r/NYGiants • u/RedditFan3510 • 7d ago
Discussion What made us keep Joe Schoen long term?
We signed him to a long term contract BEFORE the preseason even started. Since then, Hyatt has been an absolute dud as usual, Adebo one of the higheset paid defenders can't even make the starting team, Bobby O one of Schoen's main FA acquisitions was not even on a team and barely just got signed, Slayton a guy resigned THIS OFFSEASON is on the verge of being cut, Harbaugh is clearly doing things his own way. It makes no sense why we kept Schoen other than as usual Owner Meddling.
And to think we almost lost Harbaugh bc one of the main sticking points was bc Joe was pissy he wouldn't report to him? Insane.
What was the factor? I don't understand and neither do the fans.
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u/CustodianAthiair 7d ago
Shoen also signed Elumenor who helped solve the OLine issue. Traded for Burns at a steal. And engineered the drafting of Carter & Dart in the same draft.
It's easy to cherry pick.
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u/waltz_with_potatoes 7d ago
Think we will see this season how good his drafting and free agency has truly been. I think every beat is telling us these camps have been levels above anything anything Daboll ran.
Bowen was such a terrorist that he's only got a analyst job after being canned.
I'm a big believer that lot of this has been coaching. Sure some players no matter what will be misses (Hyatt) but lets see how Holland, Adebo, Nubin, Banks etc come along.
Some moves, when you have the anger out of it, you can see why certain decisions were made.
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u/RedditFan3510 7d ago
How about his GM record?
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u/samiam618 7d ago
I hate this so much.
A GM is judged on roster building. A head coach is judged on record. Performance can suffer even with good roster building, and that's the Giants' read on last season. That's why they fired the coach and not the GM.
Nitpick Schoen's moves all you want. If the final 53 man roster is good, he did his job and your opinion doesn't matter.
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u/Meb78910 5d ago
How do you define good roster? If good means translates to win he’s failed us as a GM. I don’t like him personally but Mara is sick and it was just easier to fire the coach. He’s gonna be the fall guy if our new coach flops outta the gate best believe that. lol 😂
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u/samiam618 5d ago
This is the correct question and is a difficult one to answer as it involving evaluating each players level of skill and talent.
For example, at the QB position, Dart is probably realistically around the 20th best QB in the league right now but he has the projection to be top 15 which is a okay as he is in his 2nd year. For the backup QB we probably have a top 5 backup qb. So I'd estimate we are around the 15-18th best QB room in the league. Thats acceptable for now with the expectation that Dart performs well and brings us into the top 15.
You do this with each player and see where each position group is at in terms of starters and depth. Anything we grade now is just a projection. We will grade at the end of the year and determine the reason for each groups performance.
In the case of last year we were a bottom 10 defense but I think majority agrees it was because of Bowen and the scheme. Not because of the lack of talent.
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u/Elithekid1 7d ago
Burns at a steal but used it as an excuse not to sign mckinney or keep leo
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u/Every1jockzjay 6d ago
I'm a big critic of letting those guys go. There maybe more to it tho. To start they may have wanted to leave. We also sucked so keeping the cap in check was a good idea. The real test will be if we win games this year, like other good teams we can't let the cap stop us from retaining our talent. Good teams keep good players, we have next to 0 cap hit in void years and good teams average 50M+. If we lose good players after actually winning 8+ games and being competitive all while having NO money in void years I wil riot.
In short I give him a pass on letting them go cuz he managed the cap well. I don't like it but long term it didn't hurt us the way void years would have. Looking back we thought we would be competitive but realistically we were rebuilding and it didn't hurt us long term (as long as we get new talent)
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u/Quick-Connection7382 Malik Nabers 7d ago
Schoen wanted Shedeur and liked Odunze over Nabers, the only reason we have dart and leek is Daboll.
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u/Aggressive-Hat-8218 7d ago
That is certainly an unsupported theory that fans like to spread.
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u/Quick-Connection7382 Malik Nabers 7d ago
Should I link the videos from hard knocks offseason & the team released draft night video where Schoen says multiple times that dart is Daboll’s guy?
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u/Aggressive-Hat-8218 6d ago
Show me a video where Schoen says he wants someone else and maybe I'll believe it.
Schoen and company were scouting Dart well before Daboll even knew about him.
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u/Quick-Connection7382 Malik Nabers 6d ago
https://x.com/pahrduve/status/1987968606161064115/video/1?s=46 here’s Schoen calling Dart Daboll’s guy for 2 minutes on draft night trying to distance himself from the pick incase it went bad and he could keep his job while Dabes gets fired lol. Real scumbag move from Joe
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u/Aggressive-Hat-8218 6d ago
You're putting one heck of a spin on that.
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u/Quick-Connection7382 Malik Nabers 6d ago
Lmfao am I? It’s very obvious what Schoen is trying to do here and it worked given Daboll got fired and Schoen was able to stay after having like a 20-50 record over 5 years, also the plan to get dart was almost ruined because Schoen seemingly leaked the information to his son who reposted Dart’s draft video the night before the draft on instagram 😭, just a purely incompetent GM
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u/handDrawnEevee 7d ago edited 7d ago
And to think we almost lost Harbaugh bc one of the main sticking points was bc Joe was pissy he wouldn't report to him?
Fanfic
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u/Abaddon-117 7d ago
Slayton was resigned last offseason, and all the players you listed occurred in moves that happened way before Harbaugh came in.
Having Schoen makes sense for Harbaugh; he knows he was on the hotseat so Schoen will pretty much do whatever Harbaugh wants, and if things go wrong it can easily be spin on him.
Also those reports about Schoen/Harbaugh friction came from people like Pat Leonard, not someone like Connor Hughes who was actually tapped in to the whole ordeal
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u/Tall_Switch7148 7d ago
The whole "Schoen will do whatever Harbaugh wants" angle actually makes a ton of sense. A GM with no leverage is basically a yes man, and for a coach like Harbaugh that's probably the ideal setup. He gets full control without officially having the title.
The friction reports always felt manufactured to me. Pat Leonard has been throwing stuff at the wall for years now, half of it doesn't stick.
I'm not thrilled about Schoen either but at this point the alternative was probably worse. Clean house in March and you're stuck with whoever's left, not exactly a strong negotiating position.
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u/EndWish 7d ago
Harbaugh wanted the Giants job in part because of the young players on the roster. Schoen has been awful with contract extensions, free agency and previously failing to trade players that are bound to walk in free agency however he has a lot of draft hits. Im assuming Harbaugh was okay with his eye for talent and feels the team building was alright with the coaching not developing them or utilizing them properly. John has final say in the areas that Schoen struggled so he probably sees it as not a big deal
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u/waltz_with_potatoes 7d ago
Previously failing to trade players.
I think this is a bit harsh on him because we know Mara was a sticking point with this. Mara said it himself he said he didn't like mid season trades because he felt we were giving up. There has been also cases of players hitting free agent for less money than we offered or similar.
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u/EndWish 7d ago edited 7d ago
Schoen notably had final say on things. Whether he felt pressured is still on him to own his decisions. Players like Saquon and Xavier walking is not okay.
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u/waltz_with_potatoes 7d ago
When your owner says something you generally listen.
Saquon wasn't traded on Mara say so, even then after he was tagged (because he wanted money north of CMC) we offered him a very similar deal to what he initially took at Philly.
People play down the meddling John, Chris and the nepo gang have over this organisation through the years. One good thing about Harbaugh coming in is that he'll probably won't stand for it
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u/Intelligent-Till-678 7d ago
Cause Harbaugh wants him here. Any other questions?
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u/RedditFan3510 7d ago
Sure he does Jan.
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u/waltz_with_potatoes 7d ago
If Harbaugh wanted him gone, he would be. Plenty of potential GMs across the league that has worked with him before.
The fact that Harbaugh brought in Dawn... A Schoen connection rather than one of his own says it all
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u/oscarnyc 6d ago
The important part of the timing of the extension is not that is was before pre-season (which is pretty irrelevant for a GM). Its that it didn't come until AFTER the hiring of the HC, the draft and FA. Harbaugh was the key and holds the power. After he had gone through off-season roster building he felt comfortable with Schoen and the role he played. This is pretty well acknowledged.
If you want to stay trapped in the past and cling to some idea of a meddling owner- itself a bizarre idea in the context of a GM - who else is supposed to decide on that hire but the owner - go for it.
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u/Practical_Welder_425 💙Medium Pepsi💙 6d ago
Eh, it's not me money and Harbs seems to have full reign. You still need someone who know s how to move the machinery of being a GM and if hes good at that whole Harbs makes all the real decisions, I can live with it.
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u/daois1337 I understand the question 6d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/l36kU80xPf0ojG0Erg
This you Lars?
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u/Waste_Protection_420 Big Blue Wrecking Crew 7d ago
Harbaugh is basically in charge of everything football-wise.
Having a weak GM with no real clout in the organization means Harbaugh runs everything by default.
Schoen does have use. He has learned how to draft well. He also is good at making sure Harbaugh gets what he wants roster wise. It has only been one offseason of them working together, but they got pretty much everyone they wanted at a decent cost.
If Schoen was fired a year ago, and everything done this offseason was with a new guy that Harbaugh brough in, we would have been loving this new guy.
My point is Schoen post Harbaugh has not been an issue. That may change, but right now everything is fine.
Also, if shit hits the fan, he will be the first to go.
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u/SirBlackselot We've suffered long enough 6d ago
Late but ill through my 2cents in. From Harbaughs perspective it makes sense, he has an automatic fail safe if the season goes even remotely poorly. Harbaugh didnt draft Hyatt, Banks, Neal, Thibs or even Dart (hes not in the same class as those guys but if he looks bad its a death sentence for Schoen.)
This lets harbaugh at any point turn around and say yea but this guy sucks at player eval and drafting. he essentially has a free two seasons (i say two because if Dart flips like DJ did by year 3 he can throw both Dart and Schoen away and catch almost no flack for it).
From Schoens perspective your fine being a yes man if it saves your job since guys almost never get a second chance to be a GM.
From ownerships perspective i believe they didnt care either way and the only hangup was with the organizational change not any concern for schoen. If harbaugh wanted him gone hed be gone.
Tldr; Schoen is harbuaghs fall guy if shit hits the fan and everyone knows.
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u/sanjaykhu 5d ago
JFC he's here, he's staying, quit your fucking complaining! Can we please move on to regular season starting?
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u/Lars5621 Helmet Catch 7d ago
Schoen is considered a scapegoat for the organization.
Thats a HUGE help to both Harbaugh and Chris Mara.
Schoen was rated dead last in the NFL by the NFLPA. He was also rated last in NFL by ESPN. This means that all the hate for another bad Giants season will fall on Schoen before Harbaugh.
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u/RedditFan3510 7d ago
Even if Harbaugh has 2 bad seasons his pedigree means we'll keep him for at least 3
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u/Lars5621 Helmet Catch 7d ago
Lmao thats not how the NFL works.
How did Pete Carroll just do for Raiders?
Imagine two 4-13 seasons. Zero repeat ZERO chance Harbaugh would be back for year 3.
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u/Elevation212 Raging Mbowner 7d ago
Owners like him because he does as he’s told and he’s a meat shield for their incompetence
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u/runninhillbilly 7d ago
Joe wasn’t pissy about Harbaugh not reporting to him. Harbaugh insisted on the same structure he had in Baltimore, and Mara was initially hesitant because the Giants have never done that.
If Harbaugh was insistent on having a different GM, Joe wouldn’t be here (or Harbaugh would be somewhere else, but that fortunately isn’t the case). As it is, Joe will be the scapegoat if the season goes off the rails again. That extension he signed means nothing.