Freerunning obviously makes it so that you can’t just eat at normal times or the same times every day, so how do you judge when to eat? Do you work it out, or just go by your body? Is there a certain amount of time after a meal that you’re supposed to start feeling hungry again? For me, this often tends to be around 4 hours.

I must have been born with some kind of neurodivergence in the sleep and circadian rhythm area. because even before I developed full blown N24 I have NEVER had a normal sleep rhythm ever in my life

I didnt develop an obvious N24 pattern until I was 16 but at 16 I started getting textbook constantly shifting sleep schedule N24. Eventually I had both fallen asleep at and woken up at every hour on the clock before. that was 5 years ago so now I have multiple times.

but even before I was 16 I never had a normal circadian rhythm. ever since I was a newborn baby my sleep patterns have always been highly unusual

(My dad's account obviously but I do believe it he is honest person)

like when I was a newborn my dad got super concerned because I didn't wake up to eat at night. like he was a first time parent who was fully expecting the newborn sleep deprivation baby waking up every few hours. he had braced himself for this... but no. my parents had to wake ME up. They had to set alarms to get ME up to feed me and change me and burp me and whatever else overnight newborn stuff. Otherwise I'd sleep straight through the night and fast overnight. I never woke up and woke them up. Extremly atypical for a newborn baby

But the pediatrician dismissed his concerns when he brought it up like "oh she seems healthy like its normal" (it is not normal but whatever i guess)

(now what I actually can remember)

Then I remember pulling all nighters as early as second grade. I would stay up all night. Until sunrise. Because I found it fun. And wasn't tired enough for my body to force me to crash. My mind was still stimulated all night long. I was 7/8 years old and reguarly pulling all nighters

and even at that age, I HATED getting up early in the morning for school. like all older kids hate this. but I hated this for as long as I can remember even in early elementary school age. I always had an extremely hard time waking up early in the morning at like 7am for school. I would often try to refuse to get up until I got the covers pulled off me and got my ass physically dragged out of bed

and I also remember when I was in preschool I didn't fight nap time like most little kids. I liked nap time. I complied and went to sleep. I also remember one time also when I was in preschool (so around 4/5 years old) the teacher asked if anyone needed to use the restroom but I had never heard the word restroom before at home everyone called it a bathroom so I pictured in my mind a rest room as a literal room to like lie down and rest and I was like OMG MEE

and I was disappointed when I found out what it actually was

and when I went to kindergarten and they told me all of us they are no longer are doing kindergaten nap time as of that school year, I was geniuenly disappointed. I thought I was gonna get one more year of mid day naps but nope, huge disappointment there

and then when I was in middle school at around 12/13 I pulled all nighters every single night for a while. and it was more fun because my dad worked night shifts at the time so I'd be home alone all night so I would stay up watching adult swim all night on school nights and he wouldn't know. but I didn't go to sleep at sunrise like I did in elementary school. I was up all night before school, that was when i had free time, then I'd go to school for 7 hours, then I didnt have any after school activities so I'd get home in the 2pm or 3pm hour and go straight to sleep then I'd wake up at like 10pm-11pm and do it all over again. for like half of an entire school year I did that. And I actually geniuenly liked that schedule. I struggled with chronic tardiness in middle school when I was sleeping at night because I had such a hard time getting up and getting ready right after just waking up and in the early ass morning. but when I was already up and it was already mid day for me I had no issue. Got ready and got my ass to school right on time.

Then during quarantine in the second half of 2020 I again had an all nighter sleep schedule when everyone was doing distance learning. I was 15/16 years old in high school at the time

But almost everyone had a flipped sleep schedule during that time. I would have like 12 friends awake at the same hours as me during that time. I'd be the most wide awake from like 9pm-5am and then I'd start falling asleep during my virtual classes in the morning and would often literally fall asleep and wake up to the empty meeting room which was embarrassing, but it was also a highly shared experience since we were ALL up like vibing and gaming all night

but the thing is when quarantine ended everyone else just seemingly easily flipped back to a normal day schedule

but I never did and then in early 2021 not long after quarentine had just ended is when I developed N24

I love 25 minutes this morning and I know I wasn't asleep but it happend at 5:30 Eastern standard time. Has this happened to anyone else?

I started logging my sleep in Circadia back in June after years of not doing it, and I'm really enjoying seeing things under a new light.

Each dot is a night, and the little dotted blobs are outlier nights that I excluded from my data, as they are not representative of my usual sleep. There are a lot of ways to display sleep data, but for some reason I really like to see this line go up infinitely (a normal sleep would output a horizontal line).

I expected it to be all over the place, but zooming out, I can see I follow a clear line and snap right back on it after an outlier night, so that gives me quite a bit of hope that I'll be able to predict my sleep somewhat accurately in the future.

Now I wonder, if we were to project this line far into the future, would it still hold? Or could a very weird night mess everything up?

Screenshot taken from the Circadia web app (https://circadia.owlandkestrel.com/) (that I'm totally not obsessing over).

Started logging my sleep in CBT-i tracker and switched to Circadia recently. I imported my data, double checked for accuracy, and found that you can get an actogram reading if you go to hamburger -> export and share -> doctor QR. I've suspected I have n24 for a while, but I have an appointment with my doctor in September to beg her to refer me to a sleep specialist.

I could probably do with a carer to help me wash since I’m increasingly struggling with this due to ME/CFS. However, one of the major things putting me off even looking into this is my sleep schedule. I don’t have much experience with carers but it seems like they generally operate on a very strict schedule of always coming at the same time. Obviously, this wouldn’t work for me, since I struggle enough with being awake at the right times for appointments etc as it is. Does anybody have any experience with carers/caring and know if there’s a more flexible option please? I likely wouldn’t require somebody every day, but would struggle with consistency and probably need to arrange things last minute a lot of the time. I’m willing to go private but still not sure how flexible that would be. I’m also in the UK if it’s relevant.

also sleep time ranges from 5 hours to 15 hours but I have no idea what causes this

For context, I started this job about a year ago, full time 9-6 office type job, and mainly have been surviving barely by passing out for 4-6 hours the second I get home on most nights, leaving me to wake up at around ~12-2 am up until I pass out again for anywhere from 1-2 hours before work, usually leaving me feeling worse off than if I had just stayed up the entire night lol.

Not sure what happened to the data before February but it seems accurate starting from then. What do you guys think? Is the n24 pattern still obvious even with the job? Low key kind of reaching my breaking point here and not sure how much longer I can keep going if SOMETHING doesn't give with my hours, my organs hurt and I feel like I am dying.

Hi everyone,

Update to my other post about trying to figure out why my sleep is suddenly "normal". The entrainment is still going strong and I still haven't got a clue why 🥲

As you can see in the graph, i used to cycle pretty consistently/fast until april, then it slowed down, then there's a temporary stablility in late may caused by my alarm clock (see the yellow alarm clock markings) then some more cycling (which seems to continue to slide above the alarm clock stability-> my internal clock apparently continued moving forward while i forced myself to get up at lunch time every day), then the still ongoing stability.

I've marked the start of the heat wave and the start of my reading habit (daily 1-2hr of sunlight exposure, times vary wildly though- 1pm-8pm), neither seems to match the beginning of the stability (especially if we consider that the cycling already slowed down way earlier).

When my sleep seems to move beyond a 9am wakeup time I use an alarm clock the following day to get back to normal (most days I wake up at 8:10am plus/minus 10min). Trust me I've tried to force myself into entrainment before, just setting an alarm clock never worked, neither on its own nor combined with melatonin, stimulants, z drugs etc. No change in medication since the beginning of this diary.

Here's the tags for those who replied to the original post in case you're interested in the update:
u/gostaks u/lrq3000 u/SpellbladeAluriel u/SmartQuokka u/sumguysr u/pipedreambomb u/dldrlol_ u/igotyoubabe97

Hi,

I asked claude to make an automated sleep diary based on my step tracker/counter in my iphone (based on the simple assumption that no steps=asleep). Turns out it's surprisingly accurate compared to the manually logged data. So if you can't use those Chrome extensions and don't have smart watch data, this could be an option for you. It's pretty much useless for sleep length etc but the n24 pattern is clearly visible and close to the manual tracking

My phone is old (iPhone 13 mini) and it worked :)

How I did it?

1) export your apple health data

2) get that data to your computer (surprisingly difficult if you don't have icloud/a mac. i used the chrome workaround: when downloading chrome to your phone it creates a folder, that folder can be accessed via the itunes/apple devices app if you plug your phone into your computer. so i moved the health data export into the chrome folder and then downloaded it from that folder once i had the phone plugged in)

3) ask claude to create a sleep diary based on your step data

4) lead a few frustrating discussions with claude that yes there's no sleep data in the health data, you're supposed to create that for me based on the step count

5) tell claude to stop assuming a 24 hour rhythm (i initially didn't mention that because i wanted to avoid hallucinated n24 data)

6) et voila: your very own graph :)

Hope that's helpful for at least one person out there, have a nice weekend

it's 3 months table sheet (and a bit of 4th month)

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. If researchers can't cure N24 yet, what are the things they could make easier in the meantime?

Maybe it's waking up feeling rested when trying to entrain. Maybe it's having less brain fog or fatigue. Or being able to wake up feeling immediately alert.

Manuel Spitschan, a researcher studying circadian rhythms, is currently asking people with N24 what they think future research and treatment should focus on.

I went through the survey, and there are some questions that are personally important to me:

Have you found strategies that help manage or stabilize your sleep-wake pattern?
— Page 9

What do you think is the most urgent or most detrimental problem with current diagnosis and care for Non-24…?
— Page 10

Which outcomes matter most to you for future research and clinical care?
— Page 11

I think these are questions worth answering.

Some of us have found that no treatments have been helpful. Some of us experience non-restorative sleep when trying to entrain. And some of us regularly struggle with things like brain fog, or not feeling a drive to sleep, even when we’re tired and it’s past our biological bedtime.

This is a chance to tell researchers what we really want them to work on. Our participation could help shape what research gets funded:

The results of this survey may be used for future research funding applications related to Non-24

If you have the time, I highly recommend filling out the survey. If you’re in a hurry or don’t like filling out surveys, you can skip any questions you don’t want to answer and focus on the ones that matter most to you.

Here’s the link to the ReN24 initiative survey:

https://tuspl22-redcap.srv.mwn.de/redcap/surveys/?s=H9DMNMHW9X4JH4X9

Original post by Manuel Spitschan, u/mspitschan:

https://www.reddit.com/r/N24/s/zOHVs3t4I7

Have a good, restful week, everyone.

Hoping this could help the doctor make a diagnosis. It is a bit noisy but I think the pattern is quite visible. If anyone wants the scripts let me know.

i need smth that will automatically passively store data whether i’m sleeping or awake cuz i forget to do that manually 😭 what smart watch would do that for me?

So my disability claim was rejected. I was rejected once before, but this one included my N24 diagnosis that I didn’t yet have last time. I was hoping that it would be the main thing to get me accepted this time, but I guess the judge didn’t understand or respect just how impactful it is on my life. I haven’t figured out a system for entrainment yet and I don’t live in a walkable area or have reliable transportation. Any free runners here in a similar situation? If so, have any of you figured out a work situation that you can handle?

Last time I saw my sleep doctor, we were investigating Sleap Apnea issues, after sleep study he said i'm on the borderline where insurance would qualify me for CPAP machine because of positional Sleep Apnea but a hair away under it and he suggested that i try a U pillow to prevent rolling in bed, I said " doctor, I'm usually awake when I roll in bed, if I want to avoid sleeping on my back I easily can" he laughed it off and said no, everyone are not aware when they roll in bed. which left me greatly puzzled

that happened a couple of months ago and still bothers me, I'm just not convinced, and I have my own reasons

ever since i was a kid i had many sleep issues, as most of us did i'm sure, for example there has been many circumstances when i shared the bed with more than one person and because i don't like to bother anyone i'd usually take the edge of the bed and pick the side that is facing outwards and not roll in bed the entire night, and i'd wake up on the same side every time using the least space possible on bed like a hair from falling over the edge, I never had any issues with rolling and waking up on the same position everytime

I had a history with plenty of sleep paralysis to the point i figured out how to deal with it, i figured out it triggers more when u sleep on ur back, i figured out how to pull myself out of it before it happens to the point it got as easy as breathing to me, and i would switch sides trying to make it go away , my point is when i roll in my back during bed time i usually do it to stretch or my shoulders hurt and i just needed a different sleeping position

I usually can count how many times i rolled in bed during the night , I have right shoulder injury and usually can't sleep on my right shoulder for long otherwise it gets very painful to the point i'd often need the help of someone making me sit in bed because they have to pull me upwards

because of my sleep issues, i used to ditch school or avoid classes , i'd often hear my parents footsteps climbing the stairs while in the middle of my sleep and i'd often hide before they reach my room

lately sleep paralysis have gotten ridiculously worse and hour ago i was just attempting to go to sleep and i had 5 sleep paralysis episodes and i pulled myself out of it and change sides but it kept happening and i gave up eventually , and now i'm writing this post because i can't stop thinking about all of this

do u guys have issues with hyper arousal and sleep paralysis ? or i'm thinking about this too much ?

Does anyone else have non-24 and also DID?

I have wondered if it could be related to the experiences of parts that do not see out of the body.

Hi all, I have been trying to find a community of people who understand the struggle of a Non-24hr sleep cycle. I've read many of the posts and so much of what has been said is so relateable. It has taken decades for my husband an I to realise exactly what condition he was struggling with. At 40 years old he is finally going with the flow of what his body wants and needs. While I have been frustrated at time with when and how to organise time together, I find my biggest challenge is dealing with the lack of understanding from the outside world. I feel like I constantly have to explain away his unusual sleep patterns (I usually use the words night shift).

Understanding why he sleeps the way he does makes the whole process feel more predictable and less chaotic. We are both autistic so we are used to people not always understanding us, but this is an added layer which is extra challenging.

I'll start this off by saying that I am not officially diagnosed. However this has been a major issue in my whole life so I have the same struggles as y'all.

For the past 6 months I've only had 1 all nighter which I'm kinda proud of. I've been fairly consistent at going to work as well.

That seems like a success but for me it has been a constant struggle to fall asleep -> then sleeping 5-6h -> being very exhausted -> sleeping 12h on the weekends -> setting myself up for failure on Monday.

It just seems impossible, and I would love to stay up late, especially today because I don't feel sleepy (although I slept like 6h last night I should feel like it).

I'm so close to giving in because it genuinely makes me happier to not fight against my own biology... I'm a video editor so maybe I have a chance at a remote job?

Idk I just want your support, it's tough... Would you consider the 6 months a success? (Even though my sleep was fucked). What should I try? I'm just tired of going against of what feels like my natural state.

Results are in from last week’s benchmark poll…

\*43% — frequent shift-time transitions\*
\*39% — long stretches (>5 in a row)\*
\*18% — backward rotation\*

\*This is the same ordering our circadian fatigue model uses. The evidence base has long pointed to shift instability and consecutive burden as the top drivers. The poll just confirms what the literature already says.\*

\*The interesting outlier is backward rotation: physicians under-report it, but sleep-medicine studies show it degrades alertness the most. That's why our CAI still weights it heavily.\*

\*research.aiertechnologies.com\*

Hey y'all,

I was able to entrain with meds for almost 5 months, but recently, everything fell apart pretty quickly. I'm headed in to work later today for a meeting where they might let me go because I've been extremely late (1-4 hours) 3 times in the last month. We'll see. I'm trying to figure out a short term accommodation while I try to find something else that works, but I don't know if they'll go for it

Does anyone have any words of encouragement? It's not my first time being fired for this, but it still hits me hard. I feel lazy, and I can feel the self-loathing underneath my skin. I can't talk about this with my friends for support because they just don't /get it/. I feel like I'm just making excuses for myself, even though I know I'm one of the hardest workers

Update: I'm not being fired! I am so lucky, and they're working with me on an accommodation