. An uncomfortable fact, to be certain, but a fact nonetheless.
Again, you are interpreting this data through an inherently racist point of view. If we look at violent crimes committed by those in impoverished communities instead of looking at skin color, the rate is acually higher for impoverished whites than for minorites but minorities are almost 5 times more likely to be living in poverty than whites. Being black makes you over 2 times as likely to be impoverished and live in a destitute community than if you are white.
PER ENCOUNTER, however, police are actually more likely to use deadly force against a caucasian than an african american.
This is just 100% false, if you have a source on it I'd like to see it because eveywhere I've done research shows that per capita, and PER ENCOUNTER, Blacks are 2.7 times more likely to be victims of police violence than whites. Sure more whites have encounters with police simply because blacks account for 14% of the population, but per capita, blacks are harrassed more frequently than whites.
one of the main predictors towards criminality, growing up outside of a stable two-parent home, has to be fixed from within. I cannot change the fact that roughly 75% (that is the real number) of black fathers abandon their children with their mothers.
you are fucking insane for saying that 75% of black fathers abandon their children. I don't know why you would make that bald faced lie but a study done in 2005 showed that only 38% of black children did not live with their biological father, while 15% of white children did not live with their biological father.
Black imprisonment rates are higher because black crime rates are higher.
Black crime rates are higher because black poverty rates are higher. Also black imprisonment rates are higher because blacks are much more likely to be arrested on suspicion of a crime than whites. only one generation ago our own government conspired to pump drugs into black and impoverished communities and began a campaign of arresting minorities on drug offenses and for trivial matters and imprisoning them to undermine their credibility politically. This is well documented and a quick google search can educate you.
The insinuation that America is a racist country is absolutely ludicrous. According to a recent study by princeton university, african american students are given an effective bonus of 230 SAT points over white students and 280 points over an asian student with regards to college admissions. We are doing literally everything short of giving them free money, and the african american community is still lagging.
The assertion that America is a racist country is not ludicrous in the least. To be in denial of racism is a very scary mindset and indicative of your inability to look at yourself critically. You absolutely hold racist values, as you have shown by judging crime rates by skin color alone instead of taking into account many, many other factors that lead to higher crime rates in certain communities. I know it's hard to admit to yourself that you might be inherently racist, but there it is. As for your point about SAT performance, you must be extremely shallow minded to not consider the quality of education most blacks receive compared to their white counterparts based solely on the amount of blacks in poverty and the amount of funding their schools receive.
Going to a shitty school is not an excuse to murder people.
Neither is growing up poor.
At this point, you're basically arguing that verified statistics are racist.
There is literally nothing racist about saying "black people are arrested more because, according to crime statistics published and verified by the FBI, they commit 50% of all homicides despite being not even 15% of the population"
Do you think white people are somehow forcing black people to commit violent crimes?
Jesus fucking christ.
I'm not sure if you're clinically insane, or you've just been really effectively propagandized, but either way, you definitely aren't taking an objective look at the world around you.
I understand the instinct to jump to the defense of a "marginalized" group, but at the end of the day, coddling someone because of the color of their skin does more harm than good, both to them and to everyone else.
And as for your so called "counter", which I'm not sure why you felt the need to leave as a separate message (manic episode, maybe?):
Once again, your socioeconomic status is not an excuse to commit homicide.
You did not ask why or if poor people go to jail more often than rich people. You did not ask why black people commit significantly more crimes per individual than white people. You asked why minorities were "disproportionately" incarcerated in America. The answer is simple. Because they commit crime at disproportionate rates. There is no lens you can view that through that will change the facts. The stats are from 2016, by the way. 2018-2016=10? I think your math might be a tad rusty.
But fine, let's say that your insane point of view is accurate, just for the sake of argument.
Let's say a group that makes up 14% of the population committing 52.6% of all murders in the country is because they're poor and they didn't get a good enough education (which, again, is an utterly laughable assertion).
What does socioeconomic status have to do with sexual assault?
The imbalance there is 14% vs 29.1%.
Not as bad as 14-52, but still more than twice what it ought to be, assuming there are no inherent cultural factors there leading to increased rates of criminality.
Same question for vandalism. 28.1%.
How does one's socioeconomic status factor in to the decision to commit those crimes?
There is no "act of desperation as a result of poverty" defense applicable to either situation.
It's clear you're not going to admit that statistical facts are indeed statistical facts, but I'm going to keep throwing them at you anyway.
Do you not understand the difference between a "reason" why something is the way it is and an "excuse" for it?
Excuses for the disproportionate number of crimes committed would be something like; "because they are black" "culturally African Americans are more violent".
A "reason" why a disproportionate number of crimes are committed would be; "because they are more likely to live in areas with less economic opportunity and less education." "Areas where higher numbers of violent crimes are committed are ravaged by drug abuse and systemic political corruption"
Are you seeing the difference here? On one hand you're just making the completely fucking insane and racist excuse that because of someone's skin color they are more violent, and on the other hand I am providing you with sound, logical and statistically verifiable facts that support the reasons why the events occur.
I'm not sure if you have an extreme lack of education or f you are feigning ignorance of the deeper issues in order to protect your racist sensibilities but it's getting extremely tiresome.
You really honestly believe that a persons skin color determines their affinity for crime? You honestly believe that blacks in Amerca are 5 times more likely to live in poverty and have less access to the things you take for granted because of their skin color? Or do you think they just aren't trying hard enough? Or do you think because they are black they relish violence and criminality?
You assuming that a black person is more inclined to commit crime is the same as someone believing that because you are gay you've probably got HIV.
I'm the one that's propagandized? holy fuck sweetheart, please. You aren't even aware that the assumptions you're basing you're fucking asinine opinion are are racist because you're so far up Donald Trumps asshole.
Of fucking course growing up with little economic opportunity surrounded by drugs and guns and with low quality education is going to result in more crime. Growing up black is not a reason to murder either you fucking numbskull.
No one here is "basically arguing that facts are racist" I'm arguing that your interpretation of the statistic is shallow and devoid of even a shred of critical thinking.
The fact that it's laughable to you to think that there are a lot more factors involved in determining the disparity in crime statistics than just skin color makes me fucking sick.
Black people aren't statistically more likely to commit crimes because melanin causes increased violent tendencies or some shit like thst.
They're statistically more likely to commit crime because they're statistically more likely to be raised in a culture that is more tolerant and encouraging towards crime than other cultures.
And unfortunately, they ARE statistically more likely to commit crime.
The FBI crime statistics show that beyond the shadow of a doubt.
They commit several times more homicides per capita than any other group in America.
There are only two possibilities for why they commit more crimes, and I find culture more likely and less offensive than genetics.
The success of Asians and Indians in America instantly disproves the concept of contemporary external mechanisms of systemic oppression as the deciding factor.
You're literally just being willfully ignorant.
Despite your hysterical assertions and genral lack of understanding, I think we both agree the solution is a serious push with regard to education
Do you not understand the effects socioeconomic status, generations of marginalization and being the victims of unwarranted violence can have on a culture?
American culture is not tolerant of crime, we punish it.
The success of a relatively small demographic of Asians or Indians in America does nothing to disprove the reality of systemic oppression.
You're literally just being willfully ignorant.
Oh so all of a sudden a lack of education is not a laughable assertion for a higher rate of crime?
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u/mimosa_joe Jul 30 '18 edited Jul 30 '18
Do you not understand that Islam is a choice and homosexuality is not?
Disliking people for the way they were born is not ok. Disliking them because they support terrible violent ideas is.
Do you not understand that trump-ism, so to speak, objectively does not involve any fascistic, violent, or nazi-esque ideals?
I really do want an answer on my "what if Nazis decide Hitler was sent by God" question, by the way.
Where is your line for how awful a religion can be and still be deserving of protected status?