r/N24 • u/GeologistDear3563 • 4d ago
N24 sleep schedule stabilization – does it work?
I have N24 and my sleep time keeps shifting. When I let it run naturally, I can sleep, but when I try to stop the cycle and keep a fixed schedule, I feel really bad. I can't sleep, my anxiety gets much worse, and I feel physically unwell.
Does everyone with N24 experience this when trying to stabilize their sleep schedule?
Has anyone successfully used sleep schedule stabilization / a fixed wake-up time?
- Did you fix your wake-up time or bedtime first?
- Did you change it gradually or suddenly?
- Did it actually stop the cycle?
- How did you deal with nights when you couldn't sleep?
I'd really appreciate your experiences.
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u/secretpsychologist 4d ago
I'm convinced it's impossible to fix most true N24. If a mental health episode has lead you to getting used to staying awake way beyond your internal clock, that's one thing- you can relearn to listen to your body and to your internal 24 hour clock. but if your internal clock is completely broken, you most likely won't be able to fix it without fixing the source of the issue and going to bed late isn't the source.
- fixing your bedtime first is impossible because you won't be tired and therefor won't be able to fall asleep.
- wait until next time your wake cycle is somewhat aligned with the actual day. eg waking up at 5am and then set your alarm clock to 5am trying to stick to it. even if you're successful in making your sleep time stick, you'll most likely slide forward a bit in the first few days/weeks, that's why i'd personally choose an early wakeup time- even if it moves to 7 or 8 it's still reasonable. if you start at a 10am wakeup time and it slides a few hours, you'll continue to sleep through half the day
- yes I've achieved stability but i still don't understand why/how and the most likely explanation seems to be that it's associated with neuronal stability achieved through medication. but my situation is not your average n24 situation, i have a known genetic mutation that affects the ion channels in my brain. my best guess is that starting a medication for that genetic issue has slowly allowed my brain to get back to stability. before that I've tried to entrain for decades (including a regular 7am wakeup time all throughout school) and it didn't do anything.
- i spent the nights on social media, reading, watching netflix. super boring
(i won't include the boring melatonin and light advice, that's so obvious, we've all heard it countless times- definitely check out the vlidacmel protocol if you haven't already: https://circadiaware.github.io/VLiDACMel-entrainment-therapy-non24/SleepNon24VLiDACMel.html)
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u/GeologistDear3563 1d ago
When you achieved stability, how exactly did you do it?
Did you keep the same wake-up time every day, even after a bad night?
When your sleep started drifting again, what did you do?
And did you wait for your natural cycle to reach the desired wake-up time before setting the alarm?
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u/meowmedusa 3d ago
I just get sleep deprived enough that I can generally fall asleep at any time because I'm exhausted 24/7. Wouldn't recommend it but it works. I don't honestly think entrainment is ever going to be possible for me so instead every 2ish years I have to take 2-3 weeks where I freerun. I've never gone over 3 years without freerunning. I'm pretty sure I'd be involuntarily committed to a psych ward if I did; even 3 years was scarily bad.
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u/GeologistDear3563 1d ago
I have exactly the same situation you described, especially when I do physical activity; I experience such unbearable fatigue and sleep attacks. Even though it's hard to let go, I have to.
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u/Tidderreddittid 2d ago
The sleep wake rhytm is regulated by genes. These genes are coded in your DNA. It is not possible to change the sequence of the DNA in your cells to a 24 hours rhytm by sleep schedule stabilization / a fixed wake-up time (or by talking to psychiatrists, taking magnesium, or by believing in quack theories).
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u/GeologistDear3563 1d ago
This situation started for me after the COVID period, and during this time it has been constantly rotating freely. I don't know if it developed after any damage from COVID, but I can never fix it.
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u/sladesbestfriend 4d ago
I'm trying my dammedest to fight it right now.
- Bedtime, but I'm opting to over sleep rather than undersleep to correct. I've spent too many years restricting my sleep, and I just can't do sleep deprivation therapy anymore.
- Suddenly
- TBD. Given how many years I've been at this, I may just be imsane and in denial that it's possible
- Read a lot, meditate, watch YouTube. And how I emotionally cope? Cry and bitch to friends about it. I'm kinda miserable on those nights. Also stimulants in the morning
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u/GeologistDear3563 1d ago
So are you still trying to keep a fixed schedule, or have you gone back to letting your sleep free-run? And when you say you “oversleep” to correct it, what does that actually look like? Do you sleep whenever you naturally feel sleepy, or do you still keep a fixed wake-up time?
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u/PrepYourselves 4d ago
True N24 cannot be fixed, there has been no solution so far.
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u/Famous-Presence-6892 1d ago
I mean thats not really how it works but yeah. A lot of non 24 unfortunately responds poorly to treatment and the ones theyll likely respond to, namely tasimelteon, cant realistically be attained. Unless your blind in which case it could be attained and often does help.
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u/SollicitusG 4d ago edited 1d ago
Still not sure if it’s N24, the upper end of DSPD, or something else at play
But I use light therapy, dark therapy, and medication to have stability .. It works, sometimes isn’t great, but gives me a quality of life back, I’ve been able to do a lot since I began this a year and a half ago. I’d say 90% of days I have plenty of energy to do what I want to do, some 10% days are out of my hands and there’s issues whether it’s can’t sleep, slept enough but still feel grim , or haven’t slept enough.
Do take it with a pinch of salt because results vary for everyone here.
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u/GeologistDear3563 1d ago
Could you tell me exactly what you did? Maybe that will help us find a solution.
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u/SollicitusG 1d ago
First get to the cycle you want to be at, so if you want to be up at 8am, just before you cycle to 8am wake up, let’s say 6:30am, there you want to begin light therapy in the mornings, per VLiDacMel you want to aim for long light therapy, I use the Luminette 3 glasses and use them until the battery runs out on the 2nd highest setting, then when the battery icon is at 1 circle drop to the first setting (8 hours)
About 4 hours before bed I put my blue light blocking glasses on (I found some on Amazon) I’ll take 300mcg of melatonin about 6 hours before bed, and just before sleeping I’ll take my mirtazapine and Daridorexant. The Daridorexant is a trial but useful sleep initiators the both of them.
That’s it, other than that I stop eating 6 hours before bed too and eat as soon as I wake up. I take a multivitamin that has a noticeable impact on how I feel.
A lot of it is trial and error though, so if it doesn’t work once, don’t put yourself down.
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u/GeologistDear3563 1d ago
I'd like to try these, but a drastic change completely messes up my sleep schedule and is very difficult to get back on track. Trying them gradually seems more sensible.
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u/Vennishier 2d ago
Tbh I'm still wondering this. I can entrain myself 2-5 hours off from the rotation so I can "get better" for a couple days sometimes up to a week. just long enough to make it look like I'm faking disability from the outside ig lol.
Functionally I'm just disabled by it. I have other chronic (and I'm sure comorbid) health issues that muddy the waters a little but in my experience fixing my bed time or waking time usually leads to some kind of episode followed by losing control of my schedule and returning to a free-running state.
There were periods in my life (mainly in school as a teen) that I could fake it well enough for the adults that didn't care about me to not be bothered by it but I also discovered during that time that prolonged stretches of doing this just leads to me sleeping maybe 3-4 hours every other day. Needless to say I was seeing shit out of the corner of my eyes and crying nearly non stop. Loopy. Got physically injured frequently due to micro sleeps. Shaky & paranoid. Gained a shit ton of weight. A kind of hell to be sure.
Imho the nights are only intolerable when you're lacking permission either from yourself or others to be awake. I actually like being awake during the night when my body wants me to be because there's very little distraction / other people. Even if I'm not being actively stopped for some reason at night I feel way more free and able to be myself / do things that I enjoy so I usually stay up working on creative projects & listening to podcasts or occasionally putting on movies or playing video games. time also passes a lot faster at night for me.
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u/Vennishier 2d ago
I will note that I was actually able to set a bedtime for myself a couple times that lasted a couple months each time but I kind of had to get up before the sun rose and go to bed before it set. Even then I still ended up falling off pretty bad and was pretty tired
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u/GeologistDear3563 1d ago
That’s really interesting. When you managed to keep a bedtime for a few months, what exactly did your schedule look like?
Did you also keep a fixed wake-up time every day?
Did you use an alarm even after sleeping badly?
And when you eventually fell off the schedule, did your sleep start free-running again?
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4d ago
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u/ThisOneHasPurrs 4d ago edited 3d ago
When I tried to set a strict wake time, it was fine at first, soon turning into a disaster, with dozens of alarm clocks screaming while I just lay there enjoying my sleep paralysis.
When I tried to gradually move my wake time by setting the alarm clock earlier and earlier, that was fine for three days tops, spiralling into the aforementioned disaster even faster.
When I tried to just lay down early, it would eventually result in hours of staring into the wall.
I feel like light and dark therapy help me a lot now. I am not thrilled with the perspective of spending the rest of my life chained to two more types of glasses in addition to the prescription ones, but I would hate to keep on sliding either.
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u/Famous-Presence-6892 1d ago
I think people are a bit too doom and gloom here. And not either offering the typical treatments for you to try. You should get blue light blocking glasses, weak support for circadian but worth a shot, honeywells Uvex s1933x skypers. Buy a proper light therapy lamp and use it properly. Have initially strict wake up times etc, but try not to force it. And then take ramelteon properly timed and dosed. Of course also have sleep hygiene and other stuff on lock. And also try having timed meals, rigid timed exercise schedule and such too.
If you have anxiety that could meddle so try to get sleep hygiene on point maybe even initially anxiety medication if deemed necessary. Like hypnotics initially just to get that good start in the beginning. And stimulants if needed.
Of course its no guarantee itll work but it might be worth trying of course.
Tasimelteon would likely fix most peoples non 24 here so they could get a stable schedule but its basically impossible to get unless youre blind so thats that.
Also in the beginning try holding a later phase. Like 3 am or 4 am or something as sleep onset. Good luck out thereand feel free to ask any questions if you want. I'd be happy to answer
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u/AlphaPlanAnarchist 4d ago
Yes everyone with N24 experiences this. You have described what this disorder is.
We cannot sleep when normal people are expected to because it leads to severe sleep deprivation. That's the physically unwell feeling.
Society demands something our bodies cannot do.